Analog signals & Cingular cell towers

Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old analog
phone signal?

---

› See More: Analog signals & Cingular cell towers

No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose?

"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Tl9Pe.1782$P34.77@okepread07...
> Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old
> analog
> phone signal?
>
>

My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular
is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I
think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of
the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.

"Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:vI9Pe.39260$Ji4.16035@fed1read03...
> No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose?
>
> "Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Tl9Pe.1782$P34.77@okepread07...
> > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old
> > analog
> > phone signal?
> >
> >
>
>

Call the police and let them handle it (if she is really missing that
is).



On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:34:38 -0500, "Tom Frey" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular
>is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I
>think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of
>the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
>
>"Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:vI9Pe.39260$Ji4.16035@fed1read03...
>> No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose?
>>
>> "Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:Tl9Pe.1782$P34.77@okepread07...
>> > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old
>> > analog
>> > phone signal?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

I believe the only way they could figure out the direction of the signal
would be to have 2 or more towers that picked up the phone's ID. From
there, based on signal strength, they should be able to triangulate. Then
again, I might be assuming that the system is more sophisticated than it may
actually be. Get the police involved. They're undoubtedly more likely to
get telco cooperation.


"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote:
> My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But
Cingular
> is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login.
I
> think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction
of
> the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
>
> "Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose?
> >
> > "Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old
> > > analog phone signal?

The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is
Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe it.
Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler
effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do. I'm hoping
someone here with actual experience can answer the question for certain. I
know of no other place to shop for experts for a second opinion.

"Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:g7aPe.1786$P34.882@okepread07...
> My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But
Cingular
> is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login.
I
> think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction
of
> the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
>
> "Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:vI9Pe.39260$Ji4.16035@fed1read03...
> > No. Why would it want to? What is the purpose?
> >
> > "Tom Frey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:Tl9Pe.1782$P34.77@okepread07...
> > > Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old
> > > analog
> > > phone signal?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Tom Frey wrote:
> Can a Cingular cell tower record the approximate direction of an old analog
> phone signal?
>
>


Of course. Radio is radio.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Tom Frey wrote:
> My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular
> is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I
> think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of
> the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
>


Oh, okay... reading further... Any wireless service provider would be
reluctant to release such info to anyone, including law enforcement,
without a Title 3 warrant. OTOH, if the situation truly is a life and
death situation, the provider may choose to not wait on a warrant to be
issued to begin data collection, but releasing anything learned would
still require a warrant.

Suppose your step mother had simply decided to step out incognito and
finish her life privately refusing further contact with you or anyone
else she has known? Sans a warrant, the provider would be seriously
remiss to provide any viable information to you, and in fact, if my
supposition turned out to be accurate, would subject the provider to
actionable offenses of a civil and criminal nature for violating the
privacy rights of your step mother.

There is such a thing as a "welfare" warrant. It could be used by law
enforcement to contact your step mother on your behalf to determine her
state of mind and intent while keeping her location private. What I
don't know is whether a welfare warrant qualifies as a Title 3.

Luck in your endeavour.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Cingular was contacted by my brother, the owner of the phone and account,
about 11a.m. the next day. She turned on phone on just three hours later,
but no calls have been made to date. It was the first time the phone had
been turned on in 7 months, per Cingular. However Cingular never contacted
anyone, and would not admit the phone had been turned on for about 6 more
days, and two more phone calls from my brother.

My step mother would have never gone incognito. Her cherished pets were
abandoned. She was a 40 year founding member of her church yet contacted
neither her sisters or church friends. Her bank account has not been
touched, she kept little cash at home. She would not drive on expressways,
or after dark, and she has always asked to be driven in those instances.

In the past few days a subponia has been issued by the state's Attorney
Generals's Office, although it was my brother's phone, and of course he is
fully cooperating with the family and police.

I'm trying to determine what kind of information could have, or should have
been available the very next day, as well as the days following. In our
opinion, Cingular is clearly not cooperating with anyone, including the
police department, they contacted no one when the phone was turned on.
That's why I am soliciting here for expert opinions, hopefully from persons
familiar with these type of systems, to see what can be done now, or should
have been done the day the phone was turned on.



