NEWS: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

Wireless providers' switch from analog to digital leaves many OnStar,
security customers disconnected
<http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

The network that launched the U.S. wireless industry with brick-size
-- and brick-heavy -- cellphones 24 years ago will switch off in most
of the country next year, leaving a surprising number of users in the
lurch.

...

Verizon Wireless, AT&T Inc. and Alltel Corp. are the largest carriers
that still have analog networks. Alltel will take more time than
Verizon and AT&T to close its network, shutting down in three stages
ending in September.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com>

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope]
"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain]

"John Navas" <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:u204n3tsbidd9q5dc2nk7u49qpchhkhjsv@4ax.com...
> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
quite slim.

Joel Koltner wrote:
> "John Navas" <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
> news:u204n3tsbidd9q5dc2nk7u49qpchhkhjsv@4ax.com...
>> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>
>
> Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
> units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
> it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
> lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
> Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
> of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
> quite slim.

Actually most rural AMPS (Analog) networks will remain operational even
after the FCC AMPS mandate expires. The operators of the rural networks
have already stated this. They have no incentive to drastically reduce
their coverage.

The large carriers that have AMPS networks (AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel)
will turn off most or all of their AMPS networks soon after the mandate
expires. However per FCC rules, they are forbidden from turning off AMPS
in areas where doing so will result in any loss of wireless coverage.

According to the FCC website, "Cellular licensees that intend to
discontinue analog service after February 18, 2008 are permitted, in
lieu of making a revised Cellular Geographic Service Area (CGSA)
showing, to file a certification stating that the discontinuance of
analog service will not result in any loss of wireless coverage
throughout an affected CGSA."

If the FCC actually enforces their own rules (doubtful under a
Republican administration), this virtually guarantees that AMPS service
will remain available in areas where the digital coverage is less than
the AMPS coverage. Personally I could tell the FCC many areas even in
the San Francisco Bay Area where there is only AMPS coverage, but
somehow I think that the FCC has no intention of enforcing its own
rules. Unless someone is out there documenting all the AMPS only areas,
how would anyone challenge the carriers with not abiding by the FCC
rules? The carrier would simply have to say, 'no, we never had any
coverage in xyz area.'

Operators of small rural cellular networks have already indicated that
their AMPS networks will remain intact "for the foreseeable future."
This is because it would cost them a considerable amount of money to
install enough digital towers to duplicate their analog coverage.

The real question is whether Verizon, AT&T, and Alltel will comply with
the FCC rules and keep AMPS up and running in areas where there are not
sufficient digital towers to provide equivalent coverage to AMPS. It's
possible that the urban carriers that also have AMPS networks in rural
settings will just quietly leave the rural portions turned on in order
to remain in compliance with the FCC rules, but they understandably
don't want to get into the position of saying which AMPS areas will
remain on and which will be turned off.

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:29:08 -0800, SMS ???• ?
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in
<4772e33c$0$84246$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>Joel Koltner wrote:
>> "John Navas" <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
>> news:u204n3tsbidd9q5dc2nk7u49qpchhkhjsv@4ax.com...
>>> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>
>>
>> Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
>> units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
>> it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
>> lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
>> Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
>> of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
>> quite slim.
>
>Actually most rural AMPS (Analog) networks will remain operational even
>after the FCC AMPS mandate expires. The operators of the rural networks
>have already stated this. They have no incentive to drastically reduce
>their coverage.

False. They'll reuse the spectrum for far more profitable digital
roaming.

>The large carriers that have AMPS networks (AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel)
>will turn off most or all of their AMPS networks soon after the mandate
>expires. However per FCC rules, they are forbidden from turning off AMPS
>in areas where doing so will result in any loss of wireless coverage.

False. There is no such requirement.

>According to the FCC website, "Cellular licensees that intend to
>discontinue analog service after February 18, 2008 are permitted, in
>lieu of making a revised Cellular Geographic Service Area (CGSA)
>showing, to file a certification stating that the discontinuance of
>analog service will not result in any loss of wireless coverage
>throughout an affected CGSA."

The key word there is "permitted".

>If the FCC actually enforces their own rules (doubtful under a
>Republican administration), this virtually guarantees that AMPS service
>will remain available in areas where the digital coverage is less than
>the AMPS coverage. Personally I could tell the FCC many areas even in
>the San Francisco Bay Area where there is only AMPS coverage,

False. As shown by carriers own coverage maps.

