Analog signals & Cingular cell towers

"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9X1Qe.1899$P34.1152@okepread07...
>..snip..
> That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We
> have been afraid their reluctance might be based on the possibility they
> might have had the chance to save a life and yet took no action. But
> allowing their AMPS equipment to deteriorate might be hampering their own
> internal efforts as well. Now I wonder if their reluctance might be based
> on
> allowing their equipment to deteriorate below FCC minimums. Upon
> conclusion,
> we will be filling a formal written with the FCC, and it might be a good
> time to pose that suspicion as well.

I put your questions to a guy that has been awarded five patents covering
>digital< cellular systems. Unfortunately, he doesn't know a lot about
analog systems. But here is additional data points that might be of help:

When a cell phone is turned on, a 'heartbeat' is broadcast to identify the
handset/owner. That information is transmitted over the cellular network
along with the 'tower' data to a database that verifies you are a customer
in good standing.

In the >digital world<, the tower and antenna (horn) ID is transmitted with
other data in a packet. If you knew the actual antenna used at login, you
can estimate a pie slice area from the antenna, limited by the power of the
broadcast of the handset and the terrain.

At worse, in theory, if the antenna were only one of three, you would have a
pie slice ~120 degrees wide and ~five miles radius. That's a big piece of
territory, but smaller than all of NE Oklahoma.

---

› See More: Analog signals & Cingular cell towers

I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each time? Also, who are you speaking with -- customer service? or have you gotten beyond them?

Who you talk to is half the battle. I recommend speaking with 2-3 people continuously (any more = chaos, any less = possibility of the ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a top tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you.

Tom Frey wrote:
> "Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Tom Frey wrote:
>>
>>>The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is
>>>Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe
>
> it.
>
>>At that late stage (29 days) there's another factor to consider. Is it
>>believed she might have a cell phone charger with her? I hate to put a
>>damper on the possibilities here, but given that it's an AMPS phone, I
>>fear the battery isn't going to last long and without recharging, and
>>without access to a charger (which I doubt is readily available for such
>>an old phone) it could be long dead by now, and thus not transmitting
>>anything.
>>
>>Not even the most efficient digital cell phones will last 29 days on
>>standby without spending some time plugged into a wall or car socket.
>
>
> Prior to the next day the phone had not logged in since 12/29/04, she never
> use it. But she did carry a car charger and had be instructed that is was
> required for use. We suspect she would have had to plug it in to attempt a
> call, and trigger a login at the tower. Cingular has acknowledged the login
> at 2:40 pm the next day, but hasn't indicated that a number was dialed. We
> wonder if she dialed a number, and didn't remember to press the send key.
> They had been notified just three hour or so before that she was missing,
> and the police had taken a report and was fully involved. But they did not
> report the incident until the second phone request from my brother, some 5
> days later.
>
>
>>
>>>Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler
>>>effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do.
>>
>>They can in theory. But, what MAY be causing the problem is that AMPS
>>doesn't have any sort of soft-handoff capability, in other words, it has
>>no ability for a phone to be connected with two or more cell sites to
>>ease the handoff when an active handset moves during a call. This is
>>why when a call was handed off in analog, both parties KNEW and could
>>tell it was happening.
>>
>>The AMPS system was very advanced for its day, but quite rudimentary by
>>current technological standards in that generally one and only one cell
>>site could be formally connected to a handset at once. This greatly
>>limits the possibilities of triangulation.
>>
>>It also depends largely on how Cingular has their AMPS gear configured.
>> I have a feeling they've let the condition of the gear deterioriate
>>quite a bit to the point where it offers only extrmemely basic features
>>and service levels to stay "legal" in the eyes of the FCC. As a result,
>>they might have removed a lot of the gear that normally would have been
>>used for this sort of tracking. They could also be using very few
>>frequencies for AMPS (bandwidth IS limited on Cingular) and configuring
>>multiple analog suites to operate in a "zone" fashion rather than by
>>individual cell site.
>>
>>
>>>I'm hoping
>>>someone here with actual experience can answer the question for certain.
>
> I
>
>>>know of no other place to shop for experts for a second opinion.
>>
>>Unfortuantely, I don't think we can give you a definitive answer
>>without knowing some inside information on what Cingular has done with
>>their AMPS network, how it's configured, and what features and
>>capabilities it still has as opposed to what parts have been left to rot
>>or been cannibalized for TDMA or GSM.
>>
>
>
> That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We
> have been afraid their reluctance might be based on the possibility they
> might have had the chance to save a life and yet took no action. But
> allowing their AMPS equipment to deteriorate might be hampering their own
> internal efforts as well. Now I wonder if their reluctance might be based on
> allowing their equipment to deteriorate below FCC minimums. Upon conclusion,
> we will be filling a formal written with the FCC, and it might be a good
> time to pose that suspicion as well.
>
> Thanks so much for taking time to post your ideas.
>
>


