Re: iPhones now get free AT&T WiFi

On Sat, 3 May 2008 21:14:16 -0600, "Todd Allcock"
<elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:

>
>"Ron" <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>news:mv8q14l5o0s8da5hmt4089abogv19u64hh@4ax.com.. .
>>>Cellular data is ubiquitous , WiFi isn't.
>>>
>>
>> Thats what the maps and the marketers say, but dead zones exist, even
>> in big cities (or maybe especially in big cities), and all too often
>> 3G coverage is like Swiss cheese in some areas, so your 3G is working,
>> and then it isn't. I took and dumped on eBay an 8525 Phone after 1
>> week as 3G
>> WAS NOT UBIQUITOUS.
>
>Perhaps 3G wasn't, but CELLULAR DATA is. 3G falls back on EDGE/GPRS, so the
>"3G" customer still has a connection, albeit a slower one. What does WiFi
>fall back on? "Borrowing" a neighbor's or hotel's phone jack?
>
>(I realize the iPhone has EDGE to fall back on as well, IF you're buying a
>data plan. I'm really addressing the "WiFi is so readily available, I don't
>need a cellular data plan" mindset.)
>


WiFi is usually free, and is widely available, as those of us who use
it know.

EDGE/GPRS is not free, and it remains to be seen what AT&T will
charge for data plans for 3G iPhones, it typically charges $40/month
for 3G Smart Phone data planes, and the Edge iPhone has already
demonstrated the burden it puts on data infrastructure.

You can't have it both ways. ***** about iPhone having to use Edge,
and then brag how Edge is UBIQUITUOUS. And even Edge, like
other cellular services will have dead zones, or times and places
where it wont work from over use. Try it 5 PM on a rainy night for
instance. Or anyplace more than 1/2 mile from the nearest Cell tower.
The "ubiquitous" cell service or data of 1900 MHz providers is even
more less so, with myriad complaints about indoor penetration.

On May 4, 8:49 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> In article <fvja9v$93...@aioe.org>,
> "Todd Allcock" <eleccon...@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's just like your leaving a gun in the open, such that it's easily
> > > taken by anyone. You are liable for leaving the gun in the open. If
> > > someone takes your gun that you simply left hanging on a hook on your
> > > front porch, and then uses that to kill the president, guess what?
> > > You're liable.
>
> > I've authored a bunch of stupid Usenet analogies in my life, sir, but I bow
> > to the master! ;-)
>
> > You're really equating an open internet access point to leaving a loaded gun
> > in the open?
>
> If it came down to someone making threats to the president, do you want
> to guess what would happen?

Which President. Obama or Hillary?

At 04 May 2008 10:29:57 +0000 Ron wrote:

> WiFi is usually free, and is widely available, as those of us who use
> it know.


Um, WiFi users are hardly a secret club. I, too, use WiFi, on my laptops,
my WinMo phone, and various PDAs. If it was as ubiquitous as you seem to
believe, I wouldn't need a data plan, but I do. Yes, WiFi is available in
many places, but not enought to be relied upon for use on demand, unless I
pre-select my itinerary to favor hotspots (i.e. Starbucks for coffee,
followed by a trip to the library, then Panera Bread for lunch, etc.) As a
T-Mo cusomer, I'm stuck with EDGE wireless data, just like an iPhone
customer is, so I too will happily take advantage of WiFi when/where
available.

> EDGE/GPRS is not free, and it remains to be seen what AT&T will
> charge for data plans for 3G iPhones, it typically charges $40/month
> for 3G Smart Phone data planes, and the Edge iPhone has already
> demonstrated the burden it puts on data infrastructure.

Historically AT&T doesn't price plans based on speed. Data for PDAs and
smartphones is what it is regardless of whether the phone is 2G or 3G.
Whether that will hold true for the iPhone remains to be seen, But someone
pointed out (Dennis Ferguson, IIRC) one advantage of 3G speed is it uses
less "time" on the network for the same amount of data- i.e. assuming you
follow the same usage pattern on 3G- unattended e-mail retrieval and the
same web lookups (weather, movies, the news, Google Maps directions, etc.)
you still transfer the same amount of data, but in a quarter of the time,
leaving the network idle for more users. Other than infrastructure build-
out costs, higher speed data is usually cheaper for the carrier- as the
switch from 1G (which used a full voice channel during the connection
whether data was being actively transferred or not!) to 2G (that sent data
packets "around" voice calls during active transfers) demonstrated. (I
always appreciated the irony that my 1G data on T-Mo was "free"- using my
plan minutes, while they charged me monthly for the 2G data which saved
them network usage! Obviously, though the same could said of texting,
which consumes less sytem resources than a voice call, but is sold as a
premium service.)


