DA4000 (CDMA Boost for 800MHz)

I've searched exhaustively and I can not find a definitive answer
regarding cellular signal boosting.

Will a booster like the DA4000 help my 1xrtt performance. I'm in a
rural area and get a very low signal from my LG4400 (2-3 bars I
believe that's around -65db). I can make voice calls (sometimes
switching to Analog) but I can't get data to work. Like many I am
searching for a solution like the one offered at
http://www.cellantenna.com

Can anyone verify if the DA4000 will work?
Thanks,
Chad

More power at a HIGHER altitude is always a way to increase range.
I'd buy one of cellantenna's beam antennas to go with it so you can
put it up on top of the house......and point it at ONE celltower on
ONE system.



On 22 Oct 2003 19:53:52 -0700, chadskinner@yahoo.com (Chad) wrote:

>I've searched exhaustively and I can not find a definitive answer
>regarding cellular signal boosting.
>
>Will a booster like the DA4000 help my 1xrtt performance. I'm in a
>rural area and get a very low signal from my LG4400 (2-3 bars I
>believe that's around -65db). I can make voice calls (sometimes
>switching to Analog) but I can't get data to work. Like many I am
>searching for a solution like the one offered at
>http://www.cellantenna.com
>
>Can anyone verify if the DA4000 will work?
>Thanks,
>Chad


Larry W4CSC

3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

I am not sure what signal level you are receiving at two bars with your
phone beecause every phone interpreted differently.
But I am pretty positive that is not -65dB (more acurately speaking -65dBm).
Data communications demands higher and purier signal to work. It's not
surprising that you can make voice calls better.

A signal boost "ampliies" everything including signal and noise at the same
time. If your reception is of bad signal/noise ratio, signal booster will
not help because it also boost noise at the sme time. Always try before
you really buy it!

"Chad" <chadskinner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b36911c9.0310221853.2dd0ae7c@posting.google.c om...
> I've searched exhaustively and I can not find a definitive answer
> regarding cellular signal boosting.
>
> Will a booster like the DA4000 help my 1xrtt performance. I'm in a
> rural area and get a very low signal from my LG4400 (2-3 bars I
> believe that's around -65db). I can make voice calls (sometimes
> switching to Analog) but I can't get data to work. Like many I am
> searching for a solution like the one offered at
> http://www.cellantenna.com
>
> Can anyone verify if the DA4000 will work?
> Thanks,
> Chad

So you are saying that given I can boost my signal accordingly using
the booster will not cause problems with Data usage? There is an
awful lot of FUD regarding CDMA and boosters posted in this group so
I'd like to be sure before I go out and spend $500.
Thanks,
Chad

"Chad" <chadskinner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b36911c9.0310230827.53cf45e2@posting.google.c om...
> So you are saying that given I can boost my signal accordingly using
> the booster will not cause problems with Data usage? There is an
> awful lot of FUD regarding CDMA and boosters posted in this group so
> I'd like to be sure before I go out and spend $500.
> Thanks,
> Chad


If you decide you want one, I have a few of DA4000's. Will sale you one for
less than what you see on their site.



KC

Chad wrote:
> So you are saying that given I can boost my signal accordingly using
> the booster will not cause problems with Data usage? There is an
> awful lot of FUD regarding CDMA and boosters posted in this group so
> I'd like to be sure before I go out and spend $500.
> Thanks,
> Chad

The DA4000 is just an RF amplifier (but dual-band and bidirectional).
The tower and phone don't know if you are just closer or the signal
amplified. BUT, any noise being received is also amplified. If you are
receiving a weak, noisy signal, what you'll end up with is a strong,
noisy signal! I do have a DA4000, and I've tried using it in marginal
areas. I've had very little luck with data, but have been able to use
it for analog voice. The voice calls tend to be very noisy.

I've also heard that if you are too far from the tower, the CDMA system
cannot deal with too long a propagation delay. Maybe someone more
technical with CDMA can comment.

