Tethered Data Connection Plans

David Friedman wrote:
> Am I missing anything?

Right here, David:

Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages
for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or
networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device
tethering.

www.cingular.com/media/media_legal

---

› See More: Tethered Data Connection Plans

I stand corrected...well, the manager stands corrected as he originally
referred to it as the MNUM plan. It is NOT part of MNUM. Its a plan that
allows unlimited data usage with your phone tethered to you laptop and
does not come out of any minutes bucket.

I can't find it on the Cingular web pages, but he talked directly to his
activations coordinator at Cingular and got the plan. I didn't catch the
code he used for the plan.

In article <[email protected]>,
DecTxCowboy <[email protected]> wrote:

> David Friedman wrote:
> > Am I missing anything?
>
> Right here, David:
>
> Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages
> for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or
> networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device
> tethering.
>
> www.cingular.com/media/media_legal

I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I
am agreeing not to tether. The customer agreement is lower down on the
same page, says nothing about tethering, and explicitly says that no
other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by
Cingular.

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
11:57:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

>> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
>> 10:46:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >Am I missing anything?
>>
>> <https://cingular.com/media/media_net_purchase>
>> Bottom of the page: View our MEdia Legal Notices
>> <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>.
>> Incorporated into the Subscriber Agreement by reference.
>
>That's what I was looking at.
>
>"Your use of the service, or signed acknowledgement, will indicate your
>acceptance of all of the following terms. "
>
>That can't refer to the "General Conditions for MEdia Services," which
>is where the bit about tethering appears, because that bit is preceding,
>not following. ...

It's in the same document. Whether it's before or after is irrelevant.

--
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John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
11:49:43 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

>> The serious downside is that without the data package, the charges for your
>> data use could be astronomical.
>
>I thought the 19.99 package, which I had for a month or two, included
>unlimited data use. I assume that if they terminate it, for tethering or
>other reasons, they have to tell you.

I think so, but all it would take is a notice in your bill, and there's no
assurance that you would be told in advance, since you are violating the terms
of the agreement.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
11:48:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> SMS <[email protected]> wrote:

>> It may be intentional on the part of Cingular to make tethering
>> unattractive.
>
>Except that other people claim to have done with no serious problem.

Yet.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
17:24:55 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>In the clear, unless at some point they tell you that they are no longer
>willing to sell you the service on those terms.

<http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>

--
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John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
13:56:29 -0700, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>>
>> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:03:18 +0000 (UTC),
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>If Cingular is deciding who is tethering based on the MB of data being
>>>used, mistakes could be made. My Motorola v551 clearly keeps track of
>>>"internal data" verses "external data". I don't know if Cingular has
>>>access to that counter.
>>
>> No need: Cingular accurately tracks how much data you use as part of its
>> back
>> end billing system.

>Source? Or is this another uneducated guess?

Hint: Look at your bill.

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John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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In <[email protected]> on Thu, 24 Nov 2005
05:13:25 GMT, DecTxCowboy <[email protected]> wrote:

>I stand corrected...well, the manager stands corrected as he originally
>referred to it as the MNUM plan. It is NOT part of MNUM. Its a plan that
>allows unlimited data usage with your phone tethered to you laptop and
>does not come out of any minutes bucket.
>
>I can't find it on the Cingular web pages, but he talked directly to his
>activations coordinator at Cingular and got the plan. I didn't catch the
>code he used for the plan.

As I've shown you a number of time, it's called Data Connect (sometimes
referred to as Laptop Connect) Unlimited, and the current promotional price
(offered through the end of the year) is $59.99/month.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
22:19:56 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> DecTxCowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> David Friedman wrote:
>> > Am I missing anything?
>>
>> Right here, David:
>>
>> Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages
>> for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or
>> networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device
>> tethering.
>>
>> www.cingular.com/media/media_legal
>
>I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I
>am agreeing not to tether.

It informs you that MEdia is not for tethering, and that Cingular can remove
you from MEdia for tethering.

>The customer agreement is lower down on the
>same page, says nothing about tethering, and explicitly says that no
>other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by
>Cingular.

The entire document is the agreement, not just the bottom portion -- that
argument isn't going to fly.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

In article <G%[email protected]>,
John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
> 17:24:55 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In the clear, unless at some point they tell you that they are no longer
> >willing to sell you the service on those terms.
>
> <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>

As I have pointed out in at least one earlier post, that page has a
statement of "General Conditions for MEdia Services" and, below it,
"Media Net Subscriber Agreement." The former contains:

"MEdia Net packages are not intended for tethering. Cingular reserves
the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages for the use of a
wireless device as an interface to other devices or networks, as
determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device tethering."

