FAQ: How does GAIT work?

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.attws - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:02:26 -0700, "[ a
m z ]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"John Navas" wrote:
>> "[ a m z ]" wrote:
>>
>> >But for those of us in semi-rural areas, having the TDMA as a backup is
>> >critical.
>>
>> You'll have to learn to live without it, or switch carriers.
>
>Company apologist, are we?

No, just a realist. Rude by nature, are you?

>They can hold me to a 2-year contract even if it
>stops meeting my needs,

Not if the service changes significantly.

>but I can't hold them to the other side of the deal?

No, read the contract.

>Maybe they should have planned ahead and stopped selling new service and/or
>extending contracts.

Maybe you should be more realistic.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

---

› See More: FAQ: How does GAIT work?

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Sat, 13 Aug 2005
22:51:59 GMT, Jerome Zelinske <[email protected]> wrote:

> Since it is my understanding that the manufacturers are not or soon
>will not be making any more replacement tdma parts,

Of course they will, because there's money to be made and customers to keep.

>and they are not
>making any tdma phones,

Of course they won't (new phones that is), because of insufficient demand.

>then no body would want to buy old, used tdma
>network equipment.

They might well, for parts and spares if nothing else.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

"John Navas" wrote:
> [a m z ]" wrote:
>
> >Following the old "keep calling ATTWS CS until you get the right answer"
> >system, I called the number again. The woman said the following:
> >
> >1.) It only impacts Cingular Blue (former ATTWS) customers.
> >
> >2.) It affects more than WA State, but she wouldn't go into more detail.
>
> Thus far it only seems to be you.

And the other people who have apparently received letters and made calls to
Cingular's "Blue / migration" customer service. Again, if you doubt me,
call 800-543-9611.

> >3.) They're taking down GAIT phones first because their new billing
system
> >can't handle the ATTWS implementation of GAIT. ATTWS set it up as a
> >"Multi-Band" PLAN while Cingular apparently made GAIT a "feature."
>
> That is, of course, nonsense.

John, you may know a lot about Cingular, but you clearly haven't been an
ATTWS customer -- or at least not an ATTWS GAIT customer. First of all, to
access a Cingular Blue (formerly ATTWS) bill online, you have to go to a
special website. Check it out. It is right on the Cingular homepage. It
is a DIFFERENT BILLING SYSTEM. Second, YOU said "What "Multi-Band
accounts?" If you knew anything about ATTWS' GAIT implementation, you'd
know that they required special accounts. Again, if you doubt me, look it
up. Just Google "AT&T" and "Multi-Band" in the same search. As for
Cingular's implementation, that comment was based on earlier posters in this
thread.


> >7.) It is highly likely that people with existing ATTWS contracts will be
> >screwed out of any bonus minutes or features they have. In other words,
you
> >can't break your contract, but Cingular can do so at will.
>
> Read your ATTWS contract. The one you agreed to. What does it say?

The only printed contract I've had was the original one years back.

> I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but my understanding is
that
> Cingular is obligated to make you whole for the duration of your contract.
In
> other words, no significant degradation of service, no significant loss of
> plan benefits, no need to pay more. Otherwise you would be entitled to
> compensation for damages, including the pro rata cost of locked ATTWS
> equipment. Otherwise, you may wish to file complaints with the FCC, BBB,
> and/or state Attorney General.

Yes, I'm aware of this. Specific performance may be difficult, but I'm sure
something can be worked out.

> That's *if* you are reporting this correctly,
> which we thus far have no way of knowing.

Think what you like.

<snip>
> Thus this
> is still mostly speculation and rumor.

I would like to add my speculation:

Verizon and Cingular are both competing on coverage "Can you here me now ?"
and "Best allover network". To make this possible Verizon depends on amps
and Cingular depends on amps and tdma. Is Cingular replacing TDMA with GSM ?
Yes. My guess Cingular will drop TDMA in large cities as demand for spectrum
requires. But otherwise TDMA will be around for years. The reports of less
TDMA coverage are a result of reducing overlap between blue and orange.