Art

Larry knows antennas. I would suggest trying a directional antenna
solution first and then possibly the amp. I would think the directional
antenna would solve your problem.

[and now for some wild, baseless, CDMA speculation]

The tower tells your phone to raise and lower its transmit power to
sort of even out the incoming signal strength for everyone its talking
to. This prevents someone real close to the tower drowning out
everyone farther away. For some reason I have the idea that the
tower will simply quit talking to you if you don't play in certain
bounds -- maybe not. But this only gets your signal to the tower.
As people have already pointed out, if the problem is the signal/noise
ratio problem then an amp won't fix this.

Again, Larry can certainly tell you what you need (you may have to filter
out the parts about making your own from coffee cans).

-Quick

"Larry W4CSC" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
news:3f974aaf.854195@news.knology.net...
> More power at a HIGHER altitude is always a way to increase range.
> I'd buy one of cellantenna's beam antennas to go with it so you can
> put it up on top of the house......and point it at ONE celltower on
> ONE system.
>
>
>
> On 22 Oct 2003 19:53:52 -0700, chadskinner@yahoo.com (Chad) wrote:
>
> >I've searched exhaustively and I can not find a definitive answer
> >regarding cellular signal boosting.
> >
> >Will a booster like the DA4000 help my 1xrtt performance. I'm in a
> >rural area and get a very low signal from my LG4400 (2-3 bars I
> >believe that's around -65db). I can make voice calls (sometimes
> >switching to Analog) but I can't get data to work. Like many I am
> >searching for a solution like the one offered at
> >http://www.cellantenna.com
> >
> >Can anyone verify if the DA4000 will work?
> >Thanks,
> >Chad
>
>
> Larry W4CSC
>
> 3600 planes with transponders are burning 8-10 million
> gallons of kerosene per hour over the USA. R-12 car air
> conditioners are responsible for the ozone hole, right?

"Chad" <chadskinner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b36911c9.0310230827.53cf45e2@posting.google.c om...
> So you are saying that given I can boost my signal accordingly using
> the booster will not cause problems with Data usage? There is an
> awful lot of FUD regarding CDMA and boosters posted in this group so
> I'd like to be sure before I go out and spend $500.
> Thanks,
> Chad

I full time in my RV, and have a directional antenna on the roof (I point it
at the nearest tower), and an omnidirectional antenna inside. I have been
using it for both voice and data (voice 6 years, data 2 years). The only
time I had problems with noise and data was when a tree branch broke the
directional antenna cable connector when I was traveling (I replaced it and
everything worked fine). Have two friends that have the same setup (one in a
cement block building, and another in a steel building, both had bad signals
inside), put a directional antenna on the roof/repeater/omni inside, and
both data and voice work great inside.

Thanks for all your replies. I've been trying 1xRTT data connectivity
all around town (where I do get strong signals) and it is really
erratic. I get kicked off for know discernable reason a lot.
Sometimes just repositioning my phone makes a difference, other times
I have to move 15 or 20 feet. I can't imagine how bad this would be
with an amplifier and directional antenna.

Chad

It is to the company's benefit to keep your output power as low as
possible to boost the revenue caused by keeping you from showing up on
other receivers in area cells. Hence, the phones keep getting weaker
and weaker and shorter ranged and shorter ranged. Currently 150 to
200 milliwatts seems to be the standard. This is the MAXIMUM power
the phone will put out. One of CDMA's revenue enhancement schemes is
that your phone's output power is controlled by the cell, supposedly
turning it down to a minimal level.

Well, this all works great IF you are NEAR A CELL. As you head into
the DEAD ZONE, you bump into the max power limit imposed on the phone
by its design and Verizon's programming. Once this limit is bumped,
your little signal simply buries itself in the noise and reflections
the big antenna panels on the towers is inundated with.

It is at these fringes that the amplifier and a powerful antenna can
help you overcome the limitations imposed on the phone. It adds up to
another 20 dB of transmit power, up to the FCC-imposed 3 watt output
limit. Adding gain and height to the antenna makes you stand out in
the crowded band....sort of like if you had a carbon arc search light
in a sea of flashlights and candles. The cell notices you and
connects accordingly.