The latter, which is what the customer is agreeing to, says nothing
about tethering. It does say that:

" You further acknowledge that this Agreement and all other present and
future written agreements between you and Cingular Wireless constitute
the complete statement of the agreement between you and Cingular
Wireless, and that the agreement does not include any other or prior
contemporaneous promises, representations or descriptions regarding the
Service or the Information even if it were contained in materials
provided by Cingular Wireless."

That makes it clear that the description of the service provided by
Cingular Wireless under the title "General Conditions for MEdia
Services" is not part of the agreement between you and Cingular.

So Cingular is telling you that the package is not intended for
tethering, and that Cingular reserves the right to remove you from the
package for tethering. It is not, however, asking you to agree not to
tether.

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In article <[email protected]>,
John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
> 11:49:43 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> The serious downside is that without the data package, the charges for your
> >> data use could be astronomical.
> >
> >I thought the 19.99 package, which I had for a month or two, included
> >unlimited data use. I assume that if they terminate it, for tethering or
> >other reasons, they have to tell you.
>
> I think so, but all it would take is a notice in your bill, and there's no
> assurance that you would be told in advance, since you are violating the terms
> of the agreement.

As I explained in the post I just sent, I am not violating the terms of
the agreement. The MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement says nothing about
tethering, and does say that descriptions of the service by Cingular are
not included in the agreement.

What I am doing is taking an action that gives Cingular the right to
terminate the package.

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www.daviddfriedman.com

In article <%[email protected]>,
John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
> 11:57:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
> >> 10:46:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >Am I missing anything?
> >>
> >> <https://cingular.com/media/media_net_purchase>
> >> Bottom of the page: View our MEdia Legal Notices
> >> <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>.
> >> Incorporated into the Subscriber Agreement by reference.
> >
> >That's what I was looking at.
> >
> >"Your use of the service, or signed acknowledgement, will indicate your
> >acceptance of all of the following terms. "
> >
> >That can't refer to the "General Conditions for MEdia Services," which
> >is where the bit about tethering appears, because that bit is preceding,
> >not following. ...
>
> It's in the same document. Whether it's before or after is irrelevant.

It is on the same web page. It is not in the "same document" in any
legally, morally or logically relevant sense.

In particular, it is not in the Subscriber Agreement--and the subscriber
agreement is quite explicit about not including other material,
including descriptions of the service by Cingular.

The web page contains three different documents:

* General Conditions for MEdia Services
* MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement
* DirectBill Service Agreement

The first is a description of the service by Cingular. The second and
third are agreements between you and Cingular.

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In article <[email protected]>,
John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
> 22:19:56 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > DecTxCowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> David Friedman wrote:
> >> > Am I missing anything?
> >>
> >> Right here, David:
> >>
> >> Cingular reserves the right to remove customers from MEdia Net packages
> >> for the use of a wireless device as an interface to other devices or
> >> networks, as determined by Cingular, including but not limited to device
> >> tethering.
> >>
> >> www.cingular.com/media/media_legal
> >
> >I wasn't missing that. It says they can remove me. It doesn't say that I
> >am agreeing not to tether.
>
> It informs you that MEdia is not for tethering, and that Cingular can remove
> you from MEdia for tethering.
>
> >The customer agreement is lower down on the
> >same page, says nothing about tethering, and explicitly says that no
> >other statements are incorporated in the agreement, even if made by
> >Cingular.
>
> The entire document is the agreement, not just the bottom portion -- that
> argument isn't going to fly.

The entire web page is clearly not the agreement. The agreement is the
part after its title: DirectBill Service Agreement. If you read the
text, you will see that the part before that is a description of the
service. After that we have:

MEdia Net Subscriber Agreement
Important: Read this agreement before using the service provided by
Cingular Wireless. Your use of the service, or signed acknowledgement,
will indicate your acceptance of all of the following terms. If this
Agreement is unacceptable to you, do not use the Service. Cingular
Wireless is willing to provide you the Service only if you agree to be
bound by the following terms:

"Following" means "following." It doesn't mean "following or preceding."

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In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
23:25:26 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <%[email protected]>,
> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
>> 11:57:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> In <[email protected]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005
>> >> 10:46:30 -0800, David Friedman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> >Am I missing anything?
>> >>
>> >> <https://cingular.com/media/media_net_purchase>
>> >> Bottom of the page: View our MEdia Legal Notices
>> >> <http://www.cingular.com/media/media_legal>.
>> >> Incorporated into the Subscriber Agreement by reference.
>> >
>> >That's what I was looking at.
>> >
>> >"Your use of the service, or signed acknowledgement, will indicate your
>> >acceptance of all of the following terms. "
>> >
>> >That can't refer to the "General Conditions for MEdia Services," which
>> >is where the bit about tethering appears, because that bit is preceding,
>> >not following. ...
>>
>> It's in the same document. Whether it's before or after is irrelevant.
>
>It is on the same web page. It is not in the "same document" in any
>legally, morally or logically relevant sense.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Best of luck in the event you try to
make your argument stick.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>