Re: iPhones now get free AT&T WiFi

Scott in SoCal <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:cg9p145vsdr5u35ickkqtml4euqb525jpi@4ax.com:

> While that's very generous of you to provide this service for free to
> the public, how would you feel if someone used your Internet
> connection to, say, send a threatening email to the President?
>
>

Every time I mention this on Usenet, I get this same exact response.
However, there IS case law that I'm sorry I don't have under my thumb a
perfect reference for you of, that having an OPEN, UNMONITORED node is,
in fact, a GREAT defence in front of the jurors. NOONE, not even the
Illuminati's judge, can hold you accountable for the actions of someone
who "used your system without your express permission".....any more than
they can hold Comcast responsible for his same actions on his Comcast
internet modem. If you let Y use your wifi, you are in EXACTLY the same
position as Comcast in your scenario.

I suppose it could get very expensive trying to defend yourself, but it
won't work as there are many who have gone before....way back in the BBS
days, even.

"They" know it won't work, having had their faces rubbed in the dirt in
court before....

DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in
news:1r2Tj.8318$iK6.5880@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:

> Larry wrote:
>> (A green tree frog has just stuck himself to the side of my WinXP box
>> and is making a curious croaking noise that sounds like a caster
>> wheel that needs some WD-40. I think he's looking for lunch....or
>> his mate.)
>
> Most likely he hears WinXP about to croak.
>

Ha! That's it!

He's taken up guarding my desk light, now that the sun's going down,
hoping some bugs will be attracted. They wedge themselves up under my
porch light, which runs continuously. Sometimes they get so fat eating
the attracted bugs, they get stuck between the globe and the wall!...(c;

Ron <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote:

> Those of us that travel and try to use WiFi are really impressed that
> WiFi is MORE than widely available. McDonalds, Burger King, all manner
> of restaurants have free and open WiFi, many Coffee shops. Hotels
> that may not have open WiFi, do have open WiFi in their
> Lobby/restaurants downstairs. Librarys, Hospitals, Govt Buildings,
> Universities, Shopping Malls.

I've found another great WiFi location that is often
overlooked.....Churches!

Larry wrote:
> hoping some bugs will be attracted.

Frog will be well satisfied. Windows is full of bugs.

Matt K. wrote:
> I've found another great WiFi location that is often
> overlooked.....Churches!

I guess draft 802.11god has finally been ratified.

"Matt K." <mattie@nospam.net> wrote in news:mattie-82392F.19172503052008
@news.giganews.com:

> Ron <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>> Those of us that travel and try to use WiFi are really impressed that
>> WiFi is MORE than widely available. McDonalds, Burger King, all manner
>> of restaurants have free and open WiFi, many Coffee shops. Hotels
>> that may not have open WiFi, do have open WiFi in their
>> Lobby/restaurants downstairs. Librarys, Hospitals, Govt Buildings,
>> Universities, Shopping Malls.
>
> I've found another great WiFi location that is often
> overlooked.....Churches!
>

I fix church organs for a living and have since 1985. Churches are
pretty paranoid about wifi security around here. My Linux tablet is
loaded with passwords to get on them. I only know of a couple that are
open due mostly to ignorance.

Great if you can get it. Most of them have professionally-installed
servers to aid in the money collections.

DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in news:NW6Tj.2028$3O7.163
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:

> Matt K. wrote:
>> I've found another great WiFi location that is often
>> overlooked.....Churches!
>
> I guess draft 802.11god has finally been ratified.
>

http://www.god.org/

DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in news:NW6Tj.2028$3O7.163
@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net:

> Matt K. wrote:
>> I've found another great WiFi location that is often
>> overlooked.....Churches!
>
> I guess draft 802.11god has finally been ratified.
>

Of course, the money grubber Evangelicals have:
http://www.god.com/
being a business and all.....(c;

On Sat, 03 May 2008 14:19:35 -0600, Todd Allcock
<elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:

>At 03 May 2008 07:51:58 -0500 Ron wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 May 2008 16:19:37 -0600, "Todd Allcock"
>
>> >Widely available?
>> >
>>
>> Absolutely, unless you're using 5 year old information.
>>
>> Those of us that travel and try to use WiFi are really impressed that
>> WiFi is MORE than widely available. McDonalds, Burger King, all manner
>> of restaurants have free and open WiFi, many Coffee shops. Hotels
>> that may not have open WiFi, do have open WiFi in their
>> Lobby/restaurants downstairs. Librarys, Hospitals, Govt Buildings,
>> Universities, Shopping Malls. You literally are never more than a few
>> blocks away from WiFi anywhere in any top 50 Metroplitan area, not
>> just "downtown". Just pull into the parking lot of a McDonalds, and
>> you're good to go. Even in airports, just sit down outside the
>> Continental Air Lounge for free open WiFi.
>>
>> And its so widely available now that even if you thought it
>> wasn't available, go search for SSIDs and Bingo, you may find it is
>> from some establishment, business or residence a block away.
>
>
>Sure, there are plenty of places I can GO to find free WiFi, but places I
>can GO doesn't necessarily equal places that I AM.
>
>Cellular data is ubiquitous , WiFi isn't.
>

Thats what the maps and the marketers say, but dead zones exist, even
in big cities (or maybe especially in big cities), and all too often
3G coverage is like Swiss cheese in some areas, so your 3G is working,
and then it isn't. I took and dumped on eBay an 8525 Phone after 1
week as 3G
WAS NOT UBIQUITOUS.

Ron wrote:

> On Sat, 03 May 2008 14:19:35 -0600, Todd Allcock
> <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
>
>
>>At 03 May 2008 07:51:58 -0500 Ron wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 2 May 2008 16:19:37 -0600, "Todd Allcock"
>>
>>>>Widely available?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Absolutely, unless you're using 5 year old information.
>>>
>>>Those of us that travel and try to use WiFi are really impressed that
>>>WiFi is MORE than widely available. McDonalds, Burger King, all manner
>>>of restaurants have free and open WiFi, many Coffee shops. Hotels
>>>that may not have open WiFi, do have open WiFi in their
>>>Lobby/restaurants downstairs. Librarys, Hospitals, Govt Buildings,
>>>Universities, Shopping Malls. You literally are never more than a few
>>>blocks away from WiFi anywhere in any top 50 Metroplitan area, not
>>>just "downtown". Just pull into the parking lot of a McDonalds, and
>>>you're good to go. Even in airports, just sit down outside the
>>>Continental Air Lounge for free open WiFi.
>>>
>>>And its so widely available now that even if you thought it
>>>wasn't available, go search for SSIDs and Bingo, you may find it is
>>>from some establishment, business or residence a block away.
>>
>>
>>Sure, there are plenty of places I can GO to find free WiFi, but places I
>>can GO doesn't necessarily equal places that I AM.
>>
>>Cellular data is ubiquitous , WiFi isn't.
>>
>
>
> Thats what the maps and the marketers say, but dead zones exist, even
> in big cities (or maybe especially in big cities), and all too often
> 3G coverage is like Swiss cheese in some areas, so your 3G is working,
> and then it isn't. I took and dumped on eBay an 8525 Phone after 1
> week as 3G
> WAS NOT UBIQUITOUS.


Which is more ubiquitous? Which facilitates mobile handoffs?

Not Wifi.

"Ron" <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:mv8q14l5o0s8da5hmt4089abogv19u64hh@4ax.com...
>>Cellular data is ubiquitous , WiFi isn't.
>>
>
> Thats what the maps and the marketers say, but dead zones exist, even
> in big cities (or maybe especially in big cities), and all too often
> 3G coverage is like Swiss cheese in some areas, so your 3G is working,
> and then it isn't. I took and dumped on eBay an 8525 Phone after 1
> week as 3G
> WAS NOT UBIQUITOUS.