>Operators of small rural cellular networks have already indicated that
>their AMPS networks will remain intact "for the foreseeable future."
>This is because it would cost them a considerable amount of money to
>install enough digital towers to duplicate their analog coverage.

False. Fake quote made up by you.

>The real question is whether Verizon, AT&T, and Alltel will comply with
>the FCC rules and keep AMPS up and running in areas where there are not
>sufficient digital towers to provide equivalent coverage to AMPS. ...

There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
be shut down completely.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

John Navas wrote:
> There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
> be shut down completely.

Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.

BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
few years.

DTC wrote:

> Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
> in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
> to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
> will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.

In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
being shut down.

> BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
> few years.

The rural carriers appear to have installed all the towers that they're
going to install. According to the statements from the rural carriers,
AMPS is going to be around for a very long time. That's good news for
people like me that often travel into those areas.

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:48:56 -0800, SMS ???• ?
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in
<47732e30$0$84167$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>:

>DTC wrote:

>> BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
>> few years.
>
>The rural carriers appear to have installed all the towers that they're
>going to install. According to the statements from the rural carriers,
>AMPS is going to be around for a very long time. That's good news for
>people like me that often travel into those areas.

In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

DTC wrote:
> John Navas wrote:
>> There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
>> be shut down completely.
>
> Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
> in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
> to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
> will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.
>
> BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
> few years.

I added the facts about the end of the AMPS mandate to
"http://prepaiduswireless.com/". With a hyperlink near the top of the
page to that section.

In article <O3Fcj.32691$JD.2428@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net> ,
me@nothingtoseehere.zzx says...
> John Navas wrote:
> > There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
> > be shut down completely.
>
> Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
> in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
> to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
> will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.
>
> BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
> few years.
>
>
Static because Verizon doesn't own/operate many AMPS towers in rural
Texas--they're roaming on other carrier's systems MOST of which are
ALREADY digital--but GSM/TDMA not CDMA. AMPS (and TDMA) *can* be turned
off by those carriers on the shutdown date--no need to "turn up" digital
because it's already done. The rural carrier's MAY add a few more towers
to cover areas where high-power AMPS reached and digital doesn't but
they're under no obligation to ADD CDMA. Verizon has been taking
advantage of analog roaming to tout their "more coverage" than ATT--and
correctly for those with dual mode phones (although no larger than my
GAIT phone/plan)--but the advantage is about to end.
--
Jud
Dallas TX USA

Jud Hardcastle wrote:

> Static because Verizon doesn't own/operate many AMPS towers in rural
> Texas--they're roaming on other carrier's systems MOST of which are
> ALREADY digital--but GSM/TDMA not CDMA. AMPS (and TDMA) *can* be turned
> off by those carriers on the shutdown date--no need to "turn up" digital
> because it's already done.

As long as the GSM coverage is equal to the AMPS coverage that they are
turning off, then this is true. However in many areas of the country,
including the area I live in, there are large areas that presently have
AT&T AMPS coverage but that lack AT&T GSM coverage. Similarly, there are
areas that have Verizon AMPS coverage but that lack Verizon CDMA
coverage (I suspect that the same is true for Alltel, though I have no
personal experience with this). If the carriers are complying with the
FCC rules, then they'll have to leave some portions of their AMPS
network up and running until they can install a lot more digital towers.

Fortunately, many of the small carriers moved from TDMA/AMPS to
CDMA/AMPS, which helped coverage for both Verizon subscribers, and those
Cingular and AT&T subscribers with GAIT phones. They chose CDMA because
it has greater range per tower than GSM (yeah, I know about the one
person in the U.S. that insists that he has Extended GSM coverage!).

> The rural carrier's MAY add a few more towers
> to cover areas where high-power AMPS reached and digital doesn't but
> they're under no obligation to ADD CDMA.

This is true. Fortunately many of these rural carriers moved to CDMA
because they wanted to keep AMPS coverage. They chose CDMA because of
the lack of GSM/AMPS handsets. In my area, Golden State Cellular is a
prime example. Unfortunately, the rural carriers that were AT&T
affiliates mostly went the route of AT&T and went to GSM while keeping
TDMA/AMPS up for the time being.