Sales people must be paid for every new customer or every blue to orange
conversion, this may color the info they supply to customers. GAIT phones
were a temporary aid to conversion, and for a few a means to better
coverage. Just like amps only phones they are marked for replacment. Non GPS
phones with Verizon and Nextel are on the way out as well.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.attws - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:35:03 -0700, "[
a m z ]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"John Navas" wrote:
>> [a m z ]" wrote:
>>
>> >Following the old "keep calling ATTWS CS until you get the right answer"
>> >system, I called the number again. The woman said the following:
>> >
>> >1.) It only impacts Cingular Blue (former ATTWS) customers.
>> >
>> >2.) It affects more than WA State, but she wouldn't go into more detail.
>>
>> Thus far it only seems to be you.
>
>And the other people who have apparently received letters and made calls to
>Cingular's "Blue / migration" customer service.

Apparently? What other people? No other reports have appeared here, and a
search of news stories on Cingular turned up nothing.

>Again, if you doubt me,
>call [customer service].

I'm not in your area. Regardless, customer service reps aren't a good source
of accurate inside information, as you noted yourself, so it would be a
largely futile exercise.

>> >3.) They're taking down GAIT phones first because their new billing system
>> >can't handle the ATTWS implementation of GAIT. ATTWS set it up as a
>> >"Multi-Band" PLAN while Cingular apparently made GAIT a "feature."
>>
>> That is, of course, nonsense.
>
>John, you may know a lot about Cingular, but you clearly haven't been an
>ATTWS customer -- or at least not an ATTWS GAIT customer.

While I haven't been a GAIT customer, I have been an ATTWS customer, not that
it really matters.

>First of all, to
>access a Cingular Blue (formerly ATTWS) bill online, you have to go to a
>special website. Check it out. It is right on the Cingular homepage. It
>is a DIFFERENT BILLING SYSTEM.

Indeed.

>Second, YOU said "What "Multi-Band
>accounts?" If you knew anything about ATTWS' GAIT implementation, you'd
>know that they required special accounts. Again, if you doubt me, look it
>up. Just Google "AT&T" and "Multi-Band" in the same search.

I asked about that because you were posting to the Cingular newsgroup, and
thus I assumed you were a Cingular GAIT customer, rather than an ATTWS GAIT
customer.

>As for
>Cingular's implementation, that comment was based on earlier posters in this
>thread.

My "nonsense" was about the billing system being the reason for your GAIT
being eliminated. This is almost certainly a business issue and/or network
issue, not a billing system issue. GAIT takes special network support, which
complicates Cingular's efforts to integrate its two GSM networks.

>> Read your ATTWS contract. The one you agreed to. What does it say?
>
>The only printed contract I've had was the original one years back.

You nonetheless still have a contract, printed or not. Same question.

>> I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but my understanding is that
>> Cingular is obligated to make you whole for the duration of your contract. In
>> other words, no significant degradation of service, no significant loss of
>> plan benefits, no need to pay more. Otherwise you would be entitled to
>> compensation for damages, including the pro rata cost of locked ATTWS
>> equipment. Otherwise, you may wish to file complaints with the FCC, BBB,
>> and/or state Attorney General.
>
>Yes, I'm aware of this. Specific performance may be difficult, but I'm sure
>something can be worked out.

While GAIT is almost certainly a lost cause, your plan benefits and equipment
are not.

>> That's *if* you are reporting this correctly,
>> which we thus far have no way of knowing.
>
>Think what you like.

