Technical Specs of iPhone 3G posted

Larry wrote:
> The Bob <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Ron <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html
>> I see they won't be touting battery life as a big draw. They still
>> limit the phone in choice of audio and video formats. And it still
>> doen't have true GPS. Average camera at best with no video recording.
>> No card slot. And no western skiing for the iPhone user (maximum
>> operating altitude 10,000 ft.). Looks like a mediocre feature
>> offering at best.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, how can the phone operate in a range of 32 to 95 degrees but not
>> operate in a range of -4 to 113 degrees? Must be more of the Apple
>> Rocket Science.
>>
>> But I'll bet the "user-configurable maximum volume limit" will be a
>> big selling point. After all, who ever heard of a volume control on a
>> cell phone?
>>
>
> I was also quite curious as to what "assisted GPS" means on a page that
> is supposed to be the technical specifications of the device. Two words
> is kinda vague. Either it really does have GPS or it doesn't. I thought
> that is why the plastic case, because the GPS antenna MUST be somewhere
> it can see the sky. The satellites are around 16,000 miles away and line
> of sight. Any reflections, like operating a GPS receiver in a building
> so the signal must bounce off something to get through the windows makes
> the GPS fix very inaccurate because it's an analog system running on
> timing and phase relationships between multiple signals. In a car, you'd
> have to provide iPhone some kind of dash mounting bracket so it could see
> UP into the sky, not with the car roof blocking the RF raining down on
> it.
>
> The temperature range is probably dependent on the LCD's capabilities,
> not the phone. Too hot, the display turns black as the crystals melt.
> Too cold and the crystals are so sluggish the display looks like slow
> motion and will actually "freeze" at some low temperature. But, I
> thought we'd gotten over most of that issue, especially in the cold.
> Maybe they're afraid of the hot glue holding the cables on inside the
> case melting.
>
> Has anyone had iphone troubles because they forgot and left it in a car
> in the hot sun? What did the display look like before it cooled back
> off?

I've kept mine in the clear map display area of the tank bag on my
motorcycle. It got quite hot... The iphone shuts itself down after about
45 minutes under the map display(much like the heat from a car under there).

---

› See More: Technical Specs of iPhone 3G posted

In message <[email protected]> Larry
<[email protected]> wrote:

>David Moyer <[email protected]> wrote in news:meetme-C1C712.23394811062008
>@news.qwest.net:
>
>> and the 1.0 iPhone have the excellent WiFi positioning system via
>> Skyhook, and the 2.0 models have that and true GPS, so if you are
>> indoors or out, an iPhone will work... not so with most Cell Phone GPS
>> systems.
>>
>>
>
>Dream.........and the dream comes true..........
>Dream.........it's the thing to do..............
>(play the song while reading this)
>
>GPS DOESN'T WORK INDOORS!.....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE....

It can, depending on the signal strength you manage to receive, and your
receiver's sensitivity. The signal is obviously degraded, but if you're
near a window, it may be sufficient.

I have a QStar BT-Q1000 that gets a decent signal indoors and can manage
to pin-point my location when I arrive in a hotel a thousand miles from
where it was last turned on (so it's definitely not just caching a
previous location)

Several of the reviews mention this behaviour as well:
http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php?a...reviews&id=976 read
"In fact, I was able to receive a signal five feet from a window, inside
a brick building. The unit also logged while in a sealed backpack...
very convenient. "

When I use this GPS, I leave it in a compartment near the top of my
backpack.

>How can you triangulate from WiFi when you have NO IDEA WHERE THE WIFI
>BASE IS AND THE WIFI DOESN'T SUPPORT TRIANGULATION?.....Impossible.

My iPod Touch with Google Maps has this creepy habit of figuring out
where I am, it has nothing but wifi and IP address information to go on.

I've tested it on literally dozens of open wifi access points around
three different cities. The accuracy isn't comparable to turn by turn
GPS directions, but it's sufficient to find myself on a map.

