ATT-Cingular Hell - Tower problem help needed

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:56:22 GMT, John Navas wrote:
> Mangus Pyke wrote:
>>I'd have to find a backup with my ATTWS contract on it. ...
>
>I suggest you contact Cingular for a copy of the current contract.

She's actually bound by the ATTWS contract provisions, not the
Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in
a class-action lawsuit.

>>The only contract I have access to at the moment is Cingular's, which
>>is irrelevant.
>
>What's relevant is that Cingular assumed all ATTWS contracts, and probably has
>the right to modify them, albeit with subscribers having the right to
>terminate if such modifications are significant.

Yes, but only with notification. They have done neither (modification
nor expressed intent to modify) as of yet.

>>>Cingular is still providing service. That coverage isn't prefect in all areas
>>>is a given and specifically disclaimed.
>>
>>They're not providing her a reasonable level of service. It's a far
>>cry between "isn't perfect in all areas", and "4 out of 5 calls drop
>>before connection".
>
>That would have to be proven.

The dropped calls show on her billing invoice each month.

>>Agreed. But they are also the only way to get the attention of a
>>company as large as Cingular.
>
>I doubt that Cingular is terribly concerned.

I don't know.. they budget for individual settlements, but
class-action settlements can get expensive. A few of them would get
Cingular's attention, I suspect.

>>>I speak from experience: I had a dispute with Cingular a couple of years ago
>>>that was quickly and amicably resolved in my favor after I filed a complaint
>>>with my local BBB.
>>
>>I appreciate the information. That will be my next stop.
>
>I wish you the best of luck. Let us know how it goes.

Thanks, John-

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner

---

› See More: ATT-Cingular Hell - Tower problem help needed

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:19:21
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:51:33 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>>Mangus Pyke wrote:

>>>Unfortunately, the COO did not answer when she called. She was stuck
>>>having to talk to representatives of the company.
>>
>>Employees, not "representatives" (in the legal sense).
>
>Schematics. To a customer calling into the customer service center
>(expecting customer service), these people represent the company.

Actually legality. Statements by customer service people (especially when
unverifiable) don't bind the company or modify the Service Agreement.

>>>Do you realize the likelihood that a single individual can afford the
>>>(a) legal costs or (b) time to fight a company the size of one of the
>>>major wireless providers?
>>
>>Small Claims Court.
>
>Full Time Student

Big deal. I'm full time employed.

>>>She's communicating with an attorney in NJ that is trying to certify a
>>>class-action lawsuit, but there's no telling how long that will take,
>>>and it's certainly unlikely that it would occur before the end of her
>>>contract.
>>
>>Waste of time (IMHO).
>>
>>File a complaint with the BBB.
>
>Duly noted. I think that the BBB is actually the route she's going to
>take.

Best place to start.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:23:25
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:56:22 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>> Mangus Pyke wrote:
>>>I'd have to find a backup with my ATTWS contract on it. ...
>>
>>I suggest you contact Cingular for a copy of the current contract.
>
>She's actually bound by the ATTWS contract provisions, not the
>Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in
>a class-action lawsuit.

She's actually bound by her current contract, which is with Cingular now that
ATTWS no longer exists.

>>What's relevant is that Cingular assumed all ATTWS contracts, and probably has
>>the right to modify them, albeit with subscribers having the right to
>>terminate if such modifications are significant.
>
>Yes, but only with notification. They have done neither (modification
>nor expressed intent to modify) as of yet.

She may well have overlooked notification. Does she read all of every bill
carefully? ;-)

>>>They're not providing her a reasonable level of service. It's a far
>>>cry between "isn't perfect in all areas", and "4 out of 5 calls drop
>>>before connection".
>>
>>That would have to be proven.
>
>The dropped calls show on her billing invoice each month.

The "4 out of 5 calls [that] drop *before* connection?" [emphasis added]
Really? ;-)

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:32:58 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>In <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:19:21
> Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Schematics. To a customer calling into the customer service center
>>(expecting customer service), these people represent the company.
>
>Actually legality. Statements by customer service people (especially when
>unverifiable) don't bind the company or modify the Service Agreement.

To a customer, they represent the company. She's a customer.

>>Full Time Student
>
>Big deal. I'm full time employed.

You have time to spend several hours on the phone with Cingular
everytime there's a problem?

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:37:55 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>In <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:23:25
>Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>She's actually bound by the ATTWS contract provisions, not the
>>Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in
>>a class-action lawsuit.
>
>She's actually bound by her current contract, which is with Cingular now that
>ATTWS no longer exists.

