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  1. #16
    Beer Drinking Dog
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    SMS wrote:
    > RBM wrote:
    >
    >> You, are obviously the consummate fanboy. Cell phone companies are in
    >> business for one reason, to make a profit. Their goal is to sell the
    >> most product, to make the most money. I would consider "the top
    >> phone", the one that most people want to buy. Apple's phone is a
    >> "smart phone".

    >
    > No it isn't. Apple has never marketed the iPhone as a "Smart Phone."
    >
    > Apple has an excellent description of the iPhone on their web site,
    > "Phone, iPod, and Internet in one fast 3G device." No where do they
    > mention "Smart Phone" or PDA or UPC or handheld computer, because it
    > isn't any of those things.


    Just because Apple doesn't market is such doesn't mean it isn't one.

    >
    > In fact, the iPhone is severely limited as far as running the typical
    > applications used on a "Smart Phone," and the Apps store on iTunes
    > doesn't begin to solve that problem, at least not yet.
    >
    > A lot of the iPhone criticism is based on its lack of capabilities
    > compared to a Blackberry, Windows Mobile based smart phone or Symbian
    > based smart phone, but this is an unfair comparison because Apple didn't
    > design the iPhone to compete with these devices in terms of
    > capabilities, and they never claimed the capabilities of a smart phone.


    So the BlackBerry is a smart phone?

    Okay, I'll bite...

    I have a BB 8700g issued to me by my employer. Prior to buying an
    iPhone, I had a personal 8700g with T-Mobile for two years prior (still
    have it--just dropped the service). I don't have a WinPhone or Symbian
    device, so it wouldn't be fair for me to do the comparison with them.
    I'll compare only what I personally have and have used extensively.

    The BB has a phone. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has voice mail (with old-style audio menu access). So does the
    iPhone (with visual VM interface)
    The BB does e-mail. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has a calendar. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has an address book. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has a memo app. So does the iPhone.
    The BB can do SMS. So can the iPhone.
    The BB can do MMS. iPhone can't (yet). Not really a fair comparison--why
    does the BB handle MMS, but has no easy way to get multimedia onto the
    phone (this model)?
    The BB doesn't have a camera (other models do). The iPhone does.
    The BB can run a downloaded version of Google Maps. The iPhone comes
    standard with the same app.
    The BB doesn't have A-GPS (other models do). The 3G iPhone does.
    The BB has a web browser. So does the iPhone. Neither handles Flash in
    websites.
    The BB has Java. The iPhone doesn't.
    The BB Java development kit is a download from RIM. The iPhone
    development kit is a download from Apple.
    The BB has an alarm clock. So does the iPhone.
    The BB doesn't have a world clock. The iPhone does.
    The BB has a simple 4 function calculator. The iPhone has a full
    scientific calculator (2.0 firmware only).
    The BB has BlueTooth. So does the iPhone. (Although to be fair, the
    iPhone only supports BT for handsfree headsets.)
    The BB 8700 doesn't have a music/audio player. (Other models do.) The
    iPhone has music/audio/video iPod functionality.
    The BB can run third-party applications. So can the iPhone.

    Funny, isn't it. The iPhone is pretty much equal in just about all
    categories of functionality. Better in a few, worse in a few.

    >
    > The iPhone is a phone, music player, and web browser, and Apple seems
    > intent on keeping it that way for now.


    Like it or not, it qualifies as a smart phone.

    Apple has always done things their own way. They didn't just bring out
    another Personal Computer, they brought out "the computer for the rest
    of us." I think they are purposely staying away from the "smart phone"
    label because most smart phones have lots of complicated little keys and
    many run crash prone operating systems by Microsoft. They are trying to
    differentiate themselves. It's called "marketing."



    See More: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!




  2. #17
    Beer Drinking Dog
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    SMS wrote:
    > RBM wrote:
    >
    >> You, are obviously the consummate fanboy. Cell phone companies are in
    >> business for one reason, to make a profit. Their goal is to sell the
    >> most product, to make the most money. I would consider "the top
    >> phone", the one that most people want to buy. Apple's phone is a
    >> "smart phone".