Perhaps 3G wasn't, but CELLULAR DATA is. 3G falls back on EDGE/GPRS, so the
"3G" customer still has a connection, albeit a slower one. What does WiFi
fall back on? "Borrowing" a neighbor's or hotel's phone jack?

(I realize the iPhone has EDGE to fall back on as well, IF you're buying a
data plan. I'm really addressing the "WiFi is so readily available, I don't
need a cellular data plan" mindset.)

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-8690D9.19455303052008@nntp3.usenetserver.com...
> In article <Xns9A93C45FAFCD2noonehomecom@208.49.80.253>,
> Larry <noone@home.com> wrote:
>
> It's just like your leaving a gun in the open, such that it's easily
> taken by anyone. You are liable for leaving the gun in the open. If
> someone takes your gun that you simply left hanging on a hook on your
> front porch, and then uses that to kill the president, guess what?
> You're liable.

I've authored a bunch of stupid Usenet analogies in my life, sir, but I bow
to the master! ;-)

You're really equating an open internet access point to leaving a loaded gun
in the open? Sure, you'd be liable for the gun, because a reasonable person
could foresee the potential danger. What "danger" is the wireless AP owner
supposed to foresee? My outdoor garden hose and spigot left out in the open
is a greater potential threat to the public than a wireless AP- someone
REALLY intent on it could probably manage to drown himself.


What is Larry doing that thousands of independent coffee shops across the
country aren't? (Like Larry, many of the smaller ones don't require logins
or ToS acceptance pages to connect- they're simply "open.")

On Sat, 3 May 2008 21:14:16 -0600, "Todd Allcock"
<elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:

>
>"Ron" <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>news:mv8q14l5o0s8da5hmt4089abogv19u64hh@4ax.com.. .
>>>Cellular data is ubiquitous , WiFi isn't.
>>>
>>
>> Thats what the maps and the marketers say, but dead zones exist, even
>> in big cities (or maybe especially in big cities), and all too often
>> 3G coverage is like Swiss cheese in some areas, so your 3G is working,
>> and then it isn't. I took and dumped on eBay an 8525 Phone after 1
>> week as 3G
>> WAS NOT UBIQUITOUS.
>
>Perhaps 3G wasn't, but CELLULAR DATA is. 3G falls back on EDGE/GPRS, so the
>"3G" customer still has a connection, albeit a slower one. What does WiFi
>fall back on? "Borrowing" a neighbor's or hotel's phone jack?
>
>(I realize the iPhone has EDGE to fall back on as well, IF you're buying a
>data plan. I'm really addressing the "WiFi is so readily available, I don't
>need a cellular data plan" mindset.)
>


WiFi is usually free, and is widely available, as those of us who use
it know.

EDGE/GPRS is not free, and it remains to be seen what AT&T will
charge for data plans for 3G iPhones, it typically charges $40/month
for 3G Smart Phone data planes, and the Edge iPhone has already
demonstrated the burden it puts on data infrastructure.

You can't have it both ways. ***** about iPhone having to use Edge,
and then brag how Edge is UBIQUITUOUS. And even Edge, like
other cellular services will have dead zones, or times and places
where it wont work from over use. Try it 5 PM on a rainy night for
instance. Or anyplace more than 1/2 mile from the nearest Cell tower.
The "ubiquitous" cell service or data of 1900 MHz providers is even
more less so, with myriad complaints about indoor penetration.

On May 4, 8:49 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> In article <fvja9v$93...@aioe.org>,
> "Todd Allcock" <eleccon...@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's just like your leaving a gun in the open, such that it's easily
> > > taken by anyone. You are liable for leaving the gun in the open. If
> > > someone takes your gun that you simply left hanging on a hook on your
> > > front porch, and then uses that to kill the president, guess what?
> > > You're liable.
>
> > I've authored a bunch of stupid Usenet analogies in my life, sir, but I bow
> > to the master! ;-)
>
> > You're really equating an open internet access point to leaving a loaded gun
> > in the open?
>
> If it came down to someone making threats to the president, do you want
> to guess what would happen?