>To triangulate the position of an RF transmitter, you need at LEAST TWO
>good LOPs (Lines of Position) from TWO separate, KNOWN locations with
>STEERABLE antennas Sellphone towers DON'T have.

They're actually called "cellphones".

As is shown by the iPod Touch (with no GPS and no cellphone support),
you actually don't need multiple points of reference to get a rough idea
of where you're located when relying on guessing your location based on
nearby wifi access points which have known locations. What surprises me
is the depth of information in the wifi location databases, but the
proof is in how well the service works.

For turn by turn directions, GPS is obviously better (I'd argue the only
option), but for finding my current location on a map close enough to
eyeball what is nearby or manually plan out a route, wifi-based location
is more then sufficient.

In message <[email protected]> Larry
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The Bob <[email protected]> wrote in news:Xns9ABAD2D32D646bob@
>216.196.97.136:
>
>> Modern cell phones have things like true GPS.
>>
>>
>
>I sorry, Bob, I disagree. Pick any GPS phone.

Okay, I pick the AT&T TILT.

>Click to Menu and bring
>up your GPS position.

I don't have anything called "menu", but I do have a couple GPS capable
applications.

>My ROKR Z6m is supposed to have GPS. There is a
>GPS position subroutine in the test section you can bring up with the
>secret code. It never shows anything. My V6 was the same way.

Perhaps you need to pick better phones. I not only get a lat/long, but
I can see the time, nearby satellites and their relative strengths.

Oh, and I can pull and log the NMEA data too, should I be sufficiently
bored.

>Notice that on ANY handheld GPS there is an RF transparent plastic panel
>about 2 X 3" above the display on the UPSIDE, when you're looking at it,
>of the unit.

Perhaps you can point it out for me as there physically isn't 2" above
the display on my device:
http://www.68phone.com/wp-content/up...c-att-tilt.jpg

>Nope...there's no antennas...so there can't be a GPS. I think it's a lie
>for the druggies and Feds. You CANNOT pinpoint the position of the phone
>as soon as you pass through the front door of the high rise building.
>That's just fantasy. The last good fix it got was just outside the door.
>That fix would be what the cops would see.

It might be fantasy, but my QStar manages to figure out where I am from
inside in a hotel, with the last fix being in another country.

I've also fired it up downtown inside an office building, ground level,
while killing time waiting to meet someone. Last known fix was across
town, and was initially returned, but after around two minutes it
managed to get close, although it had me across the street and down the
block slightly initially.

But like you say, fantasy, must have been the last known location.

David Moyer <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
news:[email protected]:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> The Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > haven't you even seen the Keynote? until you do, you won't understand
>> > much about modern cell phones.
>> >
>>
>> Modern cell phones have things like true GPS.
>
> and the 1.0 iPhone have the excellent WiFi positioning system via
> Skyhook,

And how does that work for you in rural highways and interstates?


and the 2.0 models have that and true GPS,

No it won't- it will be a combination of wifi and tower trinagulation, not
true GPS. Apple doesn't even state that it will be true GPS.

so if you are
> indoors or out, an iPhone will work

My Blackberry (with true GPS) works just fine indorrs.

.... not so with most Cell Phone GPS
> systems.


No- not so with most American GPS cell phones. Most CDMA phones have true
GPS.

>
> apple has the better system, that's for sure...

How do you figure?

it's just you are
> jealous, that's all.
>

Jealous of what? A fnaboi tinker toy?

Larry <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
news:[email protected]:

> The Bob <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Ron <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html
>>
>> I see they won't be touting battery life as a big draw. They still
>> limit the phone in choice of audio and video formats. And it still
>> doen't have true GPS. Average camera at best with no video
>> recording.
>> No card slot. And no western skiing for the iPhone user (maximum
>> operating altitude 10,000 ft.). Looks like a mediocre feature
>> offering at best.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, how can the phone operate in a range of 32 to 95 degrees but
>> not operate in a range of -4 to 113 degrees? Must be more of the
>> Apple Rocket Science.
>>
>> But I'll bet the "user-configurable maximum volume limit" will be a
>> big selling point. After all, who ever heard of a volume control on
>> a cell phone?
>>
>
> I was also quite curious as to what "assisted GPS" means on a page
> that is supposed to be the technical specifications of the device.
> Two words is kinda vague. Either it really does have GPS or it
> doesn't. I thought that is why the plastic case, because the GPS
> antenna MUST be somewhere it can see the sky. The satellites are
> around 16,000 miles away and line of sight. Any reflections, like
> operating a GPS receiver in a building so the signal must bounce off
> something to get through the windows makes the GPS fix very inaccurate
> because it's an analog system running on timing and phase
> relationships between multiple signals. In a car, you'd have to
> provide iPhone some kind of dash mounting bracket so it could see UP
> into the sky, not with the car roof blocking the RF raining down on
> it.
>
> The temperature range is probably dependent on the LCD's capabilities,
> not the phone. Too hot, the display turns black as the crystals melt.
> Too cold and the crystals are so sluggish the display looks like slow
> motion and will actually "freeze" at some low temperature. But, I
> thought we'd gotten over most of that issue, especially in the cold.
> Maybe they're afraid of the hot glue holding the cables on inside the
> case melting.
>
> Has anyone had iphone troubles because they forgot and left it in a
> car in the hot sun? What did the display look like before it cooled
> back off?
>
> I cannot imagine ANY portable device needing a volume limit. All the
> damned things, including my Nokia N800 Linux tablet, need MORE
> AMPLIFICATION so you can hear it in a noisy place. Every one of these
> devices needs a hardware-based audio compander (compressor-expander)
> to provide proper audio levels because the source material is either
> driven into distortion or is so low you NEVER have enough volume
> control range to bring it up so you can hear it. Even internet
> broadcasters do a HORRIBLE job of watching and adjusting their
> encoding levels to ensure peak audio output without overdriving their
> encoders. Very few use companders at the source, so the devices
> desparately need them at the end. One of the reasons I didn't upgrade
> N800 to N810 is N810 has LESS speakers, mounted on the sides, than
> N800's front mounted on either side of the display. Sitting close
> enough to watch it, there is noticeable stereo from the speakers. I
> don't sit on the side, where the N810 audio comes out. The other
> reason was the loss of big SDHC memory cards, going to a single
> microSD limited to 8GB. N800 has lots better storage.
>
>
>
>

Larry- I think you missed my point. For a "technical specification"
page from a major computing corporation, the page looks like it was
written by a five year old with all of the inaccuracies and vaguarities.

David Moyer <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
news:[email protected]:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> The Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior
>> to the real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is
>> network dependent on either GSM or wifi.
>
> assisted just means it also has WPS, first cell phone to have it.

Really? According to Apple:

"iPhone 3G finds your location via GPS or by triangulating your position
using Wi-Fi and cellular towers."



>
>> > apple has the better system, that's for sure... it's just you are
>> > jealous, that's all.
>>
>> Better than who, fanboi?
>
> Garmin, TomTom, etc... those companies are now toast... at least in
> the consumer space.
>

Apple is not better- it will only work when on network. Garmin works
everywhere.

The Bob <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
news:[email protected]:

> David Moyer <[email protected]> amazed us all with the following in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> The Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> No- they don't use true GPS. It is Assisted GPS, which is inferior
>>> to the real thing. Do your homework- the Apple Assisted GPS is
>>> network dependent on either GSM or wifi.
>>
>> assisted just means it also has WPS, first cell phone to have it.
>
> Really? According to Apple:
>
> "iPhone 3G finds your location via GPS or by triangulating your position
> using Wi-Fi and cellular towers."
>
>
>

I should clarify my point here- if the iPhone had true GPS, it would have
no need for triangulating using networks, which is far less accurate..

David Moyer <[email protected]> wrote in news:meetme-CF5CDC.08130512062008
@n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com:

> larry, please put yourself out of your own misery, WATCH the Keynote
> since it explains all of that... (to huge applause by the way) learn
> about skyhook and you'll understand why you can be indoors and still
> have it work.
>
> http://www.skyhookwireless.com/
>
> bottom line it has true WPS & GPS
>
> http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc08/
>

That goddamned sales meeting of fanbois didn't "explain" anything of the
sort. I'm still appalled he was giving 12-year-old kid explanations to a
room that was supposed to be full of developer professionals....and they
applauded the most stupid toys.