    >
    > No it isn't. Apple has never marketed the iPhone as a "Smart Phone."
    >
    > Apple has an excellent description of the iPhone on their web site,
    > "Phone, iPod, and Internet in one fast 3G device." No where do they
    > mention "Smart Phone" or PDA or UPC or handheld computer, because it
    > isn't any of those things.


    Just because Apple doesn't market is such doesn't mean it isn't one.

    >
    > In fact, the iPhone is severely limited as far as running the typical
    > applications used on a "Smart Phone," and the Apps store on iTunes
    > doesn't begin to solve that problem, at least not yet.
    >
    > A lot of the iPhone criticism is based on its lack of capabilities
    > compared to a Blackberry, Windows Mobile based smart phone or Symbian
    > based smart phone, but this is an unfair comparison because Apple didn't
    > design the iPhone to compete with these devices in terms of
    > capabilities, and they never claimed the capabilities of a smart phone.


    So the BlackBerry is a smart phone?

    Okay, I'll bite...

    I have a BB 8700g issued to me by my employer. Prior to buying an
    iPhone, I had a personal 8700g with T-Mobile for two years prior (still
    have it--just dropped the service). I don't have a WinPhone or Symbian
    device, so it wouldn't be fair for me to do the comparison with them.
    I'll compare only what I personally have and have used extensively.

    The BB has a phone. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has voice mail (with old-style audio menu access). So does the
    iPhone (with visual VM interface)
    The BB does e-mail. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has a calendar. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has an address book. So does the iPhone.
    The BB has a memo app. So does the iPhone.
    The BB can do SMS. So can the iPhone.
    The BB can do MMS. iPhone can't (yet). Not really a fair comparison--why
    does the BB handle MMS, but has no easy way to get multimedia onto the
    phone (this model)?
    The BB doesn't have a camera (other models do). The iPhone does.
    The BB can run a downloaded version of Google Maps. The iPhone comes
    standard with the same app.
    The BB doesn't have A-GPS (other models do). The 3G iPhone does.
    The BB has a web browser. So does the iPhone. Neither handles Flash in
    websites.
    The BB has Java. The iPhone doesn't.
    The BB Java development kit is a download from RIM. The iPhone
    development kit is a download from Apple.
    The BB has an alarm clock. So does the iPhone.
    The BB doesn't have a world clock. The iPhone does.
    The BB has a simple 4 function calculator. The iPhone has a full
    scientific calculator (2.0 firmware only).
    The BB has BlueTooth. So does the iPhone. (Although to be fair, the
    iPhone only supports BT for handsfree headsets.)
    The BB 8700 doesn't have a music/audio player. (Other models do.) The
    iPhone has music/audio/video iPod functionality.
    The BB can run third-party applications. So can the iPhone.

    Funny, isn't it. The iPhone is pretty much equal in just about all
    categories of functionality. Better in a few, worse in a few.

    >
    > The iPhone is a phone, music player, and web browser, and Apple seems
    > intent on keeping it that way for now.


    Like it or not, it qualifies as a smart phone.

    Apple has always done things their own way. They didn't just bring out
    another Personal Computer, they brought out "the computer for the rest
    of us." I think they are purposely staying away from the "smart phone"
    label because most smart phones have lots of complicated little keys and
    many run crash prone operating systems by Microsoft. They are trying to
    differentiate themselves. It's called "marketing."




  3. #18
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    RBM wrote:

    > I can appreciate your point, but while Apple may not market the phone as a
    > "smartphone", it is certainly considered as one by many groups that do
    > comparisons of smartphones, and I think it plays to a "similar" group of
    > phone buyers. Here is a PC world comparison for example :
    > http://www.pcworld.com/article/12539...rt_phones.html


    It may play along side smart phones to buyers looking for a phone that
    can merely browse the web, play music, and make calls.

    It's not playing to those buyers that need to prepare presentations,
    edit documents, do massive amounts of e-mail, or tether to a laptop. The
    fact that some magazines, and apparently a lot of fanboys that post to
    forums believe that it's a smart phone doesn't change the fact that
    Apple doesn't consider it to be one.



