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  1. #1
    Steven J Sobol
    Guest
    Calvin White <[email protected]> wrote:

    > My bill with Cingular was $190.00. It included two activation fees plus
    > service for one month. The bill was due on the 16th, on the 20th I got a
    > reminder notice (text message) I called and made a partial payment of
    > $120.00, it was explained to me that this would be alright as long as I paid
    > the remaining balance on the 1st on the upcoming month.


    Which probably shouldn't have been said to you, because typically cellular
    companies don't do this. I had to call and talk to Financial Services/
    Accounts Receivable and make special arrangements a couple times when I could
    not pay my Verizon bill in full. Customer Service generally does NOT have
    the authority to make arrangements like that, regardless of which carrier
    you use.

    > On the 31st the phone was deactivated, no phone call to warn, no text
    > message. My wife was broken down on the side of the road and tried to use
    > her phone only to find it would not work. She managed to get to a pay phone
    > and later that day I contacted Cingular. The rep stated that the account was
    > disconnected because of failure to make payment in full and that there would
    > be a $39 reactivation fee. I reminded them of our agreement and the best
    > they could offer up was "I'm sorry that rep did not have the power to make
    > that arrangement with you". I then ask if I could have the activation fee
    > wavered just once. The answer "No". I asked to speak to an account manager.
    > This took about 20 minutes, once on the line this person was one of the most
    > soulless human beings I have encountered, the conversation went something
    > like this:
    >
    > Me- "There's been some misunderstanding about my account, I had made an
    > arrangement to pay off the remaining balance in full on the 1st".
    >
    > Collection Manager: "We do not make those kind of arrangements sir".
    >
    > Me- "Well, seeing as there was a misunderstanding, would it be possible to
    > wave the $39 activation fee"
    >
    > Collection Manager. "I'm unable to do that"
    >
    > Me- "Come-on I'm only 16 days late on this account, don't you have kind of
    > grace period"
    >
    > Collection Manager. "No"
    >
    > Me- "Can I speak with your supervisor?"


    > Collection Manager. "My supervisor is not in the office right now"
    >
    > Me- "Well I..."
    >
    > Collection Manager. "My supervisor would tell you the same thing I am
    > telling you now"
    >
    > Me- "Well can I get their name anyway?"
    >
    > Collection Manager. "He will have to call you back"
    >
    > Me- "Can I.."
    >
    > Collection Manager. "Do you intend to pay your bill today sir?"


    Yeah. Verizon's better than most in this regard - at least the collections
    people aren't complete drones.

    > This is what to expect to get from Cingular should you have problems paying
    > a bill. They have a zero tolerance for late payments. While I understand
    > that is their right and I don't feel consumers should abuse credit or
    > service contracts I think its best to have a service provider with a little
    > understanding. If you agree, Cingular most certainly does not "fit you
    > best".


    If you talked to CS, that's your problem. I know nothing about how Cingular
    works, but in the future, perhaps people who can't pay the entire bill all
    at once should talk to someone other than CS - I'd suggest asking for
    Financial Services and explaining the problem. (Note that the appropriate
    Cingular department may be named something else; "Financial Services" is
    just a suggestion.)

    Don't expect Customer Service reps to be allowed to make payment arrangements
    on your account.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



    See More: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!




  2. #2
    Quick
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    Steven J Sobol wrote:
    >
    > If you talked to CS, that's your problem. I know nothing about how
    > Cingular works, but in the future, perhaps people who can't pay the
    > entire bill all at once should talk to someone other than CS - I'd
    > suggest asking for Financial Services and explaining the problem.
    > (Note that the appropriate Cingular department may be named something
    > else; "Financial Services" is just a suggestion.)
    >
    > Don't expect Customer Service reps to be allowed to make payment
    > arrangements on your account.


    I would at least expect CS to say something like "We are not authorized
    to make adjustments of that kind. Would you like me to connect you to
    Financial Services?"...

    Customer Service should be a single point of initial contact for customers.