"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Frey wrote:
> > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But
Cingular
> > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the
login. I
> > think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction
of
> > the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
> >
>
>
> Oh, okay... reading further... Any wireless service provider would be
> reluctant to release such info to anyone, including law enforcement,
> without a Title 3 warrant. OTOH, if the situation truly is a life and
> death situation, the provider may choose to not wait on a warrant to be
> issued to begin data collection, but releasing anything learned would
> still require a warrant.
>
> Suppose your step mother had simply decided to step out incognito and
> finish her life privately refusing further contact with you or anyone
> else she has known? Sans a warrant, the provider would be seriously
> remiss to provide any viable information to you, and in fact, if my
> supposition turned out to be accurate, would subject the provider to
> actionable offenses of a civil and criminal nature for violating the
> privacy rights of your step mother.
>
> There is such a thing as a "welfare" warrant. It could be used by law
> enforcement to contact your step mother on your behalf to determine her
> state of mind and intent while keeping her location private. What I
> don't know is whether a welfare warrant qualifies as a Title 3.
>
> Luck in your endeavour.
>
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Tom Frey wrote:
> Cingular was contacted by my brother, the owner of the phone and account,
> about 11a.m. the next day. She turned on phone on just three hours later,
> but no calls have been made to date. It was the first time the phone had
> been turned on in 7 months, per Cingular. However Cingular never contacted
> anyone, and would not admit the phone had been turned on for about 6 more
> days, and two more phone calls from my brother.
>
> My step mother would have never gone incognito. Her cherished pets were
> abandoned. She was a 40 year founding member of her church yet contacted
> neither her sisters or church friends. Her bank account has not been
> touched, she kept little cash at home. She would not drive on expressways,
> or after dark, and she has always asked to be driven in those instances.
>
> In the past few days a subponia has been issued by the state's Attorney
> Generals's Office, although it was my brother's phone, and of course he is
> fully cooperating with the family and police.
>
> I'm trying to determine what kind of information could have, or should have
> been available the very next day, as well as the days following. In our
> opinion, Cingular is clearly not cooperating with anyone, including the
> police department, they contacted no one when the phone was turned on.
> That's why I am soliciting here for expert opinions, hopefully from persons
> familiar with these type of systems, to see what can be done now, or should
> have been done the day the phone was turned on.
>


Tom I'm trying to empathize with your situation as well as any stranger
can, and I'm certainly don't want to sound like I'm defending Cingular
in particular. However, Cingular, like any provider, has a office
somewhere (Atlanta?) that serves as a single point-of-contact for this
type of thing (Subpoena Compliance Dept). Ordinarily, privacy laws and
corporate policies that support them going to require a warrant to
release any info about a customer, so getting law enforcement officially
involved to at least this level should be priority one. Beyond that,
yes, rules and policies have been bent in the interest of brevity, but
the release of sensitive info will only occur under the highest scrutiny
possible. In the interest of spreading the wealth, any business that
obtains, records, uses, and retains personally identifiable detailed
information about a customer is held to the same level of
responsibility, ie. financial, medical, municipal, etc.

For your reference:
Title 1 = billing and usage records, ie. historical only
Title 2 = real-time digital data only (digits dialed) and Title 1 above
Title 3 = real-time & record analog data (voice) and Title 1 & 2 above

You'll notice there's no mention of location info, because there's no
current provision in any of the above criminal warrant requirements for
it. In these circumstances, the term "life or death" emergency are
paramount for action. Location info has always been provided (within
technological limits) for 911 calls, given the presumptive nature of
calling an emergency number. Yes, improvements have been made for
homing in on a handset's location, but only if the caller dials 911.
Outside of that event, anything more is a crap shoot, especially when
dealing with Homeland Security. Keywords = health and welfare

It may also serve to understand that Cingular will only be able to
respond with info gleaned from their own internal systems, other
providers would have to supply their own cards to the table
independently. Keyword = roaming.

I hope this has been helpful for you in your time of concern.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

I appreciate your input Jer, but that's not really the question. What myself
and the rest of the family is trying to determine is what was then, and is
now, technologically possible.

The owner of the phone (by brother) is the person asking for the
information. Requests for this information has been requested by the police
department with his blessing since day 2.

The police department and state's Attorney General's Office determined a
subponia was the approiate course of action, and was what was stated by
Cingular as being required. I see no need to second guess any of them, but
will certainly keep your suggestions in mind in the event the subponia
doesn't yeild favorable results.

To the best of our knowledge, based on what Cingular has admitted, the login
was received on one of their local towers, so roaming and other shared
services shouldn't be a problem. But at this point, they are telling some of
us they can't determine which tower took the login.