> You can't have it both ways. ***** about iPhone having to use Edge,
> and then brag how Edge is UBIQUITUOUS.

This is a long thread with twists and turns- I wasn't "*****ing" about the
iPhone using EDGE. I was (at first) suggesting that the free AT&T Wireless
access for iPhones was a sort of "apology" for EDGE (perhaps "compensation"
is a better word,) the same way T-Mo includes WiFi hotspot for their their
EDGE customers, (since they're the only national carrier with NO 3G yet),
and then the discussion morphed to whether AT&T DSL customers' free hotspot
access would prevent AT&T wireless customers from buying wireless data. I
don't believe hotspots are any substitute for cellular data, so I don't
think AT&T's generous offer will impact their wireless data sales. WiFi is
certainly a nice augmentation or cell data, but it's no replacement!

> And even Edge, like
> other cellular services will have dead zones, or times and places
> where it wont work from over use. Try it 5 PM on a rainy night for
> instance. Or anyplace more than 1/2 mile from the nearest Cell tower.
> The "ubiquitous" cell service or data of 1900 MHz providers is even
> more less so, with myriad complaints about indoor penetration.


Perhaps, but what percentage of "downtime" in a typical day would you have
with cellular data vs. WiFi? I'm a happy T-Mo EDGE user. My web and e-
mail work fine on rainy days, in weak signal areas, etc. If I'm able to
make a voice call, I'm able to use EDGE or GPRS. Perhaps T-Mo's typical
demographic (low-end, teeny-bopping text generation) doesn't lend itself to
data congestion or perhaps I've just been lucky...

At 04 May 2008 08:49:38 -0400 Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> If it came down to someone making threats to the president, do you want
> to guess what would happen?
>

Sure- the feds would investigate, see Larry was blameless, and go on their
way...

On 5/4/08 6:28 PM, in article o4hs14tb8qtgc4knvd84b01bqr8hlp0qdm@4ax.com,
"Scott in SoCal" <scottenaztlan@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 04 May 2008 15:07:45 -0600, Todd Allcock
> <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:
>
>> At 04 May 2008 08:49:38 -0400 Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>
>>> If it came down to someone making threats to the president, do you want
>>> to guess what would happen?
>>
>> Sure- the feds would investigate, see Larry was blameless, and go on their
>> way...
>
> You mean like the Secret Service did to Steve Jackson Games?
>
> As I recall, the SS took a bunch of their computers, hard drives,
> business records, and the work-in-progress GURPS Cyberpunk game,
> causing a catastrophic disruption to the company's business. The SS
> took its own sweet time about giving the stuff back, too - it took
> months of effort and involved over $250,000 in legal fees, but the SS
> eventually did let SJG go on their merry way.
>
> So clearly Larry has nothing whatsoever to worry about.

I get the impression from his posts that "Larry" is really Alfred E. Newman.

On Sun, 04 May 2008 13:20:09 -0600, Todd Allcock
<elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:

>At 04 May 2008 10:29:57 +0000 Ron wrote:
>
>> WiFi is usually free, and is widely available, as those of us who use
>> it know.
>

>available.
>
>> EDGE/GPRS is not free, and it remains to be seen what AT&T will
>> charge for data plans for 3G iPhones, it typically charges $40/month
>> for 3G Smart Phone data planes, and the Edge iPhone has already
>> demonstrated the burden it puts on data infrastructure.
>
>Historically AT&T doesn't price plans based on speed. Data for PDAs and
>smartphones is what it is regardless of whether the phone is 2G or 3G.


Don't know where you make that up from.

3G PDAs are required to get the $40 plan, EDGE ones not.

"Ron" <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:u19u14h4hrghu2c58qb4iainhjv6h90vgr@4ax.com...
>>Historically AT&T doesn't price plans based on speed. Data for PDAs and
>>smartphones is what it is regardless of whether the phone is 2G or 3G.
>
>
> Don't know where you make that up from.

Where I get all of my "made-up" AT&T info- from AT&T...