Inside the normal operating area, adding the power amp and high gain
antenna simply cause CDMA to turn the phones power down by that amount
to level your signal with the other poor bastards sharing the same
channel.

In a fixed location situation, using a DIRECTIONAL antenna like the
beams on:
http://www.cellantenna.com/Antennas/yagi.htm
has another beneficial effect. While greatly increasing your signal
at the cell site the antenna is pointed towards, it very nicely
DECREASES your signal taking longer paths that bounce off buildings,
airplanes, mountains, bridges. This is especially important in
digital modulation schemes (any of them) in that it reduces this
reflected signal at the cell that arrives many microseconds late,
screwing up the data with conflicting timing, always a problem in data
communications. If you take any TV running on a set top antenna and
tune it to the weakest UHF TV station at the highest channel number
you can see, you'll see intense "ghosts" always to the right of the
main picture....many of them. TV scans from left to right so any
signal arriving late creates this secondary image to the right (later)
than the main signal. The longer the path it took, the further to the
right of the main picture it will be. If you turn the little antenna
around, you can find spots where the ghosts are more powerful than the
main signal. This causes havoc in UHF communications systems, like
cellular phones. In the old AMPS analog phones like mine, you can
simply move the phone about 3" around to find a "hot spot" where the
reflected signals come in in-phase and stop cancelling out the
signal...minimum noise. Digital schemes don't have this luxury, as
you can see in the taxicab commercial Verizon loves to show. The taxi
customer can't find a hotspot because his digital calls simply drop if
it loses the signal for too long.

The beam will make your signal MUCH stronger, even without the
amplifier, simply because it points most all the power in one
direction, like cupping your hands around your mouth to increase
yelling range and also helps the receiver by pointing the EARS in that
direction, too, like cupping your hands over your ears to hear
better.....from a much higher location than that bent pin antenna
you've been depending on.



On 23 Oct 2003 09:27:42 -0700, chadskinner@yahoo.com (Chad) wrote:

>So you are saying that given I can boost my signal accordingly using
>the booster will not cause problems with Data usage? There is an
>awful lot of FUD regarding CDMA and boosters posted in this group so
>I'd like to be sure before I go out and spend $500.
>Thanks,
>Chad


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

chadskinner@yahoo.com (Chad) wrote in message news:<b36911c9.0310231448.17b31712@posting.google. com>...
> Thanks for all your replies. I've been trying 1xRTT data connectivity
> all around town (where I do get strong signals) and it is really
> erratic. I get kicked off for know discernable reason a lot.
> Sometimes just repositioning my phone makes a difference, other times
> I have to move 15 or 20 feet. I can't imagine how bad this would be
> with an amplifier and directional antenna.
>
> Chad


For specific product performance info, check out the Q&A forum. Be
sure to let us know how it turns out.

Cell Antenna Corporation Q&A Forum

http://www.cellantenna.com/.cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

-
David

Larry:
Perfectly correct on your power and noise remarks.
Off target for your reflection and multipath remarks.

CDMA uses RAKE receivers with correlators which adjust for the
time differences of the multipath signals, and they combine the decoded
signals in a diversity-reception manner to improve the net S/N ratio.

IOW, CDMA actually benefits from multipath situations.
It's quite different from the FM, TV, and TDMA worlds.
---JRC---