    -Quick





  3. #3
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:35:29 -0500, Steven
    J Sobol <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Calvin White <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> My bill with Cingular was $190.00. It included two activation fees plus
    >> service for one month. The bill was due on the 16th, on the 20th I got a
    >> reminder notice (text message) I called and made a partial payment of
    >> $120.00, it was explained to me that this would be alright as long as I paid
    >> the remaining balance on the 1st on the upcoming month.

    >
    >Which probably shouldn't have been said to you, because typically cellular
    >companies don't do this. I had to call and talk to Financial Services/
    >Accounts Receivable and make special arrangements a couple times when I could
    >not pay my Verizon bill in full. Customer Service generally does NOT have
    >the authority to make arrangements like that, regardless of which carrier
    >you use.


    Whether CS has "the authority to make arrangements like that" or not is
    irrelevant -- if CS did indeed say that (and noted it in the CS computer log),
    then the company is *bound* by that representation. I'd be willing to bet
    that the OP could get satisfaction with a bit of persistence.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  4. #4
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <1091318982.495217@sj-nntpcache-5> on Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:13:16 -0700,
    "Quick" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Steven J Sobol wrote:
    >>
    >> If you talked to CS, that's your problem. I know nothing about how
    >> Cingular works, but in the future, perhaps people who can't pay the
    >> entire bill all at once should talk to someone other than CS - I'd
    >> suggest asking for Financial Services and explaining the problem.
    >> (Note that the appropriate Cingular department may be named something
    >> else; "Financial Services" is just a suggestion.)
    >>
    >> Don't expect Customer Service reps to be allowed to make payment
    >> arrangements on your account.

    >
    >I would at least expect CS to say something like "We are not authorized
    >to make adjustments of that kind. Would you like me to connect you to
    >Financial Services?"...
    >
    >Customer Service should be a single point of initial contact for customers.


    Correct.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  5. #5
    Steven J Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    In alt.cellular.verizon Quick <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I would at least expect CS to say something like "We are not authorized
    > to make adjustments of that kind. Would you like me to connect you to
    > Financial Services?"...


    Well, yes, I too would expect that.

    > Customer Service should be a single point of initial contact for customers.


    Mmm, I'd modify that slighty to say the first point, not a single point. More
    often than not they should be the only people you need to talk to, but in
    some cases they WILL need to transfer you elsewhere.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



  6. #6
    Steven J Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    In alt.cellular.verizon John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Whether CS has "the authority to make arrangements like that" or not is
    > irrelevant -- if CS did indeed say that (and noted it in the CS computer log),
    > then the company is *bound* by that representation. I'd be willing to bet
    > that the OP could get satisfaction with a bit of persistence.


    Again, we're talking about Cingular here. My experience is with Verizon and
    Sprint. You may very well be right.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



  7. #7
    The Ghost of General Lee
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 00:37:50 GMT, John Navas
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Whether CS has "the authority to make arrangements like that" or not is
    >irrelevant -- if CS did indeed say that (and noted it in the CS computer log),
    >then the company is *bound* by that representation.


    Bound? Even if it was logged, the contract trumps all oral
    (mis)representations. Please take that argument before an arbitrator
    or judge sometime and let us know how long they laughed for.

    >I'd be willing to bet
    >that the OP could get satisfaction with a bit of persistence.


    And I'd be willing to be he'd get even more satisfaction if he handled
    his finances better. He knew he had a large bill coming in (with
    activation fees, so this wasn't some "accidentally high" bill), he
    should have known it was coming and made preparations for payment. If
    he didn't have the money, he shouldn't have signed the contract.




  8. #8
    desi
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    If this was the first bill (and new customer) the fact that he/she couldn't
    pay the first invoice would be a red flag with any company.


    "The Ghost of General Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 00:37:50 GMT, John Navas
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Whether CS has "the authority to make arrangements like that" or not is
    > >irrelevant -- if CS did indeed say that (and noted it in the CS computer

    log),
    > >then the company is *bound* by that representation.

    >
    > >

    > And I'd be willing to be he'd get even more satisfaction if he handled
    > his finances better. He knew he had a large bill coming in (with
    > activation fees, so this wasn't some "accidentally high" bill), he
    > should have known it was coming and made preparations for payment. If
    > he didn't have the money, he shouldn't have signed the contract.
    >






  9. #9
    Calvin White
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!