She has the same contract, Cingular is the "Provider" in it.

>>>What's relevant is that Cingular assumed all ATTWS contracts, and probably has
>>>the right to modify them, albeit with subscribers having the right to
>>>terminate if such modifications are significant.
>>
>>Yes, but only with notification. They have done neither (modification
>>nor expressed intent to modify) as of yet.
>
>She may well have overlooked notification. Does she read all of every bill
>carefully? ;-)

We both read our bills carefully. I have't been notified of anything
such as this on mine either.

>>>>They're not providing her a reasonable level of service. It's a far
>>>>cry between "isn't perfect in all areas", and "4 out of 5 calls drop
>>>>before connection".
>>>
>>>That would have to be proven.
>>
>>The dropped calls show on her billing invoice each month.
>
>The "4 out of 5 calls [that] drop *before* connection?" [emphasis added]
>Really? ;-)

Yes, they're denoted with "D" for the call characteristics. Not sure
if detailed billing through Cingular (Orange) does that or not. It's
been there since we both had ATTWS.

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:07:27
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:32:58 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>>In <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:19:21

>>Actually legality. Statements by customer service people (especially when
>>unverifiable) don't bind the company or modify the Service Agreement.
>
>To a customer, they represent the company. She's a customer.

Caveat emptor.

>>Big deal. I'm full time employed.
>
>You have time to spend several hours on the phone with Cingular
>everytime there's a problem?

Nope, and I don't -- since the start of this year I've been able to resolve
all of my issues in a fraction of an hour.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:11:05
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:37:55 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>>In <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:23:25

>>She's actually bound by her current contract, which is with Cingular now that
>>ATTWS no longer exists.
>
>She has the same contract, Cingular is the "Provider" in it.

She has the current contract, whatever that is, which you have yet to
establish or document.

>>She may well have overlooked notification. Does she read all of every bill
>>carefully? ;-)
>
>We both read our bills carefully. ...

Please forgive me for being skeptical.

>>The "4 out of 5 calls [that] drop *before* connection?" [emphasis added]
>>Really? ;-)
>
>Yes, they're denoted with "D" for the call characteristics. ...

Again, please forgive me for being skeptical -- I've seen no evidence of calls
that haven't even been connected on billing invoices (as you claimed). For
that matter drop before disconnection is an oxymoron -- only connected calls
can actually be "dropped." If there is no connection, then it's a failed call
attempt, which can happen for a number of reasons (e.g., network busy, no
service).

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:46:26 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:07:27
>Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Big deal. I'm full time employed.
>>
>>You have time to spend several hours on the phone with Cingular
>>everytime there's a problem?
>
>Nope, and I don't -- since the start of this year I've been able to resolve
>all of my issues in a fraction of an hour.

I fax them copies of a my agreement that says:
"National Roaming: $0.00 (Included with package)"
and they still can't get it fixed after 8-9 calls that were all over 2
hours each..

Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on
her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours..

Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas.

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:37:55 GMT, John Navas wrote:
> Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>She's actually bound by the ATTWS contract provisions, not the
>>Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in
>>a class-action lawsuit.
>
>She's actually bound by her current contract, which is with Cingular now that
>ATTWS no longer exists.

Yes, it is the same ATTWS contract, but the provider is Cingular. The
provisions of the contract are the same as what she entered into.

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:27:17
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:46:26 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>>In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:07:27
>>Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>Big deal. I'm full time employed.
>>>
>>>You have time to spend several hours on the phone with Cingular
>>>everytime there's a problem?
>>
>>Nope, and I don't -- since the start of this year I've been able to resolve
>>all of my issues in a fraction of an hour.
>
>I fax them copies of a my agreement that says:
>"National Roaming: $0.00 (Included with package)"
>and they still can't get it fixed after 8-9 calls that were all over 2
>hours each..
>
>Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on
>her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours..
>
>Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas.

Probably just a difference in style and approach; e.g., unlike you, I'm not
regularly dropping the term "class-action lawsuit" (7 posts by my count).

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:28:25
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:37:55 GMT, John Navas wrote:
>> Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>She's actually bound by the ATTWS contract provisions, not the
>>>Cingular contract. Otherwise, she would not be able to participant in
>>>a class-action lawsuit.
>>
>>She's actually bound by her current contract, which is with Cingular now that
>>ATTWS no longer exists.
>
>Yes, it is the same ATTWS contract,

It's the current contract, whatever that is.