Show me where the GPS antenna is located on an Iphone and how that antenna
has a clear view of the sky in your 8th floor living room of the 24 story
building.

Bull****....pure bull****.

DevilsPGD <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> But like you say, fantasy, must have been the last known location.
>
>

Right, thanks. If GPS could do what Sellphone vendors want....GARMIN, not
them, would have already been doing it.....and they're not because it's
physically IMPOSSIBLE.

Now, I CAN see the sleazy sellphone bastards bull****ting the customers
with some GPS app that gives them the lat/long of the towers, which does
have a GPS receiver in them because it is where the TIME set on your
sellphone display comes from. Look at a cell near you closely and you'll
see a little white dome antenna down on the building or near the base of
the tower feeding a small coax into the building. That's a GPS antenna,
just like the ones on someone's yacht.

Steve Mackay <[email protected]> wrote in news:48513c57$0$31736
[email protected]:

> The iPhone will *NEVER* have the accuracy, and routing capabilites of a
> true GPS. There isn't enough romm in it for a properly accurate GPS
> antenna or GPS chipset. It wont hold a candle to the SIRF III based GPSs.
>
>

http://www.navigadget.com/index.php/...-now-official/

Here's the replacement for my LD-3W Nokia just came out with. Notice its
size in relation to the little suction cup it comes with....much thinner
than the LD-3w. There's not enough difference to warrant spending another
$100 for it, though. I've never seen a GPS receiver so sensitive and fast
as the LD-3w. It's a 12 channel, WAAS-satellite compensated, and the whole
front of it is an antenna array with a nice wide aperture. It'll put the
car in the exact parking space the blue dot location is in Maemo Mapper
with the Virtual Earth Satellite/mapping composite tiles. It's more
accurate than my Garmin $900 marine chartplotter!

Now it does aeronautical charts....(c;

nospam <[email protected]> wrote in news:120620081711330002%
[email protected]lid:

> it doesn't 'require' it, but if there's a cell signal available, some
> of the info that would normally be sent from the gps satellites can be
> more reliably obtained from the cell towers, thereby dramatically
> reducing the time to obtain a fix and/or maintaining a fix in weak
> signal conditions.
>
>

Totally false, a fantasy.

The GPS system is ANALOG, based on precise TIMING and the phase
relationship between the pulses generated by the birds and the physical
position of the receiver antenna.

GPS depends on having a DIRECT, unobstructed view from the receiver's
antenna to the maximum number of satellites over the horizon. Come see
the birds' positions:
http://science.nasa.gov/Realtime/jtr.../JTrack3D.html
Jtrack is a realtime Java app showing the exact location of every
satellite, dead or alive, orbiting the planet. Click and DRAG on it and
you'll move it in 3 dimensions. Click on one of the dots and Jtrack will
tell you what that bird's name and number is and draw you a 3D track of
its orbit.

Now, you'll notice very close to the earth, right on the edge of the
atmosphere, a cloud of LEO (low earth orbit) satellites like MIR and ISS
and the Shuttle if it's orbiting the earth and the Hubble Space Telescope
(close to the earth so it can be turned around to point at the planet for
fantastic optical spying they won't let you see.) Way out in a ring
directly over the plane of the equator are your geosynchronous satellites
for DTV, communications, DISH network and the tv systems across the
planet around 32,800 miles altitude...FAR FAR AWAY from anything Shuttle
is capable of visiting...the reason there's no repair missions.