> 3G PDAs are required to get the $40 plan, EDGE ones not.

The list of "compatible phones" for the $30 PDA plan, (they dropped it to
$30 from $40 a while ago, now...) directly from AT&T's website, is:

"AT&T: Tilt
Cingular: 8125 , 8525
HP:hw6515
Motorola: Moto Q Global
Nokia: E62
Palm: Centro, Treo 650, Treo 680, Treo 750
Pantech: Duo
Samsung: Blackjack, Blackjack II"

Off the top of my head, I know the Cingular 8125, HP 6515, Treos 650 and
680, and Palm Centro are not 3G phones, although AFAIK, the Centro is the
only currently-sold non-3G PDA- the others are long discontinued.

The only "PDA" (AT&T's website definition, certainly not mine!) with a
sub-$30 data plan is the iPhone, which has it's own "iPhone" data plan. All
other PDAs, REGARDLESS OF DATA SPEED, are $30 for the data add-on, (or $60
if you want tethering included.)

But please- don't take my word for it- go to the AT&T wireless website,
stick a Centro in the shopping cart, go to "add services" and try to find us
a cheaper "2G PDA data plan," ok?

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-5035FF.05532105052008@nntp3.usenetserver.com...
>> >Sure- the feds would investigate, see Larry was blameless, and go on
>> >their
>> >way...
>>
>> You mean like the Secret Service did to Steve Jackson Games?
>>
>> As I recall, the SS took a bunch of their computers, hard drives,
>> business records, and the work-in-progress GURPS Cyberpunk game,
>> causing a catastrophic disruption to the company's business. The SS
>> took its own sweet time about giving the stuff back, too - it took
>> months of effort and involved over $250,000 in legal fees, but the SS
>> eventually did let SJG go on their merry way.
>
> Didn't the EFF have to get involved?

IIRC, yes, they were created in part due to this debacle.

>> So clearly Larry has nothing whatsoever to worry about.
>
> hehehehehehe Clearly.

To be fair, that was fifteen years ago, when the Feds were still trying to
figure out what "cybercrime" was all about, and were going after specific
"cyberpunk" targets, regardless of whether or not they actually had broken
any laws. I'll certainly agree that they make mistakes, and the SJG fiasco
might well be the "Ruby Ridge" of cybercrime "investigations," but early
blunders like that one are EXACTLY why Larry would really have nothing to
worry about today. The Feds know how "all the internets" work these days,
and would easily figure out that your hypothetical email threat didn't
originate from Larry. Would they confiscate his equipment for awhile and
inconvenience him? Probably, particularly if the "in person" Larry is as
stubborn and irascible as his Usenet persona is, they might just do it to
torque him off! Alternately, I suspect he could charm his way out of it
with his patriotic side, and I suspect he would probably feel compelled to
aid them in any way possible.

Now, having said that, they might have a few questions about the 500
terabytes of downloaded Usenet movies and music Larry has purported to have
"acquired"'over the last couple of years, but that's another matter... ;-)

Todd Allcock wrote:
>
> The only "PDA" (AT&T's website definition, certainly not mine!) with a
> sub-$30 data plan is the iPhone, which has it's own "iPhone" data plan.
> All other PDAs, REGARDLESS OF DATA SPEED, are $30 for the data add-on,
> (or $60 if you want tethering included.)
>
> But please- don't take my word for it- go to the AT&T wireless website,
> stick a Centro in the shopping cart, go to "add services" and try to
> find us a cheaper "2G PDA data plan," ok?
>

My hw6515 operates on a $19.99/month unlimited data plan.

"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
news:C-adnSWrFPTRo4LVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@speakeasy.net...

>>
>> The only "PDA" (AT&T's website definition, certainly not mine!) with a
>> sub-$30 data plan is the iPhone, which has it's own "iPhone" data plan.
>> All other PDAs, REGARDLESS OF DATA SPEED, are $30 for the data add-on,
>> (or $60 if you want tethering included.)
>>
>> But please- don't take my word for it- go to the AT&T wireless website,
>> stick a Centro in the shopping cart, go to "add services" and try to find
>> us a cheaper "2G PDA data plan," ok?
>>
>
> My hw6515 operates on a $19.99/month unlimited data plan.