    "The Ghost of General Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > And I'd be willing to be he'd get even more satisfaction if he handled
    > his finances better. He knew he had a large bill coming in (with
    > activation fees, so this wasn't some "accidentally high" bill), he
    > should have known it was coming and made preparations for payment. If
    > he didn't have the money, he shouldn't have signed the contract.
    >



    That's an easy statement to make now isn't it. Unfortunately not everyone
    lives with a cushion in the bank. Unfortunate events happen sometimes. When
    I signed the contract I had full intention of paying the bill in full, when
    that wasn't going to be possible I made payment arrangements Cingular (had
    made payment arrangements.. they voided those arrangement without warning or
    notification) I believe they did this because. A.) According to the terms of
    the contract Cingular knew I could do nothing about this behavior. B.) They
    wanted to collect an additional $40 from me (the re-activation fee).

    This model isn't new. It's been done on a smaler scale for many years now.
    Look at movie rental shops. They make considerable profits from late fees on
    movie returns. Those fees are in fact part of their strategy, why would a
    phone company be any different? I believe when you sign a contract you are
    bond by that contract, but I also feel companies should be ethical and
    understanding.

    Based on my experience I believe Cingular to be an unethical company that
    likes to put punishment (and bank) on customers mistakes (and in my case
    outright lie to customers). The proof of this is in their actions. How much
    money are they losing by reactivating an account? This entire process is
    done electronically. It takes a few minutes of a customer service reps time
    to complete this process. This customer service time is provided to all
    Cingular customers anyway (yes, part of our monthly bill pays their wages).
    I wouldn't expect Cingular to waver reactivation cost again and again, but
    it seems they could make an exception, especially in the light of my
    circumstances.









  10. #10
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 01 Aug 2004 05:53:12
    -0400, The Ghost of General Lee <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 00:37:50 GMT, John Navas
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Whether CS has "the authority to make arrangements like that" or not is
    >>irrelevant -- if CS did indeed say that (and noted it in the CS computer log),
    >>then the company is *bound* by that representation.

    >
    >Bound? Even if it was logged, the contract trumps all oral
    >(mis)representations.


    The contract trumps only if it disclaims such oral representations (which
    would be pretty silly and probably unenforceable; e.g., "Subscriber may not
    reply on oral representations, even by responsible employees of the
    Company.").

    >Please take that argument before an arbitrator
    >or judge sometime and let us know how long they laughed for.


    I think (based on experience) there's a very good chance that such an oral
    representation would be taken quite seriously in appropriate forums.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  11. #11
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 01 Aug 2004 05:53:12
    -0400, The Ghost of General Lee <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 00:37:50 GMT, John Navas
    ><[email protected]> wrote:


    >>I'd be willing to bet
    >>that the OP could get satisfaction with a bit of persistence.

    >
    >And I'd be willing to be he'd get even more satisfaction if he handled
    >his finances better. He knew he had a large bill coming in (with
    >activation fees, so this wasn't some "accidentally high" bill), he
    >should have known it was coming and made preparations for payment. If
    >he didn't have the money, he shouldn't have signed the contract.


    You're making assumptions that I find pretty offensive. The unexpected can
    and does happen. It's quite possible that the OP had expenses and/or lost
    income that couldn't have been reasonably anticipated.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  12. #12
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:41:40 GMT,
    "Calvin White" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >... When
    >I signed the contract I had full intention of paying the bill in full, when
    >that wasn't going to be possible I made payment arrangements Cingular (had
    >made payment arrangements.. they voided those arrangement without warning or
    >notification) I believe they did this because. A.) According to the terms of
    >the contract Cingular knew I could do nothing about this behavior.


    I believe you could do something, as I've explained previously.

    >B.) They
    >wanted to collect an additional $40 from me (the re-activation fee).


    Or C) Cingular expects contracts to be honored, and wasn't sufficiently
    persuaded to do otherwise.

    >This model isn't new. It's been done on a smaler scale for many years now.
    >Look at movie rental shops. They make considerable profits from late fees on
    >movie returns. Those fees are in fact part of their strategy,


    In this area at least, those late fees simply constitute additional rental and
    compensation for lost use, and are thus quite appropriate.