Now, look at the cloud of birds about halfway in between these two orbit
clusters. I say cloud because they are all in very high angle orbits to
cover the polar regions and are very high in altitude so they remain over
your optical/radio horizon for very long periods of times because of
their high altitudes. Start clicking on these birds and you'll find a
group of military spy satellites, constellations of high polar
communications birds and the GPS system birds. When you find a GPS bird
in its constellation, note its very high altitude and very high angle
orbit, in relation to the equatorial rotation of the planet. This
insures there are many of the 24 birds in the constellation over the
horizon at any one time. It also makes sure there can be a few outages
with no appreciable change in GPS fix accuracy if we lose a few. This
orbit also makes it very hard for opposition countries to shoot them down
so far up....in spite of what the TV media says.

The exact position of every bird is very accurately known. Each bird
provides very accurate timing pulses from its cesium-beam frequency
standards fed to it from the ground, even with very accurate clock
timing. But, from WAY UP THERE, there ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY WAY for ANY
sellphone, even iPhones!!!, to receive a GPS signal through RF opaque
objects like BUILDINGS or WALLS or SHEET STEEL ROOF PLATES or even a
thick canopy of TREES, which absorb what tiny bit of RF that falls on
your spot on the planet surface into the noise....

THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket
anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY!

In article <[email protected]>, Larry
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > it doesn't 'require' it, but if there's a cell signal available, some
> > of the info that would normally be sent from the gps satellites can be
> > more reliably obtained from the cell towers, thereby dramatically
> > reducing the time to obtain a fix and/or maintaining a fix in weak
> > signal conditions.
>
> Totally false, a fantasy.

actually, it's exactly correct.

....gps info snipped...

> The exact position of every bird is very accurately known. Each bird
> provides very accurate timing pulses from its cesium-beam frequency
> standards fed to it from the ground, even with very accurate clock
> timing. But, from WAY UP THERE, there ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY WAY for ANY
> sellphone, even iPhones!!!, to receive a GPS signal through RF opaque
> objects like BUILDINGS or WALLS or SHEET STEEL ROOF PLATES or even a
> thick canopy of TREES, which absorb what tiny bit of RF that falls on
> your spot on the planet surface into the noise....

that's where the assistance from the cellular network comes into play.
you were paying attention, right?

> THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket
> anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY!

considering that many handheld gps devices work quite well both in a
pocket and inside buildings, there is absolutely no reason that a cell
phone gps will not function just as well, or better.

In message <[email protected]> The Bob <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I should clarify my point here- if the iPhone had true GPS, it would have
>no need for triangulating using networks, which is far less accurate..

Outdoors, and with a bit of time and additional power, GPS is *far* more
accurate.

If you're indoors and want an instant response, triangulation is not a
bad way to go.

In message <[email protected]> Larry
<[email protected]> wrote:

>DevilsPGD <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> But like you say, fantasy, must have been the last known location.
>>
>>
>
>Right, thanks. If GPS could do what Sellphone vendors want....GARMIN, not
>them, would have already been doing it.....and they're not because it's
>physically IMPOSSIBLE.
>
>Now, I CAN see the sleazy sellphone bastards bull****ting the customers
>with some GPS app that gives them the lat/long of the towers, which does
>have a GPS receiver in them because it is where the TIME set on your
>sellphone display comes from. Look at a cell near you closely and you'll
>see a little white dome antenna down on the building or near the base of
>the tower feeding a small coax into the building. That's a GPS antenna,
>just like the ones on someone's yacht.

Go look up the AT&T Tilt (aka HTC Kaiser) specifications. It's a true
GPS. The GPS works with wifi and GSM/3G disabled, out in the mountains
without either type of service being available. It can also accurately
report speed and direction.

But like you say, fantasy.

In article <[email protected]>, DevilsPGD
<[email protected]> wrote:

> In message <[email protected]> The Bob <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >GPS does not require assistance.
>
> No, but it sure helps. Compare a warm-start vs a cold-start on any GPS,
> knowing roughly where you are and having satellite location
> predownloaded significantly helps the GPS user experience.

exactly.

> I'd sure like to know what the iPhone 3G has included, so far I haven't
> seen anything specifically saying it does or does not have a true GPS
> receiver.

there will no doubt be disassembly photos a day or two after it ships,
if that long. possibly even the same day.