> Verizon has been taking
> advantage of analog roaming to tout their "more coverage" than ATT--and
> correctly for those with dual mode phones (although no larger than my
> GAIT phone/plan)--but the advantage is about to end.

Unlikely to end any time soon. All the news reports about the AMPS
mandate ending always have statements by the rural carriers that they
will keep AMPS operating for the foreseeable future (they really have no
choice but to do so both for legal and practical reasons). Similarly, if
AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel intend to comply with the FCC rules, then they
will have to leave their fringe area AMPS network up, even if they don't
want to talk about doing so.

Will the FCC enforce their own rules is the real question. If they
don't, I'll lose coverage in the East Bay Hills, western Marin county,
much of the southern San Mateo coast and northern Santa Cruz coast, much
of the Santa Cruz mountains, much of the north coast area south of
Crescent City, much of San Benito County (down to the Pinnacles), much
of the Florida Everglades, the list goes on and on.

Is the FCC going to accept 100% overlay of existing AMPS towers with
digital, even though this means much less coverage?

In any case, the bottom line is that the original poster is incorrect.
Portions of the AMPS system will be shut down in February, but much of
it will remain operational if you believe what the rural carriers are
all saying.

SMS ???? ? wrote:
> In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
> is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
> down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
> mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
> being shut down.

Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut down
AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it disabled.

--
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

SMS ???. ? wrote:
> Jud Hardcastle wrote:
>> Verizon has been taking
>> advantage of analog roaming to tout their "more coverage" than
>> ATT--and correctly for those with dual mode phones (although no
>> larger than my GAIT phone/plan)--but the advantage is about to end.
>
> Unlikely to end any time soon. All the news reports about the AMPS
> mandate ending always have statements by the rural carriers that they
> will keep AMPS operating for the foreseeable future (they really have
> no choice but to do so both for legal and practical reasons).
> Similarly, if AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel intend to comply with the FCC
> rules, then they will have to leave their fringe area AMPS network
> up, even if they don't want to talk about doing so.
>

News flash: AT&T has already stated their intentions, and in fact began
shutting down AMPS/TDMA back in June.

"http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iiczkwxq1jK5IKXGCsNQkWgOHmQAD8TM1PKG0"

"Verizon Wireless, AT&T Inc. and Alltel Corp. are the largest carriers that
still have analog networks. Alltel will take more time than Verizon and AT&T
to close its network, shutting down in three stages ending in September.
Each carrier will keep its portion of the newly available spectrum, and will
use it to boost their digital services."

"The larger carriers say their digital buildout will cover any gaps left by
the demise of analog service."


According to the above the carrier that will take the longest to shut down
AMPS, Alltel, will be finished by September. The chicken little-like comment
about fringe areas is wishful thinking.

Heck, even Canadian carriers--who have not already done so--intend on
shutting down AMPS come February to be inline with the US. Rogers shut it
down back in May.

The world doesn't revolve around the less than 1% of users who still use
AMPS.


>
> In any case, the bottom line is that the original poster is incorrect.
> Portions of the AMPS system will be shut down in February, but much of
> it will remain operational if you believe what the rural carriers are
> all saying.

In fact it's just the opposite: most of AMPS will be shut down with only a
handful of rural operators--statistically insignificant--that cling to AMPS.
From the same link:
"A few rural cellular providers may keep their networks up. Plateau
Wireless, which provides service in eastern New Mexico and western Texas,
will maintain its analog network alongside a digital one "for the
foreseeable future," according to Chief Executive Tom Phelps."

Whether you choose to accept it or not AMPS is going away sooner rather than
later. That doesn't mean by February 19 it will be completely gone. But a
year from now it will be in its death throes. Before you go off on some
rural tangent, rural areas don't run the country. The Amish still ride in
buggies but that doesn't mean we build interstate highways for them.


--
Mike

John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> wrote in
news:nvi6n357epv05bij3qffbgargiuojj7vp2@4ax.com:

> In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.
>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
> John Navas
<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>
>
>

That's odd. There were ONLY 11 responses about AMPS sunset sent to the
FCC. The big guns Verizon, Alltel, ATT/Cingular, of course, want it off
to install more digital bandwidth in the cities. But, the comments from
the rural carriers that responded say differently from your conjecture.