Thanks for your input,
Tom

"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Frey wrote:
> > Cingular was contacted by my brother, the owner of the phone and
account,
> > about 11a.m. the next day. She turned on phone on just three hours
later,
> > but no calls have been made to date. It was the first time the phone had
> > been turned on in 7 months, per Cingular. However Cingular never
contacted
> > anyone, and would not admit the phone had been turned on for about 6
more
> > days, and two more phone calls from my brother.
> >
> > My step mother would have never gone incognito. Her cherished pets were
> > abandoned. She was a 40 year founding member of her church yet contacted
> > neither her sisters or church friends. Her bank account has not been
> > touched, she kept little cash at home. She would not drive on
expressways,
> > or after dark, and she has always asked to be driven in those instances.
> >
> > In the past few days a subponia has been issued by the state's Attorney
> > Generals's Office, although it was my brother's phone, and of course he
is
> > fully cooperating with the family and police.
> >
> > I'm trying to determine what kind of information could have, or should
have
> > been available the very next day, as well as the days following. In our
> > opinion, Cingular is clearly not cooperating with anyone, including the
> > police department, they contacted no one when the phone was turned on.
> > That's why I am soliciting here for expert opinions, hopefully from
persons
> > familiar with these type of systems, to see what can be done now, or
should
> > have been done the day the phone was turned on.
> >
>
>
> Tom I'm trying to empathize with your situation as well as any stranger
> can, and I'm certainly don't want to sound like I'm defending Cingular
> in particular. However, Cingular, like any provider, has a office
> somewhere (Atlanta?) that serves as a single point-of-contact for this
> type of thing (Subpoena Compliance Dept). Ordinarily, privacy laws and
> corporate policies that support them going to require a warrant to
> release any info about a customer, so getting law enforcement officially
> involved to at least this level should be priority one. Beyond that,
> yes, rules and policies have been bent in the interest of brevity, but
> the release of sensitive info will only occur under the highest scrutiny
> possible. In the interest of spreading the wealth, any business that
> obtains, records, uses, and retains personally identifiable detailed
> information about a customer is held to the same level of
> responsibility, ie. financial, medical, municipal, etc.
>
> For your reference:
> Title 1 = billing and usage records, ie. historical only
> Title 2 = real-time digital data only (digits dialed) and Title 1 above
> Title 3 = real-time & record analog data (voice) and Title 1 & 2 above
>
> You'll notice there's no mention of location info, because there's no
> current provision in any of the above criminal warrant requirements for
> it. In these circumstances, the term "life or death" emergency are
> paramount for action. Location info has always been provided (within
> technological limits) for 911 calls, given the presumptive nature of
> calling an emergency number. Yes, improvements have been made for
> homing in on a handset's location, but only if the caller dials 911.
> Outside of that event, anything more is a crap shoot, especially when
> dealing with Homeland Security. Keywords = health and welfare
>
> It may also serve to understand that Cingular will only be able to
> respond with info gleaned from their own internal systems, other
> providers would have to supply their own cards to the table
> independently. Keyword = roaming.
>
> I hope this has been helpful for you in your time of concern.
>
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Tom Frey wrote:
> My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But Cingular
> is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the login. I
> think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction of
> the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.

At the very least, they should be able to find out which cell the phone
logged into. Chances are they won't give YOU that information, but the
they will give it to police, if compelled to do so.


--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

Tom Frey wrote:
> The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is
> Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe it.

At that late stage (29 days) there's another factor to consider. Is it
believed she might have a cell phone charger with her? I hate to put a
damper on the possibilities here, but given that it's an AMPS phone, I
fear the battery isn't going to last long and without recharging, and
without access to a charger (which I doubt is readily available for such
an old phone) it could be long dead by now, and thus not transmitting
anything.

Not even the most efficient digital cell phones will last 29 days on
standby without spending some time plugged into a wall or car socket.


> Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler
> effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do.

They can in theory. But, what MAY be causing the problem is that AMPS
doesn't have any sort of soft-handoff capability, in other words, it has
no ability for a phone to be connected with two or more cell sites to
ease the handoff when an active handset moves during a call. This is
why when a call was handed off in analog, both parties KNEW and could
tell it was happening.

The AMPS system was very advanced for its day, but quite rudimentary by
current technological standards in that generally one and only one cell
site could be formally connected to a handset at once. This greatly
limits the possibilities of triangulation.

It also depends largely on how Cingular has their AMPS gear configured.
I have a feeling they've let the condition of the gear deterioriate
quite a bit to the point where it offers only extrmemely basic features
and service levels to stay "legal" in the eyes of the FCC. As a result,
they might have removed a lot of the gear that normally would have been
used for this sort of tracking. They could also be using very few
frequencies for AMPS (bandwidth IS limited on Cingular) and configuring
multiple analog suites to operate in a "zone" fashion rather than by
individual cell site.