"Larry W4CSC" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message =
news:3f986a00.39767570@news.knology.net...
> It is to the company's benefit to keep your output power as low as
> possible to boost the revenue caused by keeping you from showing up on
> other receivers in area cells. Hence, the phones keep getting weaker
> and weaker and shorter ranged and shorter ranged. Currently 150 to
> 200 milliwatts seems to be the standard. This is the MAXIMUM power
> the phone will put out. One of CDMA's revenue enhancement schemes is
> that your phone's output power is controlled by the cell, supposedly
> turning it down to a minimal level.
>=20
> Well, this all works great IF you are NEAR A CELL. As you head into
> the DEAD ZONE, you bump into the max power limit imposed on the phone
> by its design and Verizon's programming. Once this limit is bumped,
> your little signal simply buries itself in the noise and reflections
> the big antenna panels on the towers is inundated with.
>=20
> It is at these fringes that the amplifier and a powerful antenna can
> help you overcome the limitations imposed on the phone. It adds up to
> another 20 dB of transmit power, up to the FCC-imposed 3 watt output
> limit. Adding gain and height to the antenna makes you stand out in
> the crowded band....sort of like if you had a carbon arc search light
> in a sea of flashlights and candles. The cell notices you and
> connects accordingly.
>=20
> Inside the normal operating area, adding the power amp and high gain
> antenna simply cause CDMA to turn the phones power down by that amount
> to level your signal with the other poor bastards sharing the same
> channel.
>=20
> In a fixed location situation, using a DIRECTIONAL antenna like the
> beams on:
> http://www.cellantenna.com/Antennas/yagi.htm
> has another beneficial effect. While greatly increasing your signal
> at the cell site the antenna is pointed towards, it very nicely
> DECREASES your signal taking longer paths that bounce off buildings,
> airplanes, mountains, bridges. This is especially important in
> digital modulation schemes (any of them) in that it reduces this
> reflected signal at the cell that arrives many microseconds late,
> screwing up the data with conflicting timing, always a problem in data
> communications. If you take any TV running on a set top antenna and
> tune it to the weakest UHF TV station at the highest channel number
> you can see, you'll see intense "ghosts" always to the right of the
> main picture....many of them. TV scans from left to right so any
> signal arriving late creates this secondary image to the right (later)
> than the main signal. The longer the path it took, the further to the
> right of the main picture it will be. If you turn the little antenna
> around, you can find spots where the ghosts are more powerful than the
> main signal. This causes havoc in UHF communications systems, like
> cellular phones. In the old AMPS analog phones like mine, you can
> simply move the phone about 3" around to find a "hot spot" where the
> reflected signals come in in-phase and stop cancelling out the
> signal...minimum noise. Digital schemes don't have this luxury, as
> you can see in the taxicab commercial Verizon loves to show. The taxi
> customer can't find a hotspot because his digital calls simply drop if
> it loses the signal for too long.
>=20
> The beam will make your signal MUCH stronger, even without the
> amplifier, simply because it points most all the power in one
> direction, like cupping your hands around your mouth to increase
> yelling range and also helps the receiver by pointing the EARS in that
> direction, too, like cupping your hands over your ears to hear
> better.....from a much higher location than that bent pin antenna
> you've been depending on.
>=20
> Larry W4CSC
>

The only problem is that is the BTS recieves more power than what it tells
the mobile to send, the BTS will brobably send a "service required" message
and the mobile will shutdown or reboot to avoid causing problems with other
subscribers. CDMA is definitly a different animal, noise can be 10-17dB
stronger than the signal. Almost exactly opposite of TDMA or AMPS.
"John R. Copeland" <jcopelan@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ns0mb.82441$uJ2.59873@fe3.columbus.rr.com...
Larry:
Perfectly correct on your power and noise remarks.
Off target for your reflection and multipath remarks.

CDMA uses RAKE receivers with correlators which adjust for the
time differences of the multipath signals, and they combine the decoded
signals in a diversity-reception manner to improve the net S/N ratio.