    >why would a
    >phone company be any different? I believe when you sign a contract you are
    >bond by that contract, but I also feel companies should be ethical and
    >understanding.


    Ethical, yes, but "understanding" only when it's in the best interests of the
    company. OTOH, I feel subscribers should be prudent, realistic, and willing
    to accept responsibility for their own conduct.

    >Based on my experience I believe Cingular to be an unethical company that
    >likes to put punishment (and bank) on customers mistakes (and in my case
    >outright lie to customers). The proof of this is in their actions.


    I see no such "proof," just inferences.

    >How much
    >money are they losing by reactivating an account? This entire process is
    >done electronically. It takes a few minutes of a customer service reps time
    >to complete this process.


    There is a real cost of reactivation to the company, but think of it much like
    a returned check charge, because there's also the real cost of dealing with a
    delinquent account.

    >This customer service time is provided to all
    >Cingular customers anyway (yes, part of our monthly bill pays their wages).


    Those costs aren't incurred when bills are paid on time.

    >I wouldn't expect Cingular to waver reactivation cost again and again,


    OTOH, this was the first bill, so there wasn't an established history with the
    company, and thus the company might well fear that it would happen again and
    again.

    >but
    >it seems they could make an exception, especially in the light of my
    >circumstances.


    As I've noted previously, I think Cingular could be persuaded to honor such a
    representation (if such a representation was actually made).

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  13. #13
    The Ghost of General Lee
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:41:40 GMT, "Calvin White" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >"The Ghost of General Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> And I'd be willing to be he'd get even more satisfaction if he handled
    >> his finances better. He knew he had a large bill coming in (with
    >> activation fees, so this wasn't some "accidentally high" bill), he
    >> should have known it was coming and made preparations for payment. If
    >> he didn't have the money, he shouldn't have signed the contract.
    >>

    >
    >That's an easy statement to make now isn't it. Unfortunately not everyone
    >lives with a cushion in the bank. Unfortunate events happen sometimes. When
    >I signed the contract I had full intention of paying the bill in full,


    Wait right there. You had "full intention"? I didn't see anything
    about actually having the money. If finances in your life are so
    tight, then you should have paid something on your account the day you
    signed up, so that the next bill would be more within your ability to
    pay. If I walk out of a customer's office after doing work for them,
    send them a bill, then I get some lame-ass excuse that they had
    intended to pay blah, blah, blah, then I'll see them in magistrate's
    court. I've been doing business like this for 26 years, and I've
    fortunately never had an account go that far.

    I've never had what most would consider a "cushion in the bank", but
    my bills get paid every month, and I know not to take on more than I
    can afford.

    >when
    >that wasn't going to be possible I made payment arrangements Cingular (had
    >made payment arrangements.. they voided those arrangement without warning or
    >notification) I believe they did this because. A.) According to the terms of
    >the contract Cingular knew I could do nothing about this behavior. B.) They
    >wanted to collect an additional $40 from me (the re-activation fee).


    Because you handled the entire matter incorrectly. As others have
    told you, you talked to the wrong person. Of course, you could have
    avoided the situation entirely by not signing up for something you
    obviously couldn't afford. Cellular phones are still (despite some
    arguments that I'm sure this statement will generate) luxury items,
    not necessities of life. It sounds like you need to get your
    priorities in order.

    >
    >This model isn't new. It's been done on a smaler scale for many years now.
    >Look at movie rental shops. They make considerable profits from late fees on
    >movie returns. Those fees are in fact part of their strategy, why would a
    >phone company be any different? I believe when you sign a contract you are
    >bond by that contract, but I also feel companies should be ethical and
    >understanding.


    Hmm, having rented video tapes and DVDs for years, I cannot seem to
    recall ever paying a late fee. Maybe it's because I've always
    returned them on-time. I think your true personality is coming out.
    You sound like the type (and I know of a few personally) who just get
    mad at anything that holds them financially responsible for their own
    actions.