I assume you are using MEdia Net rather than a PDA plan, though, correct?
That's a plan for "dumbphones" that isn't really hard to "trick" AT&T into
letting you have. I do the same on T-Mobile, with a $5.99 "WAP" plan
instead of their $20 PDA plan. Like AT&T, T-Mo seems ok with it as long as
you don't call attention to yourself by using "too much" of your unlimited
data.

Arguably, you could use that same $20 plan on a brand-new 3G PDA as well, as
long as you "stay under the radar." HowardForums are full of posters who've
done just that. Usually it involves sticking your SIM in a non-PDA phone,
and then signing up for the unlimited MEdia Net plan, then putting the SIM
in your PDA and conveniently forgetting to tell AT&T you've changed phones.
In your case, you'd probably get away with it even more easily since you
already have the data plan, and could simply buy a 3G model and slip your
SIM in. That's how I did it with T-Mo- I've had the same data plan add-on
for four or five years over three or four phones. When I switched from my
last "dumbphone" to my T-Mobile MDA, I simply moved the SIM to the MDA, and
never changed plans.

I was going to mention some of this in my reply to Ron, but I felt that
"tricking" AT&T into lower priced plans was beyond the scope of the
argument, because it isn't really 2G or 3G related- 3G PDA owners can play
the same tricks as 2G PDA owners do into gaming the system, so, IMO, it's a
moot point.

Todd Allcock wrote:
>
> "News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> news:C-adnSWrFPTRo4LVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>>
>>> The only "PDA" (AT&T's website definition, certainly not mine!) with
>>> a sub-$30 data plan is the iPhone, which has it's own "iPhone" data
>>> plan. All other PDAs, REGARDLESS OF DATA SPEED, are $30 for the data
>>> add-on, (or $60 if you want tethering included.)
>>>
>>> But please- don't take my word for it- go to the AT&T wireless
>>> website, stick a Centro in the shopping cart, go to "add services"
>>> and try to find us a cheaper "2G PDA data plan," ok?
>>>
>>
>> My hw6515 operates on a $19.99/month unlimited data plan.
>
>
> I assume you are using MEdia Net rather than a PDA plan, though,
> correct? That's a plan for "dumbphones" that isn't really hard to
> "trick" AT&T into letting you have. I do the same on T-Mobile, with a
> $5.99 "WAP" plan instead of their $20 PDA plan. Like AT&T, T-Mo seems
> ok with it as long as you don't call attention to yourself by using "too
> much" of your unlimited data.
>
> Arguably, you could use that same $20 plan on a brand-new 3G PDA as
> well, as long as you "stay under the radar." HowardForums are full of
> posters who've done just that. Usually it involves sticking your SIM in
> a non-PDA phone, and then signing up for the unlimited MEdia Net plan,
> then putting the SIM in your PDA and conveniently forgetting to tell
> AT&T you've changed phones. In your case, you'd probably get away with
> it even more easily since you already have the data plan, and could
> simply buy a 3G model and slip your SIM in. That's how I did it with
> T-Mo- I've had the same data plan add-on for four or five years over
> three or four phones. When I switched from my last "dumbphone" to my
> T-Mobile MDA, I simply moved the SIM to the MDA, and never changed plans.
>
> I was going to mention some of this in my reply to Ron, but I felt that
> "tricking" AT&T into lower priced plans was beyond the scope of the
> argument, because it isn't really 2G or 3G related- 3G PDA owners can
> play the same tricks as 2G PDA owners do into gaming the system, so,
> IMO, it's a moot point.
>


Absolutely no trickery or misrepresentation involved or required.

The $19.99/month "Smart Phone Connect" is an AT&T retail offered PDA
email/data/network access plan.

On Mon, 5 May 2008 10:51:09 -0600, "Todd Allcock"
<elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote:

>
>"Ron" <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>news:u19u14h4hrghu2c58qb4iainhjv6h90vgr@4ax.com.. .
>>>Historically AT&T doesn't price plans based on speed. Data for PDAs and
>>>smartphones is what it is regardless of whether the phone is 2G or 3G.
>>
>>
>> Don't know where you make that up from.
>
>Where I get all of my "made-up" AT&T info- from AT&T...
>
>> 3G PDAs are required to get the $40 plan, EDGE ones not.
>


I was wrong, the data plan is $45 for a Blackberry

"News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
news:bLednfs1YZjH0oLVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...