  4. #19
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    Larry wrote:

    > Case in point....Apple vs Micro$oft. Apple COULD have wiped Micro$oft
    > off the planet, swept them aside, if it hadn't been so greedy and
    > proprietary and closed up. The outside dreamers and coders made Bill
    > Gates the richest man in the world, just because he opened up a tiny
    > little hole in his company and let them play in his playroom, without
    > forcing them to do his bidding and telling them what they could and
    > could not do with his OS.


    Or only sell what he did permit them to provide, through him.



  5. #20
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    Beer Drinking Dog wrote:
    > SMS wrote:
    >> RBM wrote:
    >>
    >>> You, are obviously the consummate fanboy. Cell phone companies are in
    >>> business for one reason, to make a profit. Their goal is to sell the
    >>> most product, to make the most money. I would consider "the top
    >>> phone", the one that most people want to buy. Apple's phone is a
    >>> "smart phone".

    >>
    >> No it isn't. Apple has never marketed the iPhone as a "Smart Phone."
    >>
    >> Apple has an excellent description of the iPhone on their web site,
    >> "Phone, iPod, and Internet in one fast 3G device." No where do they
    >> mention "Smart Phone" or PDA or UPC or handheld computer, because it
    >> isn't any of those things.

    >
    > Just because Apple doesn't market is such doesn't mean it isn't one.


    That's correct. The reason it isn't one is because it lacks the
    capabilities of a smart phone, not because what Apple says.

    > So the BlackBerry is a smart phone?
    >
    > Okay, I'll bite...


    <snip>

    The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry. I.e.
    if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.

    But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.



  6. #21
    4phun
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    On Jul 19, 12:25*pm, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:


    Larry, Yawn

    That great 'physics game' has been on the iPhone from the begining. It
    is called iPhysics and has many, many applications that it launches
    including a neat Pin ball machine that is very real from sound to
    shaking the table.

    So you guys ripped it off eh and added it to the Nokia?You are still
    following Apple and the Apple fan boy comunity of slick developers.

    You could have been there are year ago on the iPhone. I remember
    seeing them talking about the iPhone's iPhysics on TV before I even
    bought the iPhone.




  7. #22
    4phun
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    On Jul 19, 2:35*pm, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Beer Drinking Dog wrote:
    > > SMS wrote:
    > >> RBM wrote:


    > That's correct. The reason it isn't one is because it lacks the
    > capabilities of a smart phone, not because what Apple says.
    >


    > <snip>
    >
    > The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry. I.e.
    > if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    > document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    > Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.
    >
    > But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    > Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    What moron is going to create a complex document or spreadsheet on a /
    smart phone/?

    Only in their dreams, it is not the right tool for the job. It is like
    cutting down a tree with a pen knife.

    If he worked for me and on my time tried that I would fire him
    outright. End of story.



  8. #23
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    At 19 Jul 2008 14:28:33 -0700 4phun wrote:
    > > The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry. I.e.
    > > if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    > > document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    > > Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.
    > >
    > > But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    > > Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.

    >
    > What moron is going to create a complex document or spreadsheet on a /
    > smart phone/?



    Very few- but many "morons" like myself tend to EDIT pre-existing documents
    on theirphones, or loko up reference information in documents stored
    locally on their phone.

    And, yes, in a pinch, this moron has create short documents on my Windows
    Mobile pone.

    > If he worked for me and on my time tried that I would fire him
    > outright. End of story.



    If you worked for me I'd have issued you a REAL smartphone the minute we
    figured out what your peronal iPhone WASN'T able to do! ;-)





  9. #24
    Craig
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 19 Jul 2008 14:28:33 -0700 4phun wrote:
    >>> The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry. I.e.
    >>> if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    >>> document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    >>> Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.
    >>>
    >>> But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    >>> Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.

    >> What moron is going to create a complex document or spreadsheet on a /
    >> smart phone/?

    >
    >
    > Very few- but many "morons" like myself tend to EDIT pre-existing documents
    > on theirphones...