On a cell phone, a number isn't "dialed" until the Send/Call button is
pressed. You can punch in all the digits you want, but until the magic
button is pressed, they're just digits held in the phone's memory. When
the magic moment arrives, the digits are sent all at once.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

sjwilson wrote:
> I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time
> you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each
> time? Also, who are you speaking with -- customer service? or have
> you gotten beyond them?
>
> Who you talk to is half the battle. I recommend speaking with 2-3
> people continuously (any more = chaos, any less = possibility of the
> ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a top
> tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you.
>
>


Typically, a police department assigns an chief investigator to the
case, and that's the person that runs the show. That's the same person
he should be talking to.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Tom Frey wrote:
> "Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Tom Frey wrote:
>>
>>>My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But
>
> Cingular
>
>>>is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the
>
> login. I
>
>>>think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction
>
> of
>
>>>the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
>>
>>At the very least, they should be able to find out which cell the phone
>>logged into. Chances are they won't give YOU that information, but the
>>they will give it to police, if compelled to do so.
>>
>
> By which cell, do you mean which tower?
> The information has been requested by the police department, and is now the
> subject of a subponia from the state's attorney generals office. But the
> subponia was issued on the 12th, and as of the 26th we were not aware it had
> been answered yet.


Ordinarily, when a telecom provider is notified of a warrant (yes, there
is an audit trail), that company has 24 hours to acknowledge receipt of
the warrant. This acknowledgement does not constitute compliance - it
merely certifies receipt. However, once that acknowledgement occurs,
that company is encumbered for the duration of it's terms, or has
another 24 hours to file a "no cause" order stipulating why they
can't/shouldn't comply. The occurance of the latter option is extremely
rare. Any company encumbered under a warrant is also bound to discuss
it's very existence *only* with the agency that requested the warrant,
and *only* the details related to maintain their compliance. Trust me,
there are no exceptions.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

"sjwilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time
> you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each
> time? Also, who are you speaking with -- customer service? or have
> you gotten beyond them?
>
> Who you talk to is half the battle. I recommend speaking with 2-3
> people continuously (any more = chaos, any less = possibility of the
> ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a top
> tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you.
>
>
> --
> sjwilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Cell Phone Forums: http://cellphoneforums.net
> View this thread: http://cellphoneforums.net/t186414.html
>

Actually we have just been taking what ever we can get. We just have to coax
what ever we can until they begin insisting on a subponia, and try our luck
with someone else later. I think the detective found out it was a Tulsa
tower through a friend of a friend. Last week someone my brother contacted
indicated it was a Tulsa tower as well, but they were not sure which one.
When a charge for a single phone call showed up on the bill last Thursday,
my brother was finally able to get someone to tell him that is was my home
phone number that was called, but two hours after her phone logged in. But
it seems each contact ends with the insistance for a subponia.

The state's attorney generals office issued a subponia on the 12th, but a
Cingular rep indicated to them three days later (the 15th) during a follow
up call that the subponia had been lost. So the AGs office faxed it to them
three times on the 15th. No news since, but we are hoping for next week.

Seems ironic to us that Cingular's insistance on a subponia has been based
on privacy issues, yet the only call my step mother has made on the phone in
the past 8 years, was an attempt to contact me the day after she
disappeared. And the phone belongs to my brother, the person making all the
inquires.
My brothers first call was to alert them to the situation the very next day,
just 3 hours before the phone logged in.