>> I was going to mention some of this in my reply to Ron, but I felt that
>> "tricking" AT&T into lower priced plans was beyond the scope of the
>> argument, because it isn't really 2G or 3G related- 3G PDA owners can
>> play the same tricks as 2G PDA owners do into gaming the system, so, IMO,
>> it's a moot point.
>>
>
>
> Absolutely no trickery or misrepresentation involved or required.
>
> The $19.99/month "Smart Phone Connect" is an AT&T retail offered PDA
> email/data/network access plan.

Actually it was an AT&T retail offered SMARTPHONE email/data plan. Back in
the day, Cingular made separate distinctions between "Smartphones" and
"PDAs." (Strangely enough, having a QWERTY keyboard was Cingular's
definition of a "PDA." A silly distinction, but that's what they used.)
Frankly I'm surprised they let you get it on the 6915- when I asked two
years ago if I could put an 8125 on Smartphone Connect and they told me I
couldn't. The Cingular forums are full of threads pointing out the even
Cingular didn't always get it right (Samsung Blackjack users in particular
seemed to be offered Smartphone Connect and PDA Connect randomly.)

I may be wrong, but I don't think they offer Smartphone connect any longer
(I think it was pulled when the old $40 PDA Connect became "PDA Personal"
for $30.)
I believe the current data plan lineup is here:
http://www.wireless.att.com/business...comp-table.jsp

So your Smartphone Connect plan is likely grandfathered, and would be
something I'd think twice about before ever cancelling, since it's
replacement seems to be $10/month more.

Todd Allcock wrote:
>
> "News" <News@Group.name> wrote in message
> news:bLednfs1YZjH0oLVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>> I was going to mention some of this in my reply to Ron, but I felt
>>> that "tricking" AT&T into lower priced plans was beyond the scope of
>>> the argument, because it isn't really 2G or 3G related- 3G PDA owners
>>> can play the same tricks as 2G PDA owners do into gaming the system,
>>> so, IMO, it's a moot point.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Absolutely no trickery or misrepresentation involved or required.
>>
>> The $19.99/month "Smart Phone Connect" is an AT&T retail offered PDA
>> email/data/network access plan.
>
>
> Actually it was an AT&T retail offered SMARTPHONE email/data plan. Back
> in the day, Cingular made separate distinctions between "Smartphones"
> and "PDAs." (Strangely enough, having a QWERTY keyboard was Cingular's
> definition of a "PDA." A silly distinction, but that's what they used.)
> Frankly I'm surprised they let you get it on the 6915- when I asked two
> years ago if I could put an 8125 on Smartphone Connect and they told me
> I couldn't. The Cingular forums are full of threads pointing out the
> even Cingular didn't always get it right (Samsung Blackjack users in
> particular seemed to be offered Smartphone Connect and PDA Connect
> randomly.)
>
> I may be wrong, but I don't think they offer Smartphone connect any
> longer (I think it was pulled when the old $40 PDA Connect became "PDA
> Personal" for $30.)
> I believe the current data plan lineup is here:
> http://www.wireless.att.com/business...comp-table.jsp
>
> So your Smartphone Connect plan is likely grandfathered, and would be
> something I'd think twice about before ever cancelling, since it's
> replacement seems to be $10/month more.
>


I'm not complaining.... ;-)

"Ron" <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:glpu14tm76j1n2adb0avlnufdu52oi8faj@4ax.com...


> I was wrong, the data plan is $45 for a Blackberry

Kinda sorta. $45 includes "corporate email" (Blackberry Enterprise Server,)
which business users would obviously have. "Personal" users who just want
their POP/IMAP email can opt for "Blackberry Personal" which is $30, same as
other PDA phones.

AT&T seems to have tried to greatly simplify their data plans- Today,
essentially, there are two tiers of unlimited "on-phone" data price points-
$30 for Smartphones/PDAs, and $20 for feature/multimedia phones (including
the iPhone.)

It'll be interesting to see how they position the 3G iPhone- keep iPhone
data plans consistent (i.e. $20/month) or redefine the 3G iPhone as a "PDA"
and charge $30. A two-tiered iPhone data pricing approach could certainly
help clear inventory of older EDGE iPhones without drastic price cuts- 2G
iPhones could be sold until stock is depleted alongside 3G models using the
$10/cheaper data rate as an advantage ("you'll save $240 over the two year
contract!"), particularly for users who intend to primarily use WiFi for
data, and only need the cellular data for email, casual browsing, and Visual
Voicemail.