Provide the actual letter if you want to be taken more seriously. That's up
to you, not me.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

"Stanley Reynolds" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <snip>
>
> I would like to add my speculation:
>
> Verizon and Cingular are both competing on coverage "Can you here me now
?"
> and "Best allover network". To make this possible Verizon depends on amps
> and Cingular depends on amps and tdma. Is Cingular replacing TDMA with GSM
?
> Yes. My guess Cingular will drop TDMA in large cities as demand for
spectrum
> requires. But otherwise TDMA will be around for years. The reports of less
> TDMA coverage are a result of reducing overlap between blue and orange.
>
> Sales people must be paid for every new customer or every blue to orange
> conversion, this may color the info they supply to customers. GAIT phones
> were a temporary aid to conversion, and for a few a means to better
> coverage. Just like amps only phones they are marked for replacment. Non
GPS
> phones with Verizon and Nextel are on the way out as well.

I talked to another office at "Cingular Blue" and the "escalated" rep
proposed one other theory... That since they ARE dumping AMPS at the end of
the year and GAIT phones are at least supposed to be on AMPS, they're taking
this opportunity to just dump all GAIT people -- even if your phone is
GAIT-ish, like the Siemens S46.

"John Navas" wrote
> "[ a m z ]" wrote:
> >>
> >And the other people who have apparently received letters and made
> > calls to Cingular's "Blue / migration" customer service.
>
> Apparently? What other people? No other reports have appeared here,
> and a search of news stories on Cingular turned up nothing.

One, Usenet traffic isn't what it used to be. You're also looking at a
subset of a subset of a subset of a group of people. Most people don't have
GAIT -- let alone unmigrated ATTWS GAIT. Of those people, only so many even
read Usenet. Of those people, maybe a good number just decided they'd
rather switch than fight.

> >Again, if you doubt me, call [customer service].
>
> customer service reps aren't a good source of accurate inside information

My point was simply to confirm that others had called.

> My "nonsense" was about the billing system being the reason for your GAIT
> being eliminated. This is almost certainly a business issue and/or
network
> issue, not a billing system issue. GAIT takes special network support,
which
> complicates Cingular's efforts to integrate its two GSM networks.

Since Cingular IS in the process of merging OCS(?) into their system, it
makes sense that it could be ONE of the reasons. I also posted an
"escalations" rep's thought that it could have to do with dumping AMPS at
the end of the year.

> While GAIT is almost certainly a lost cause, your plan benefits
> and equipment are not.

Apparently, what I'm left with so far is:

1a.) Keep the Siemens S46 (and the $$ worth of accessories), but get knocked
down to only GSM -- and ATTWS-priority GSM to boot.

or

1b.) Buy a new Cingular Orange GSM phone with a new SIM.

2.) Unless someone knows something different, Cingular doesn't have a way of
adding promo minutes or cutting the cost of a package.

At this point, the loss of GAIT is a moot point. The phone is a toss-up
since I really like the wonderful Outlook sync of the S46, but would trade
for so-so sync if the reception was MUCH better. I've heard the Moto V551
doesn't syncy multi-number contacts from Outlook. True?

The plan minutes / features / price are what really have me steamed. John,
do you (or anyone else in this NG) know how to get Cingular to tweak their
existing plans??

<snip>
> I talked to another office at "Cingular Blue" and the "escalated" rep
> proposed one other theory... That since they ARE dumping AMPS at the end
of
> the year and GAIT phones are at least supposed to be on AMPS, they're
taking
> this opportunity to just dump all GAIT people -- even if your phone is
> GAIT-ish, like the Siemens S46.
>
>

While they may not activate amps phones they are not dumping amps.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/bro...eprovider.html

"While the Commission does not mandate a specific digital technology, the
Commission currently requires that all cellular carriers provide analog
service using Advanced Mobile Phone Service (AMPS) specifications.
Accordingly, subscribers with handsets capable of operating in analog mode
will generally be able to access service in most markets in the country. We
note, however, that the analog requirement is scheduled to sunset in 2008. "

>I talked to another office at "Cingular Blue" and the "escalated" rep
>proposed one other theory... That since they ARE dumping AMPS at the end of
>the year and GAIT phones are at least supposed to be on AMPS, they're taking
>this opportunity to just dump all GAIT people -- even if your phone is
>GAIT-ish, like the Siemens S46.
>
>

Again, due to FCC requirements, this sounds kind of fishy.