IOW, CDMA actually benefits from multipath situations.
It's quite different from the FM, TV, and TDMA worlds.
---JRC---

"Larry W4CSC" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
news:3f986a00.39767570@news.knology.net...
> It is to the company's benefit to keep your output power as low as
> possible to boost the revenue caused by keeping you from showing up on
> other receivers in area cells. Hence, the phones keep getting weaker
> and weaker and shorter ranged and shorter ranged. Currently 150 to
> 200 milliwatts seems to be the standard. This is the MAXIMUM power
> the phone will put out. One of CDMA's revenue enhancement schemes is
> that your phone's output power is controlled by the cell, supposedly
> turning it down to a minimal level.
>
> Well, this all works great IF you are NEAR A CELL. As you head into
> the DEAD ZONE, you bump into the max power limit imposed on the phone
> by its design and Verizon's programming. Once this limit is bumped,
> your little signal simply buries itself in the noise and reflections
> the big antenna panels on the towers is inundated with.
>
> It is at these fringes that the amplifier and a powerful antenna can
> help you overcome the limitations imposed on the phone. It adds up to
> another 20 dB of transmit power, up to the FCC-imposed 3 watt output
> limit. Adding gain and height to the antenna makes you stand out in
> the crowded band....sort of like if you had a carbon arc search light
> in a sea of flashlights and candles. The cell notices you and
> connects accordingly.
>
> Inside the normal operating area, adding the power amp and high gain
> antenna simply cause CDMA to turn the phones power down by that amount
> to level your signal with the other poor bastards sharing the same
> channel.
>
> In a fixed location situation, using a DIRECTIONAL antenna like the
> beams on:
> http://www.cellantenna.com/Antennas/yagi.htm
> has another beneficial effect. While greatly increasing your signal
> at the cell site the antenna is pointed towards, it very nicely
> DECREASES your signal taking longer paths that bounce off buildings,
> airplanes, mountains, bridges. This is especially important in
> digital modulation schemes (any of them) in that it reduces this
> reflected signal at the cell that arrives many microseconds late,
> screwing up the data with conflicting timing, always a problem in data
> communications. If you take any TV running on a set top antenna and
> tune it to the weakest UHF TV station at the highest channel number
> you can see, you'll see intense "ghosts" always to the right of the
> main picture....many of them. TV scans from left to right so any
> signal arriving late creates this secondary image to the right (later)
> than the main signal. The longer the path it took, the further to the
> right of the main picture it will be. If you turn the little antenna
> around, you can find spots where the ghosts are more powerful than the
> main signal. This causes havoc in UHF communications systems, like
> cellular phones. In the old AMPS analog phones like mine, you can
> simply move the phone about 3" around to find a "hot spot" where the
> reflected signals come in in-phase and stop cancelling out the
> signal...minimum noise. Digital schemes don't have this luxury, as
> you can see in the taxicab commercial Verizon loves to show. The taxi
> customer can't find a hotspot because his digital calls simply drop if
> it loses the signal for too long.
>
> The beam will make your signal MUCH stronger, even without the
> amplifier, simply because it points most all the power in one
> direction, like cupping your hands around your mouth to increase
> yelling range and also helps the receiver by pointing the EARS in that
> direction, too, like cupping your hands over your ears to hear
> better.....from a much higher location than that bent pin antenna
> you've been depending on.
>
> Larry W4CSC
>

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:50:59 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
<jcopelan@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

>Larry:
>Perfectly correct on your power and noise remarks.
>Off target for your reflection and multipath remarks.
>
>CDMA uses RAKE receivers with correlators which adjust for the
>time differences of the multipath signals, and they combine the decoded
>signals in a diversity-reception manner to improve the net S/N ratio.
>
Hmm...thanks for the info. How do they get that to work in
microseconds?



Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"

If CDMA is so much better than all the other schemes.....the question
arises as to WHY does the rest of the world use GSM??

Seems like everybody everywhere would want it.....instead of just
Alltel, Verizon and Sprint.....