"Thurman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:9X1Qe.1899$P34.1152@okepread07...
> >..snip..
> > That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We
> > have been afraid their reluctance might be based on the possibility they
> > might have had the chance to save a life and yet took no action. But
> > allowing their AMPS equipment to deteriorate might be hampering their
own
> > internal efforts as well. Now I wonder if their reluctance might be
based
> > on
> > allowing their equipment to deteriorate below FCC minimums. Upon
> > conclusion,
> > we will be filling a formal written with the FCC, and it might be a good
> > time to pose that suspicion as well.
>
> I put your questions to a guy that has been awarded five patents covering
> >digital< cellular systems. Unfortunately, he doesn't know a lot about
> analog systems. But here is additional data points that might be of help:
>
> When a cell phone is turned on, a 'heartbeat' is broadcast to identify the
> handset/owner. That information is transmitted over the cellular network
> along with the 'tower' data to a database that verifies you are a customer
> in good standing.
>
> In the >digital world<, the tower and antenna (horn) ID is transmitted
with
> other data in a packet. If you knew the actual antenna used at login, you
> can estimate a pie slice area from the antenna, limited by the power of
the
> broadcast of the handset and the terrain.
>
> At worse, in theory, if the antenna were only one of three, you would have
a
> pie slice ~120 degrees wide and ~five miles radius. That's a big piece of
> territory, but smaller than all of NE Oklahoma.
>
>
You're absolutly right. We have so many towers in the Tulsa area, just
knowing which one did take the login and which other towers would be
applicable, would make all the difference to us right now. We have literally
dozens of volunteers from her 2 church congregations, and family and friends
wanting to help, and have had since day 1. But just knowing it was a Tulsa
tower has proven little help besides limiting the search to a 20 or 25 mile
radius, and we still can't find her. We have so many trees and foilage here,
that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway, and
that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments.

Thanks for your input.

"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> sjwilson wrote:
> > I assume that you are speaking with the same person or persons each time
> > you call? Or is it that you are speaking to a different person each
> > time? Also, who are you speaking with -- customer service? or have
> > you gotten beyond them?
> >
> > Who you talk to is half the battle. I recommend speaking with 2-3
> > people continuously (any more = chaos, any less = possibility of the
> > ball dropping). Also, push and push and push until you get to a top
> > tier, or someone who has the knowledge to assist you.
> >
> >
>
>
> Typically, a police department assigns an chief investigator to the
> case, and that's the person that runs the show. That's the same person
> he should be talking to.
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

The detective is certainly in the loop, but having no more luck with
Cingular than we have, he has encouraged us to keep persuing them as well.
He is not at all the narrow minded or controlling type and seems happy to
recieve all the help he can get. But is being hampered by the same subponia
nonsense as everyone else.

"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Frey wrote:
> > "Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Tom Frey wrote:
> >>
> >>>My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But
> >
> > Cingular
> >
> >>>is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the
> >
> > login. I
> >
> >>>think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate
direction
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
> >>
> >>At the very least, they should be able to find out which cell the phone
> >>logged into. Chances are they won't give YOU that information, but the
> >>they will give it to police, if compelled to do so.
> >>
> >
> > By which cell, do you mean which tower?
> > The information has been requested by the police department, and is now
the
> > subject of a subponia from the state's attorney generals office. But the
> > subponia was issued on the 12th, and as of the 26th we were not aware it
had
> > been answered yet.
>
>
> Ordinarily, when a telecom provider is notified of a warrant (yes, there
> is an audit trail), that company has 24 hours to acknowledge receipt of
> the warrant. This acknowledgement does not constitute compliance - it
> merely certifies receipt. However, once that acknowledgement occurs,
> that company is encumbered for the duration of it's terms, or has
> another 24 hours to file a "no cause" order stipulating why they
> can't/shouldn't comply. The occurance of the latter option is extremely
> rare. Any company encumbered under a warrant is also bound to discuss
> it's very existence *only* with the agency that requested the warrant,
> and *only* the details related to maintain their compliance. Trust me,
> there are no exceptions.
>
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Actually on a follow up call from the state's attorney general's office on
the 15th, they admitted having lost it (the subponia). It was faxed again
the same day. But as of late last week, or about the 25th or 26th, no one is
aware of their compliance. I talked to the Tulsa detective who is in contact
with the attorney general's office on Friday the 26th, and he still hasn't
received anything. My brother had spoke with a contact in the SGA office
earlier in the week as well.

>"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:9%oQe.1972$P34.49@okepread07...
>.....
> But just knowing it was a Tulsa
> tower has proven little help besides limiting the search to a 20 or 25
> mile
> radius, and we still can't find her. We have so many trees and foilage
> here,
> that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway, and
> that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments.

Only because efforts so far haven't been fruitful, I'd suggest one more
thing that is on the limit of my knowledge:

Assume there is a chance someone took or found her cell phone. That first
call or sign on could have been someone other than your mother.

I just check my unused ATT analog cell phone to verify it has an ESN:
electronic serial number. My Sprint devices all use the ESN as an
identifier, but Cingular, on digital handsets, use the SIM card for
identification. Someone else needs to verify, but I think the handset
somehow broadcasts the ESN with the SIM ID to set behavior or performance.