TH

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.attws - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:55:49 -0700, "[
a m z ]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I talked to another office at "Cingular Blue" and the "escalated" rep
>proposed one other theory... That since they ARE dumping AMPS at the end of
>the year and GAIT phones are at least supposed to be on AMPS, they're taking
>this opportunity to just dump all GAIT people -- even if your phone is
>GAIT-ish, like the Siemens S46.

"Sunset" of the FCC AMPS mandate does not occur until 2008, so Cingular can't
be dumping it at the end of this year; i.e., this is yet more unfounded rumor
and speculation that just adds to confusion, not understanding.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

>While they may not activate amps phones they are not dumping amps.
>
>http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/bro...eprovider.html
>
>"While the Commission does not mandate a specific digital technology, the
>Commission currently requires that all cellular carriers provide analog
>service using Advanced Mobile Phone Service (AMPS) specifications.
>Accordingly, subscribers with handsets capable of operating in analog mode
>will generally be able to access service in most markets in the country. We
>note, however, that the analog requirement is scheduled to sunset in 2008. "
>
>

Speaking of the sunset date, I have heard conflicting reports of whether
it's in 2007 or 2008. I had always thought 2008, but there are several
references to the sunset time in 2007.

Any ideas?

TH

"John Navas" wrote:
> "[ a m z ]" wrote:
> >I talked to another office at "Cingular Blue" and the "escalated" rep
> >proposed one other theory... That since they ARE dumping AMPS at the end
of
> >the year and GAIT phones are at least supposed to be on AMPS, they're
taking
> >this opportunity to just dump all GAIT people -- even if your phone is
> >GAIT-ish, like the Siemens S46.
>
> "Sunset" of the FCC AMPS mandate does not occur until 2008, so Cingular
can't
> be dumping it at the end of this year; i.e., this is yet more unfounded
rumor
> and speculation that just adds to confusion, not understanding.

That is within a few words of VERBATIM what the "escalation" rep said. She
said that some sort of a 10-year requirement expires at the end of this year
and that they were taking down AMPS. She seemed to know quite a bit and
talked about the hassles with "call boxes" being on AMPS, etc., etc.

This is stupid. It seems to me that the CEO of Cingular could say something
and it would STILL be wrong.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.attws - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:08:21 -0700, "[
a m z ]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"John Navas" wrote
>> "[ a m z ]" wrote:
>> >>
>> >And the other people who have apparently received letters and made
>> > calls to Cingular's "Blue / migration" customer service.
>>
>> Apparently? What other people? No other reports have appeared here,
>> and a search of news stories on Cingular turned up nothing.
>
>One, Usenet traffic isn't what it used to be. You're also looking at a
>subset of a subset of a subset of a group of people. Most people don't have
>GAIT -- let alone unmigrated ATTWS GAIT. Of those people, only so many even
>read Usenet. Of those people, maybe a good number just decided they'd
>rather switch than fight.

Perhaps, but that doesn't explain the lack of news stories.

>> >Again, if you doubt me, call [customer service].
>>
>> customer service reps aren't a good source of accurate inside information
>
>My point was simply to confirm that others had called.

I wouldn't be able to find that out.

>> My "nonsense" was about the billing system being the reason for your GAIT
>> being eliminated. This is almost certainly a business issue and/or network
>> issue, not a billing system issue. GAIT takes special network support, which
>> complicates Cingular's efforts to integrate its two GSM networks.
>
>Since Cingular IS in the process of merging OCS(?) into their system, it
>makes sense that it could be ONE of the reasons.

I disagree.

>I also posted an
>"escalations" rep's thought that it could have to do with dumping AMPS at
>the end of the year.

That's bogus on its face (as I explained in my response).