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:44:05 -0500, "Bill" <andw1@direcway.nospam.com>
wrote:

>The only problem is that is the BTS recieves more power than what it tells
>the mobile to send, the BTS will brobably send a "service required" message
>and the mobile will shutdown or reboot to avoid causing problems with other
>subscribers. CDMA is definitly a different animal, noise can be 10-17dB
>stronger than the signal. Almost exactly opposite of TDMA or AMPS.
>"John R. Copeland" <jcopelan@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:ns0mb.82441$uJ2.59873@fe3.columbus.rr.com. ..
>Larry:
>Perfectly correct on your power and noise remarks.
>Off target for your reflection and multipath remarks.
>
>CDMA uses RAKE receivers with correlators which adjust for the
>time differences of the multipath signals, and they combine the decoded
>signals in a diversity-reception manner to improve the net S/N ratio.
>
>IOW, CDMA actually benefits from multipath situations.
>It's quite different from the FM, TV, and TDMA worlds.
>---JRC---
>
>"Larry W4CSC" <nospam@home.com> wrote in message
>news:3f986a00.39767570@news.knology.net...
>> It is to the company's benefit to keep your output power as low as
>> possible to boost the revenue caused by keeping you from showing up on
>> other receivers in area cells. Hence, the phones keep getting weaker
>> and weaker and shorter ranged and shorter ranged. Currently 150 to
>> 200 milliwatts seems to be the standard. This is the MAXIMUM power
>> the phone will put out. One of CDMA's revenue enhancement schemes is
>> that your phone's output power is controlled by the cell, supposedly
>> turning it down to a minimal level.
>>
>> Well, this all works great IF you are NEAR A CELL. As you head into
>> the DEAD ZONE, you bump into the max power limit imposed on the phone
>> by its design and Verizon's programming. Once this limit is bumped,
>> your little signal simply buries itself in the noise and reflections
>> the big antenna panels on the towers is inundated with.
>>
>> It is at these fringes that the amplifier and a powerful antenna can
>> help you overcome the limitations imposed on the phone. It adds up to
>> another 20 dB of transmit power, up to the FCC-imposed 3 watt output
>> limit. Adding gain and height to the antenna makes you stand out in
>> the crowded band....sort of like if you had a carbon arc search light
>> in a sea of flashlights and candles. The cell notices you and
>> connects accordingly.
>>
>> Inside the normal operating area, adding the power amp and high gain
>> antenna simply cause CDMA to turn the phones power down by that amount
>> to level your signal with the other poor bastards sharing the same
>> channel.
>>
>> In a fixed location situation, using a DIRECTIONAL antenna like the
>> beams on:
>> http://www.cellantenna.com/Antennas/yagi.htm
>> has another beneficial effect. While greatly increasing your signal
>> at the cell site the antenna is pointed towards, it very nicely
>> DECREASES your signal taking longer paths that bounce off buildings,
>> airplanes, mountains, bridges. This is especially important in
>> digital modulation schemes (any of them) in that it reduces this
>> reflected signal at the cell that arrives many microseconds late,
>> screwing up the data with conflicting timing, always a problem in data
>> communications. If you take any TV running on a set top antenna and
>> tune it to the weakest UHF TV station at the highest channel number
>> you can see, you'll see intense "ghosts" always to the right of the
>> main picture....many of them. TV scans from left to right so any
>> signal arriving late creates this secondary image to the right (later)
>> than the main signal. The longer the path it took, the further to the
>> right of the main picture it will be. If you turn the little antenna
>> around, you can find spots where the ghosts are more powerful than the
>> main signal. This causes havoc in UHF communications systems, like
>> cellular phones. In the old AMPS analog phones like mine, you can
>> simply move the phone about 3" around to find a "hot spot" where the
>> reflected signals come in in-phase and stop cancelling out the
>> signal...minimum noise. Digital schemes don't have this luxury, as
>> you can see in the taxicab commercial Verizon loves to show. The taxi
>> customer can't find a hotspot because his digital calls simply drop if
>> it loses the signal for too long.
>>
>> The beam will make your signal MUCH stronger, even without the
>> amplifier, simply because it points most all the power in one
>> direction, like cupping your hands around your mouth to increase
>> yelling range and also helps the receiver by pointing the EARS in that
>> direction, too, like cupping your hands over your ears to hear
>> better.....from a much higher location than that bent pin antenna
>> you've been depending on.
>>
>> Larry W4CSC
>>
>
>


Larry W4CSC

"Very funny, Scotty! Now, BEAM ME MY CLOTHES! KIRK OUT!"