> I'm hoping
> someone here with actual experience can answer the question for certain. I
> know of no other place to shop for experts for a second opinion.

Unfortuantely, I don't think we can give you a definitive answer
without knowing some inside information on what Cingular has done with
their AMPS network, how it's configured, and what features and
capabilities it still has as opposed to what parts have been left to rot
or been cannibalized for TDMA or GSM.


--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

"Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Frey wrote:
> > My step mother is missing and her phone logged in the next day. But
Cingular
> > is claiming they can't even tell which of the Tulsa towers took the
login. I
> > think they can, and suspect they can also tell the approximate direction
of
> > the signal. So I thought I would pose the question here.
>
> At the very least, they should be able to find out which cell the phone
> logged into. Chances are they won't give YOU that information, but the
> they will give it to police, if compelled to do so.
>
By which cell, do you mean which tower?
The information has been requested by the police department, and is now the
subject of a subponia from the state's attorney generals office. But the
subponia was issued on the 12th, and as of the 26th we were not aware it had
been answered yet.
>
> --
> E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
> Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

"Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Frey wrote:
> > The police are involved guys, she has been missing 29 days. Problem is
> > Cingular is giving the police the same story, and I still don't believe
it.
>
> At that late stage (29 days) there's another factor to consider. Is it
> believed she might have a cell phone charger with her? I hate to put a
> damper on the possibilities here, but given that it's an AMPS phone, I
> fear the battery isn't going to last long and without recharging, and
> without access to a charger (which I doubt is readily available for such
> an old phone) it could be long dead by now, and thus not transmitting
> anything.
>
> Not even the most efficient digital cell phones will last 29 days on
> standby without spending some time plugged into a wall or car socket.

Prior to the next day the phone had not logged in since 12/29/04, she never
use it. But she did carry a car charger and had be instructed that is was
required for use. We suspect she would have had to plug it in to attempt a
call, and trigger a login at the tower. Cingular has acknowledged the login
at 2:40 pm the next day, but hasn't indicated that a number was dialed. We
wonder if she dialed a number, and didn't remember to press the send key.
They had been notified just three hour or so before that she was missing,
and the police had taken a report and was fully involved. But they did not
report the incident until the second phone request from my brother, some 5
days later.

>
>
> > Cell towers have three antenas and they could easily could use doppler
> > effect for direction finding, but I'm not sure if they do.
>
> They can in theory. But, what MAY be causing the problem is that AMPS
> doesn't have any sort of soft-handoff capability, in other words, it has
> no ability for a phone to be connected with two or more cell sites to
> ease the handoff when an active handset moves during a call. This is
> why when a call was handed off in analog, both parties KNEW and could
> tell it was happening.
>
> The AMPS system was very advanced for its day, but quite rudimentary by
> current technological standards in that generally one and only one cell
> site could be formally connected to a handset at once. This greatly
> limits the possibilities of triangulation.
>
> It also depends largely on how Cingular has their AMPS gear configured.
> I have a feeling they've let the condition of the gear deterioriate
> quite a bit to the point where it offers only extrmemely basic features
> and service levels to stay "legal" in the eyes of the FCC. As a result,
> they might have removed a lot of the gear that normally would have been
> used for this sort of tracking. They could also be using very few
> frequencies for AMPS (bandwidth IS limited on Cingular) and configuring
> multiple analog suites to operate in a "zone" fashion rather than by
> individual cell site.
>
> > I'm hoping
> > someone here with actual experience can answer the question for certain.
I
> > know of no other place to shop for experts for a second opinion.
>
> Unfortuantely, I don't think we can give you a definitive answer
> without knowing some inside information on what Cingular has done with
> their AMPS network, how it's configured, and what features and
> capabilities it still has as opposed to what parts have been left to rot
> or been cannibalized for TDMA or GSM.
>

That's excellent input, and not something we had thought to consider. We
have been afraid their reluctance might be based on the possibility they
might have had the chance to save a life and yet took no action. But
allowing their AMPS equipment to deteriorate might be hampering their own
internal efforts as well. Now I wonder if their reluctance might be based on
allowing their equipment to deteriorate below FCC minimums. Upon conclusion,
we will be filling a formal written with the FCC, and it might be a good
time to pose that suspicion as well.

Thanks so much for taking time to post your ideas.