>> While GAIT is almost certainly a lost cause, your plan benefits
>> and equipment are not.
>
>Apparently, what I'm left with so far is:
>
>1a.) Keep the Siemens S46 (and the $$ worth of accessories), but get knocked
>down to only GSM -- and ATTWS-priority GSM to boot.

With free roaming on orange.

>or
>
>1b.) Buy a new Cingular Orange GSM phone with a new SIM.

Wouldn't make sense unless you're pretty sure that orange GSM coverage is
better than blue GSM coverage in places you care about -- ENS doesn't change
GSM network selection, only the ability to be manually "homed" on either blue
or orange.

>2.) Unless someone knows something different, Cingular doesn't have a way of
>adding promo minutes or cutting the cost of a package.

Of course it does. All plans and features are "in the system," whether they
are normally available or not -- otherwise, Cingular wouldn't be able to
generate bills! So making them available or not to reps or not is a
*business* decision, not a technical one. Likewise credits and adjustments.

The most common credit these days is a bucket of rollover minutes. If you're
now getting M anytime minutes for D dollars, and the Cingular plan at D
dollars only has (say) .75 x M anytime minutes, then if you have 10 months to
go on your contract, you can be compensated by a bucket of 10 x .25 x M
anytime minutes. Credits are also possible.

>At this point, the loss of GAIT is a moot point. The phone is a toss-up
>since I really like the wonderful Outlook sync of the S46, but would trade
>for so-so sync if the reception was MUCH better. I've heard the Moto V551
>doesn't syncy multi-number contacts from Outlook. True?
>
>The plan minutes / features / price are what really have me steamed. John,
>do you (or anyone else in this NG) know how to get Cingular to tweak their
>existing plans??

I suggest you ask for "escalation" or (better yet) "retention," and ask for
the kind of thing I outlined above.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.attws - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:35:36 -0700, "[
a m z ]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"John Navas" wrote:
>> "[ a m z ]" wrote:
>> >I talked to another office at "Cingular Blue" and the "escalated" rep
>> >proposed one other theory... That since they ARE dumping AMPS at the end of
>> >the year and GAIT phones are at least supposed to be on AMPS, they're taking
>> >this opportunity to just dump all GAIT people -- even if your phone is
>> >GAIT-ish, like the Siemens S46.
>>
>> "Sunset" of the FCC AMPS mandate does not occur until 2008, so Cingular can't
>> be dumping it at the end of this year; i.e., this is yet more unfounded rumor
>> and speculation that just adds to confusion, not understanding.
>
>That is within a few words of VERBATIM what the "escalation" rep said. She
>said that some sort of a 10-year requirement expires at the end of this year
>and that they were taking down AMPS. She seemed to know quite a bit and
>talked about the hassles with "call boxes" being on AMPS, etc., etc.
>
>This is stupid.

Outside of their job training and responsibilities is what it actually is.
They really shouldn't say anything at all, but they know that annoys
customers, and they are human, so they speculate. If you don't want bad
information, then don't ask them for unofficial information.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

"Tropical Haven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:5Q6Me.4724$TR.2011@lakeread08...
>
> >While they may not activate amps phones they are not dumping amps.
> >
>
>http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/bro...ingserviceprov
ider.html
> >
> >"While the Commission does not mandate a specific digital technology, the
> >Commission currently requires that all cellular carriers provide analog
> >service using Advanced Mobile Phone Service (AMPS) specifications.
> >Accordingly, subscribers with handsets capable of operating in analog
mode
> >will generally be able to access service in most markets in the country.
We
> >note, however, that the analog requirement is scheduled to sunset in
2008. "
> >
> >
>
> Speaking of the sunset date, I have heard conflicting reports of whether
> it's in 2007 or 2008. I had always thought 2008, but there are several
> references to the sunset time in 2007.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> TH

I'am just quoting the FCC web site they could extend the amps mandate past
2008. They may have extended this before which would explain the confusion.
Once the mandate is lifted I would expect some but not all carriers to drop
amps unless they can make money from it. It is the only common cellular mode
but it's waste of spectrum is it's doom.