Plateau Cellular, a rural carrier in Texas and New Mexico gives some
insight into the situation in the countryside:

"1. Current State of AMPS
Plateau currently provides AMPS service to approximately 58% of its
customer base.
Approximately 2.8% of such customers use Plateau’s analog service
utilizing bag phones and invehicle
installations of mobile radios. Specifically, rural farmers utilize AMPS
bag phones to
control and monitor center pivot agricultural irrigation systems for
their farm operations.2 This
service provides farmers the ability to utilize cellular service at
greater distances with the higher
power bag phones compared to a digital handset. It is important for the
farmers and the farming
industry that valuable resources such as water, energy, money and time
are conserved. These
conservation efforts are promulgated through the use of AMPS controlled
irrigation systems. In
addition, Plateau provides roaming service to subscribers of its roaming
partners whose home
markets are CDMA. Since there are areas within Plateau’s market where no
CDMA coverage
exists, those subscribers who have dual mode phones will revert to analog
service. These
subscribers use approximately 3.7% of all analog roaming minutes. As 58%
of Plateau’s
customer base continues to use analog service, Plateau believes such
service is critical to its
customers in the rural areas in which it operates and therefore serves
the public interest.
While the percentage of bag phone and in-vehicle mobile radio users may
seem relatively
small, it represents several hundred customers. Similarly, though the
percentage of roaming
minutes used by Plateau’s CDMA roaming partners’ subscribers is small in
relation to the overall
magnitude of Plateau’s roaming service, Plateau provides several hundred
thousand minutes per
month on analog to the roaming public. This is significant for those
portions of this rural market
where there is no CDMA coverage or no alternative roaming partners
available, and it is an
important factor for nationwide ubiquitous coverage since, without
Plateau’s analog service,
there would be no roaming alternative."

With the farming community using AMPS to control irrigation and to have
RELIABLE AMPS comms across vast areas of the countryside, like in Plateau
country, I'll bet the old bagphone will still connect to a stable, long-
range little carrier way past 2010, when your digital only SELLphones are
all reading NO SERVICE 300 ft from the 500' AMPS towers in the boondocks.

This is all a scam about maximizing profits in LARGE CITIES with traffic
overload. Out in Farmtown, USA, traffic isn't a problem, RANGE is. AMPS
still provides range no 150mw digital toyphone can dream of on a Texas
ranch. You go try to pull that AMPS from under the dash in the truck on
that ranch.....you'll find out how much buckshot is in a 12 guage shell!

Larry
--
I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?

clifto <clifto@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ts2d45-hdu.ln1@remote.clifto.com:

> SMS ???? ? wrote:
>> In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where
>> there is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers
>> really do shut down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the
>> FCC rules that mandate that digital coverage be available in the
>> areas where AMPS is being shut down.
>
> Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut
> down AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it
> disabled.
>

Nope, that's just not true, either. There's an FCC form they must
complete telling the FCC cutting off AMPS won't effect their customers,
which would be a lie in rural America, of course. Only 11 responses, so
far. Only the city big guns are cutting off AMPS. The rural carriers
are telling FCC a different line than you're getting from the big gun
fanboys here.

Read what they say....well, only the part the big boys want you to see,
anyways.....on:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?
job=cellular_reports&id=cellular

Notice how blacked out Verizon's responses are. What are they hiding,
the truth again??

Rural carriers wanted nothing to do with digital and its short range in
the first place. What the hell good is a cellphone that only goes 2
miles on the open range in Texas? How stupid....


Larry
--
I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?

"Tinman" <ask@for.it> wrote in news:5ti65tF1dme12U1@mid.individual.net:

> Whether you choose to accept it or not AMPS is going away sooner
> rather than later. That doesn't mean by February 19 it will be
> completely gone. But a year from now it will be in its death throes.
> Before you go off on some rural tangent, rural areas don't run the
> country. The Amish still ride in buggies but that doesn't mean we
> build interstate highways for them.
>
>
> --
> Mike
>

Mike, I'm curious. What benefit do you think Mike, himself, is going to
realize by this AMPS shutdown, that makes you so happy? Do you think your
service is going to take some leap or be increased if AMPS is shutdown for
those who use it?

Why are you so hyped up about its demise?

Larry
--
I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?