Much stolen or found equipment finds it's way to eBay. You would not likely
be able to search on the ESN on eBay, but if the device has been sold and
put in to service, there is remote chance Cingular would have the ESN and
owners name.

Sorry I can't be of more assistance.

"Thurman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:9%oQe.1972$P34.49@okepread07...
> >.....
> > But just knowing it was a Tulsa
> > tower has proven little help besides limiting the search to a 20 or 25
> > mile
> > radius, and we still can't find her. We have so many trees and foilage
> > here,
> > that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway,
and
> > that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments.
>
> Only because efforts so far haven't been fruitful, I'd suggest one more
> thing that is on the limit of my knowledge:
>
> Assume there is a chance someone took or found her cell phone. That first
> call or sign on could have been someone other than your mother.
>
> I just check my unused ATT analog cell phone to verify it has an ESN:
> electronic serial number. My Sprint devices all use the ESN as an
> identifier, but Cingular, on digital handsets, use the SIM card for
> identification. Someone else needs to verify, but I think the handset
> somehow broadcasts the ESN with the SIM ID to set behavior or performance.
>
> Much stolen or found equipment finds it's way to eBay. You would not
likely
> be able to search on the ESN on eBay, but if the device has been sold and
> put in to service, there is remote chance Cingular would have the ESN and
> owners name.
>
> Sorry I can't be of more assistance.
>
>

Thanks Thurman, that might be a good idea if we don't turn something up
soon. However, the phones latest statement was posted to the web late last
week. It covers the 30 day period beginning 2 days before she disappeared.
Although no calls were listed, it did show a charge for one call. The phone
was on a straight rate of 37 cents a minute I believe. When my brother
contacted Cingular about the charge with no calls listed, they admitted a
call to my home phone number was made at 4:55 pm the day after she
disappeared. Since the call was not answered, it was not shown on the bill,
but has now been confirmed. I was in an aircraft searching her nearby home
town at the time. Also my brother confirmed no phone numbers were programmed
into the phone, so it just about had to be her placing the call about 24
hours after she was last seen. No other calls or logins have been admitted
my Cingular as yet.

So it was my brothers phone, and had not logged in since 12/29/04, and the
only call and login made was the day after she disappeared, and was made
trying to contact me. But Cingular still insists they can't help for privacy
reasons, until they get the subpoena they accepted two weeks ago.

Tom,

Check out this Wired magazine article from 11 years ago, especially
page 2 about half way down the page.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.01/phreaks.html


"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Tl9Pe.1782$P34.77@okepread07...
> Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old
analog
> phone signal?
>
>

"Spammer Magnet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom,
>
> Check out this Wired magazine article from 11 years ago, especially
> page 2 about half way down the page.
>
> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.01/phreaks.html
>

Thanks for the reference Spammer, it's certainly a lot of food for thought.
It's a shame you can't find guys like that in the phone book.

Thurman wrote:

> Much stolen or found equipment finds it's way to eBay. You would not likely
> be able to search on the ESN on eBay, but if the device has been sold and
> put in to service, there is remote chance Cingular would have the ESN and
> owners name.


Well, Cigular no longer offers analog service plans, it's highly
unlikely that they will activate an AMPS phone. What remains of their
AMPS service is reerved mainly for stalwarts who have never upgraded
their phones, for OnStar, and for "last resort" roaming for people with
dual-mode phones.

--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <9%oQe.1972$P34.49@okepread07> on Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:19:08 -0500, "Tom
Frey" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You're absolutly right. We have so many towers in the Tulsa area, just
>knowing which one did take the login and which other towers would be
>applicable, would make all the difference to us right now. We have literally
>dozens of volunteers from her 2 church congregations, and family and friends
>wanting to help, and have had since day 1. But just knowing it was a Tulsa
>tower has proven little help besides limiting the search to a 20 or 25 mile
>radius, and we still can't find her. We have so many trees and foilage here,
>that a vehicle can be lost from sight just 20' or so off the roadway, and
>that doesn't speak for creeks and embankments.

You're making the assumption that the closest tower would have handled the
call, thus narrowing your search. That's not a valid assumption -- AMPS has
considerable range, and a phone might actually use a more distant tower,
depending on a several factors (e.g., terrain, tower capacity). Thus knowing
the exact tower probably won't give you much (if any) more information than
you have now.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>