    Yup. In looking at smartphones (well, feverishly awaiting the e71),
    this one ability is the clincher.

    I can do without most of the other features but being able to /modify an
    offer/ before going into that second meeting with a client (or that new
    meeting with a second client)...

    priceless,
    -Craig



  10. #25
    Beer Drinking Dog
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    4phun wrote:
    > On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Beer Drinking Dog wrote:
    >>> SMS wrote:
    >>>> RBM wrote:

    >
    >> That's correct. The reason it isn't one is because it lacks the
    >> capabilities of a smart phone, not because what Apple says.
    >>

    >
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry. I.e.
    >> if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    >> document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    >> Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.
    >>
    >> But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    >> Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > What moron is going to create a complex document or spreadsheet on a /
    > smart phone/?
    >
    > Only in their dreams, it is not the right tool for the job. It is like
    > cutting down a tree with a pen knife.
    >
    > If he worked for me and on my time tried that I would fire him
    > outright. End of story.


    Amen.

    Just because you can edit documents on a BB or WinPhone doesn't mean you
    *should*. Only a masochist would attempt it.

    Being able to view them, is however another matter. If you're traveling,
    and someone sends you something, you can view it and decide whether you
    need to call someone back at the office to take care of it, or it can
    wait until you return to the office.



  11. #26
    Beer Drinking Dog
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    Craig wrote:
    > Todd Allcock wrote:
    >> At 19 Jul 2008 14:28:33 -0700 4phun wrote:
    >>>> The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry.
    >>>> I.e.
    >>>> if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    >>>> document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    >>>> Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.
    >>>>
    >>>> But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    >>>> Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.
    >>> What moron is going to create a complex document or spreadsheet on a /
    >>> smart phone/?

    >>
    >>
    >> Very few- but many "morons" like myself tend to EDIT pre-existing
    >> documents
    >> on theirphones...

    >
    > Yup. In looking at smartphones (well, feverishly awaiting the e71),
    > this one ability is the clincher.
    >
    > I can do without most of the other features but being able to /modify an
    > offer/ before going into that second meeting with a client (or that new
    > meeting with a second client)...
    >
    > priceless,
    > -Craig


    If I was the client and you walked into a presentation with only a smart
    phone, I'd take your presentation about as seriously as you obviously
    do. That is: Not much....

    I'd wonder why you place so much faith in a single gadget and why you're
    more concerned with your own comfort (carrying only a lightweight phone
    instead of a laptop) than in my needs as the client. I'd take seriously
    the business person that had the presentation electronically *and* on
    paper, already printed and ready to give, as well as the alternative
    offer already prepared. I don't like people that can't plan ahead.



  12. #27
    Beer Drinking Dog
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    SMS wrote:
    > Craig wrote:
    >
    >> I can do without most of the other features but being able to /modify
    >> an offer/ before going into that second meeting with a client (or that
    >> new meeting with a second client)...

    >
    > Again, Apple makes no claims that the iPhone is competing in the smart
    > phone market, at least for those users that need the true smart phone
    > capabilities. It's a good web browser, music player, and a somewhat lame
    > GSM phone, so if that's what someone needs, it's a good product. It
    > lacks most of the true smart phone features.


    Repeating it over and over doesn't necessarily make it true.



  13. #28
    David Moyer
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    In article <[email protected]>,
    SMS <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >> Apple has an excellent description of the iPhone on their web site,
    > >> "Phone, iPod, and Internet in one fast 3G device." No where do they
    > >> mention "Smart Phone" or PDA or UPC or handheld computer, because it
    > >> isn't any of those things.

    > >
    > > Just because Apple doesn't market is such doesn't mean it isn't one.

    >
    > That's correct. The reason it isn't one is because it lacks the
    > capabilities of a smart phone, not because what Apple says.


    but the iphone changes all definitions of all phones, so everything
    apple does will now be shaped / modeled by the iphone, no other cell
    phone matters at this point in the game.

    > > So the BlackBerry is a smart phone?
    > >
    > > Okay, I'll bite...