    >Based on my experience I believe Cingular to be an unethical company that
    >likes to put punishment (and bank) on customers mistakes (and in my case
    >outright lie to customers). The proof of this is in their actions. How much
    >money are they losing by reactivating an account? This entire process is
    >done electronically. It takes a few minutes of a customer service reps time
    >to complete this process. This customer service time is provided to all
    >Cingular customers anyway (yes, part of our monthly bill pays their wages).
    >I wouldn't expect Cingular to waver reactivation cost again and again, but
    >it seems they could make an exception, especially in the light of my
    >circumstances.


    Based on your postings, I believe you are a whiney, unresponsible
    little troll. Account Reactivation fees are not just there to recoup
    costs. They are there in part as an additional deterrent to paying
    your bills late.

    So pay your bills and shut the hell up about it.




  14. #14
    The Ghost of General Lee
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!

    On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:52:54 GMT, John Navas
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The contract trumps only if it disclaims such oral representations (which
    >would be pretty silly and probably unenforceable; e.g., "Subscriber may not
    >reply on oral representations, even by responsible employees of the
    >Company.").


    Ever see a cellular contract lately that didn't have that in it?

    >>Please take that argument before an arbitrator
    >>or judge sometime and let us know how long they laughed for.

    >
    >I think (based on experience) there's a very good chance that such an oral
    >representation would be taken quite seriously in appropriate forums.


    Based on the word of a CSR who doesn't have the authority to issue
    such offers? I don't think so, unless you mean usenet to be that
    "appropriate forum".

    The breach of contract had already occurred with the late payment.
    Cingular could have been really nasty and hit him with the ETF, but
    decided to give him another chnace to redeem himself. They owed him
    nothing more.




  15. #15
    Calvin White
    Guest

    Re: Cingular- Make a partial payment, get your phone disconnected!


    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > >How much
    > >money are they losing by reactivating an account? This entire process is
    > >done electronically. It takes a few minutes of a customer service reps

    time
    > >to complete this process.

    >
    > There is a real cost of reactivation to the company, but think of it much

    like
    > a returned check charge, because there's also the real cost of dealing

    with a
    > delinquent account.
    >


    I want to thank you for your comments, they have been helpful. This one
    point though is very important. The reactivation fee is really what the
    argument is over and I still don't see "real cost" involved. The return
    check analogy is flawed. Let's examine that scenario: If a check is written
    for an amount of funds unavailable, multiple parties are unconvinced. First
    you have the receiving (third-party) that provided goods or services in good
    faith that monies were available to back the check. When the check "bounces"
    this delays payment to the third-party. There's also a direct correlations
    here between irresponsibility of the check writer a returned check. There
    are few circumstances out this persons control, many times are hard and they
    don't have funds available. It's still irresponsible of them to write a
    check for an amount they know is not available in their account. It is also
    their responsibility to know how much is available in their account at any
    given time.

    If you contrast his with Reactivation/Activation of a cell phone there is
    very little in common. For starters there generally isn't a third-party
    involved in the reactivation. The service rep will key in a request for
    reactivation and from there the automated system picks up the request and
    sends a signal to the phone to "activate" it. For a detailed explanation of
    this process (with all the technical garbage) see:

    Wireless Internet Applications & Architecture
    by Mark Beaulieu

    How do I know this? Because I work with wireless application development and
    have been involved with cell phone technology more than I wish to discuss.
    The point is, and this is a very pivotal point to this whole discussion;
    when we talk about activation/reactivation fees, we're talking about a
    service that has traditionally been billed to cover the clerical cost of
    data entry (all of which requires 5-10 minutes of filling out a few
    electronic forms). When a company such as Cingular would try to lead its
    customers to believe otherwise, that's where the question of ethics comes
    into play. The cost to reactivate an account is next ot nothing because
    there aren't any forms to fill out, perhaps there is a comments section for
    a sentence or two, but the majority of the information is already in the
    system.

    Make no mistake, reactivation fees are a form of penality/punishment.
    Namely, they are a way for Cingular to collect big on their customers
    mistakes (and in my case misfortune). Cingular should be shamed for what
    they are doing, there may be a story here for anyone who cares to follow it
    (assuming I'm not an isolated case).


















    is almost 100% automated. The only portion that isn't automated takes about
    five minutes and maybe a fifth grade education to perform. I know this first
    hand from



    > Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    > John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>






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