Which President. Obama or Hillary?

At 04 May 2008 10:29:57 +0000 Ron wrote:

> WiFi is usually free, and is widely available, as those of us who use
> it know.


Um, WiFi users are hardly a secret club. I, too, use WiFi, on my laptops,
my WinMo phone, and various PDAs. If it was as ubiquitous as you seem to
believe, I wouldn't need a data plan, but I do. Yes, WiFi is available in
many places, but not enought to be relied upon for use on demand, unless I
pre-select my itinerary to favor hotspots (i.e. Starbucks for coffee,
followed by a trip to the library, then Panera Bread for lunch, etc.) As a
T-Mo cusomer, I'm stuck with EDGE wireless data, just like an iPhone
customer is, so I too will happily take advantage of WiFi when/where
available.

> EDGE/GPRS is not free, and it remains to be seen what AT&T will
> charge for data plans for 3G iPhones, it typically charges $40/month
> for 3G Smart Phone data planes, and the Edge iPhone has already
> demonstrated the burden it puts on data infrastructure.

Historically AT&T doesn't price plans based on speed. Data for PDAs and
smartphones is what it is regardless of whether the phone is 2G or 3G.
Whether that will hold true for the iPhone remains to be seen, But someone
pointed out (Dennis Ferguson, IIRC) one advantage of 3G speed is it uses
less "time" on the network for the same amount of data- i.e. assuming you
follow the same usage pattern on 3G- unattended e-mail retrieval and the
same web lookups (weather, movies, the news, Google Maps directions, etc.)
you still transfer the same amount of data, but in a quarter of the time,
leaving the network idle for more users. Other than infrastructure build-
out costs, higher speed data is usually cheaper for the carrier- as the
switch from 1G (which used a full voice channel during the connection
whether data was being actively transferred or not!) to 2G (that sent data
packets "around" voice calls during active transfers) demonstrated. (I
always appreciated the irony that my 1G data on T-Mo was "free"- using my
plan minutes, while they charged me monthly for the 2G data which saved
them network usage! Obviously, though the same could said of texting,
which consumes less sytem resources than a voice call, but is sold as a
premium service.)


> You can't have it both ways. ***** about iPhone having to use Edge,
> and then brag how Edge is UBIQUITUOUS.

This is a long thread with twists and turns- I wasn't "*****ing" about the
iPhone using EDGE. I was (at first) suggesting that the free AT&T Wireless
access for iPhones was a sort of "apology" for EDGE (perhaps "compensation"
is a better word,) the same way T-Mo includes WiFi hotspot for their their
EDGE customers, (since they're the only national carrier with NO 3G yet),
and then the discussion morphed to whether AT&T DSL customers' free hotspot
access would prevent AT&T wireless customers from buying wireless data. I
don't believe hotspots are any substitute for cellular data, so I don't
think AT&T's generous offer will impact their wireless data sales. WiFi is
certainly a nice augmentation or cell data, but it's no replacement!

> And even Edge, like
> other cellular services will have dead zones, or times and places
> where it wont work from over use. Try it 5 PM on a rainy night for
> instance. Or anyplace more than 1/2 mile from the nearest Cell tower.
> The "ubiquitous" cell service or data of 1900 MHz providers is even
> more less so, with myriad complaints about indoor penetration.


Perhaps, but what percentage of "downtime" in a typical day would you have
with cellular data vs. WiFi? I'm a happy T-Mo EDGE user. My web and e-
mail work fine on rainy days, in weak signal areas, etc. If I'm able to
make a voice call, I'm able to use EDGE or GPRS. Perhaps T-Mo's typical
demographic (low-end, teeny-bopping text generation) doesn't lend itself to
data congestion or perhaps I've just been lucky...