    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > The big difference is the range of applications for the Blackberry. I.e.
    > if you want to create/edit an Excel spreadsheet, create/edit a Word
    > document, or create/edit a Powerpoint document, you can do it on a
    > Blackberry, but not on an iPhone.


    but the iphone app store has only been around for 8 days. the
    blackberry, some 5 years... so it's quite clear the blackberry has now
    been buried by the simple force of momentum.

    > But you're correct that a WinMo device has more capability than a
    > Blackberry, and far more capability than an iPhone.


    not for long, the iphone will clearly kill off all other smart phones.

    the massive size of the OSX development communitity and larger installed
    base of the iphone units dictates it.

    but let's all remember Palm, RIMM, Moto, Nokia for what they tried to
    accomplish during their heyday, they really tried before Apple entered
    their market... now, there isn't anything they can do to stop the iphone
    from taking over.

    a good video is here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Tbh_umdSg



  14. #29
    Carl
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > "Carl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >> I know you're a huge Nokia fan, and I agree that the sleeping giant
    >> has been awakened, but I believe you have the wrong company for that
    >> title. Keep your eyes on the Blackberry Thunder, due to arrive in
    >> the last quarter of this year and my guess is you might find an
    >> iPhone with many of its flaws fixed, or at least added
    >> functionality, and certainly the (still) better network:
    >>
    >> http://crackberry.com/details-touchs...kberry-thunder

    >
    > I have my doubts on the either the device's existence, or it's
    > supposed release date of 3rd quarter this year. It's too radical a
    > departure for RIM to be releasing in just a couple of months- in
    > typical cellphone fanboy style, someone would've dug up the FCC
    > applications, leaked mock up pictures etc. if it was due within 60-90
    > days.
    > And I REALLY have a hard time believing a completely keyboardless
    > Blackberry is on the drawing boards. For all of the iPhone's
    > positives, and the love it's users have for it, a study of early
    > iPhone owners told us the ONE thing the majority of users wanted to
    > see added to a future model was a "real" keyboard or at least a
    > dialpad. Why "copy" the competitor's product with one that has the
    > same achille's heel, particularly when that "heel" happens to be your
    > company's signature feature (meaning RIM and keyboards!)
    > I might be all wet, but I suspect that RIM has something else up their
    > sleeve- surely a larger/higher-res screen device with better browser
    > and multimedia, but I doubt they'll copy the iPhone form factor that
    > closely- I'd think a slide-out keyboard hidden beneath a larger
    > screen would be more their style than a completely keyboardless
    > device.
    > Just my gut feeling, (and I'm sure I'm my gut's wrong, as well as
    > being far too large!)
    >

    What you're saying makes sense to me. But, while due dates are often missed
    by a margin, there are just so many 'reports' of the Thunder that it seems
    hard to totally discount it as a device. I guess we'll see soon enough.

    I, on the other hand, just bought an iPod Touch (I got a great deal from a
    graduate student who got one included with her Apple computer purchase and
    didn't want it) and just finished installing the 2.0 software update. I want
    to experiment with the iphone's functionality and see how I like it before I
    consider switching.






  15. #30
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: Oh, oh....The Dragon Awakes!

    At 19 Jul 2008 21:06:35 -0600 David Moyer wrote:


    > not for long, the iphone will clearly kill off all other smart phones.
    >
    > the massive size of the OSX development communitity and larger installed
    > base of the iphone units dictates it.



    Not if any real development is stifled by the draconian terms of the SDK
    that others have reported.


    > but let's all remember Palm, RIMM, Moto, Nokia for what they tried to
    > accomplish during their heyday, they really tried before Apple entered
    > their market... now, there isn't anything they can do to stop the iphone
    > from taking over.



    Except do what they already do: provide steak instead of sizzle.

    Let's see a few apps that'll turn the iPhone into a smartphone, or else
    it'll remain exactly what it is today: "the best iPod ever."


    > a good video is here:
    >
    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Tbh_umdSg



    Excactly my point- the iPhone compares very favorably vs. other non-
    smartphones. I have no doubt it'll crush every other current phone in it's
    category: multimedia "feature" phones.







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