>but the provider is Cingular.

The other party to the contract is Cingular.

>The
>provisions of the contract are the same as what she entered into.

Not necessarily, no matter how many times you may say it.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:50:55 GMT, John Navas wrote:
> Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>She has the same contract, Cingular is the "Provider" in it.
>
>She has the current contract, whatever that is, which you have yet to
>establish or document.

She has the same contract, the "Provider" changed. The provisions of
the contract did not.

>>>She may well have overlooked notification. Does she read all of every bill
>>>carefully? ;-)
>>
>>We both read our bills carefully. ...
>
>Please forgive me for being skeptical.

Completely understandable, but we both have been very good about not
only paying attention to them, but retaining them.

She does it because of the potential class-action suit, I do it
because I'm anal.

>>>The "4 out of 5 calls [that] drop *before* connection?" [emphasis added]
>>>Really? ;-)
>>
>>Yes, they're denoted with "D" for the call characteristics. ...
>
>Again, please forgive me for being skeptical -- I've seen no evidence of calls
>that haven't even been connected on billing invoices (as you claimed). For
>that matter drop before disconnection is an oxymoron -- only connected calls
>can actually be "dropped." If there is no connection, then it's a failed call
>attempt, which can happen for a number of reasons (e.g., network busy, no
>service).

LOL.. I see what you mean.. the call connects to the network, and even
rings on my end. But when I pick up, she can't hear me and I can't
hear her. Usually she gets a loud high-pitched noise and then it
drops.

In the worst month, she had over 100 dropped calls, each of which
charged for one minute. Cingular refunded her $0.45 as a "Dropped
Call Credit", but also charged her for 10 minutes that she went over
on her plan. Try to find some logic in that! She spent more than an
hour on the phone trying to get a credit for the 100-something calls
she had dropped. They said their policy was to no longer credit for
dropped calls (though there was a credit for $0.90 on the next bill).

The billing codes may be a carry-over thing from ATTWS.. I've never
had an actual Cingular-originating account, so I don't know how their
billing looks to their customers. Our shows codes for
mobile-to-mobile calls, forwarded calls, dropped calls, etc.

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:37:13
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 00:50:55 GMT, John Navas wrote:

>>She has the current contract, whatever that is, which you have yet to
>>establish or document.
>
>She has the same contract, the "Provider" changed. The provisions of
>the contract did not.

That's a claim, not fact.

>Completely understandable, but we both have been very good about not
>only paying attention to them, but retaining them.
>
>She does it because of the potential class-action suit, I do it
>because I'm anal.

Yet you don't have the contract.

>>Again, please forgive me for being skeptical -- I've seen no evidence of calls
>>that haven't even been connected on billing invoices (as you claimed). For
>>that matter drop before disconnection is an oxymoron -- only connected calls
>>can actually be "dropped." If there is no connection, then it's a failed call
>>attempt, which can happen for a number of reasons (e.g., network busy, no
>>service).
>
>LOL.. I see what you mean.. the call connects to the network, and even
>rings on my end. But when I pick up, she can't hear me and I can't
>hear her. Usually she gets a loud high-pitched noise and then it
>drops.

That's either a handset or tower fault. Easy to figure out which.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:27:17
-0400, Mangus Pyke <[email protected]> wrote:

>Jen can't get them to credit her for the dropped calls reflected on
>her billing invoice after two calls, both of which were over 2 hours..
>
>Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas.

Perhaps it's just a different approach. This morning, for example, I got a
billing error corrected in a call of only about 5 minutes, with full credit
for the past six months. I was polite ( i.e., not threatening a "class action
lawsuit" and the Customer Service person was cheerful and helpful.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:27:18 GMT, John Navas wrote:
> Mangus Pyke wrote:
>>Apparently Cingular caters to John Navas.
>
>Perhaps it's just a different approach. This morning, for example, I got a
>billing error corrected in a call of only about 5 minutes, with full credit
>for the past six months. I was polite ( i.e., not threatening a "class action
>lawsuit" and the Customer Service person was cheerful and helpful.

I'm not buying this.

It's not like either of us call and are rude or discuss potential
legal action. We're actually desparately nice in hopes of one last
problem with the accounts.

We'd be happy for only 5 minutes of hold time, much less a call time
of such.

You're just not able to convince me that Cingular *ever* handles
something in this short amount of time.. unless they take longer with
ATTWS account (i.e. the account setup looks odd to them or something).

MP-
--
"Learning is a behavior that results from consequences."
B.F. Skinner