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  1. #1
    Shannon
    Guest
    Has anyone heard of cingular having any intentions to offer
    this service? nextel and verizon both offer this service.
    it sure would be nice to be able to track the kids whereabouts
    at any given time.





    See More: gps mobile tracking




  2. #2
    Thurman
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking


    "Shannon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Has anyone heard of cingular having any intentions to offer
    > this service? nextel and verizon both offer this service.
    > it sure would be nice to be able to track the kids whereabouts
    > at any given time.


    For the present, Cingular depends on an external GPS except for HP PDAs.
    Just this week, more cell phones have been announced by the manufacturers
    that have a GPS chip installed, but have not been through the service
    providers configuration.

    I suggested my daughter look at the Walt Disney cell phones that do not look
    like a Mickey Mouse phone. Disney has done some interesting 'usage fencing
    re max minutes, whom can be called, location, etc. My only mistake was
    mentioning it front of my granddaughters.





  3. #3
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    Thurman wrote:

    > For the present, Cingular depends on an external GPS except for HP PDAs.
    > Just this week, more cell phones have been announced by the manufacturers
    > that have a GPS chip installed, but have not been through the service
    > providers configuration.


    Cingular and T-Mobile use a less accurate positioning system, called
    TDOA, which is accurate to about 350 feet (at least 95% of the time).
    The Verizon GPS system is at least twice as accurate (about 150 feet)
    and in most cases is accurate to 50 feet or better.

    I think we'll see a lot more GPS capable handsets as European carriers
    are adding GPS capability to their systems, but unless Cingular deploys
    a way to use the GPS capability in new handsets it won't matter, as
    there will be no way to do tracking.



  4. #4
    Thurman
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking


    "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Thurman wrote:
    >
    >> For the present, Cingular depends on an external GPS except for HP PDAs.
    >> Just this week, more cell phones have been announced by the manufacturers
    >> that have a GPS chip installed, but have not been through the service
    >> providers configuration.

    >
    > Cingular and T-Mobile use a less accurate positioning system, called TDOA,
    > which is accurate to about 350 feet (at least 95% of the time). The
    > Verizon GPS system is at least twice as accurate (about 150 feet) and in
    > most cases is accurate to 50 feet or better.
    >


    I upgraded to a 8525 in November to be used with a Holux GPSlim236. They
    offered Telenav free for the first 6 weeks. Since I owned Microsoft Streets
    and Trips and DeLorme's Street Atlas, I tried it. It's a nice service but
    the 'yellow page' directory is limited. My best guess for accuracy was ~12
    feet parked, ~50 feet at 30mph, 100 feet at 70mph. I suspicion Telenav uses
    your queries to update their database from the address you enter. That's an
    inexpensive way to build a directory, but slow. I dropped it because $10/mon
    goes on forever.

    Holux GPS crashed after 24 hours of use over 6 months. Holux, in spite of
    their inbox warranty statement, will not warranty their deice except through
    the dealer. The eBay dealer, first to sell a SiRF III GPS in the U.S., had
    glowing reports when I bought it but disappeared in the 6 months. Rumor is
    some company was cloning Holux GPS units.

    After research, I chose an iTrek M6. It is four times the performance of the
    Holux; fast start, easier Bluetooth bonding, etc.

    If I could just get Google Mobile Maps to recognize the GPS in Mobile 5,
    things would be great. If Cingular does a pass thru of the new Mobile 6,
    things may improve.





  5. #5
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    Jer wrote:

    > The rumor I heard is currently gearing up to offer AGPS/LBS services. I
    > presume they'll leverage their existing TP system for it. As to what
    > adjunct services will be available...


    Huh, who is gearing up? I know that the GSM carriers in Europe are doing
    this, but I haven't heard of Cingular or T-Mobile doing it.

    The adjunct services when it's available will be the same as the
    services that Sprint/Nextel, and Verizon can offer now, location based
    services such as tracking field service employees, tracking your kids, etc.

    The GSM carriers were in a rush to meet the FCC E911 requirements, and
    did the minimum they could with their TDOA system. They really have no
    choice but to eventually upgrade to a GPS based system, if they want to
    go after the high-value corporate customers that need the adjunct services.



  6. #6
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    At 16 Feb 2007 17:43:08 +0000 John Navas wrote:

    > Cingular U-TDOA is actually accurate to better than 50 meters (150 feet)
    > 98% of the time. <http://www.trueposition.com/TrueNorth-utdoa.php>


    Actually you combined two individual data points there- the 98% was
    "yield"- the percentage of time location could be established, and the
    "under 50 meters" was the best-case accuracy - they don't claim the two
    together!

    They simply claim their performance "exceeds the FCC E-911 Phase II
    accuracy requirements in virtually any environment." (67% of calls
    within 100 meters and 95% of calls within 300 meters.)


    > Verizon A-GPS (assisted, not pure, GPS) is actually not that accurate,
    > especially when there's no clear line of sight to GPS satellites. Rated
    > accuracy is the same as U-TDOA (50 meters, 67% of the time).
    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS>


    Nothing on that page seemed to discuss the accuracy of A-GPS that I saw.

    Ironically, the first thing that page DID display was "This article or
    section does not cite its references or sources." ;-)





  7. #7
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    Todd Allcock wrote:

    > They simply claim their performance "exceeds the FCC E-911 Phase II
    > accuracy requirements in virtually any environment." (67% of calls
    > within 100 meters and 95% of calls within 300 meters.)


    Right, 300 meters is the accuracy, not 50 meters.

    > Ironically, the first thing that page DID display was "This article or
    > section does not cite its references or sources." ;-)


    The V325/V325i is a true GPS phone, with accuracies down in the 10 meter
    range.

    It's becoming very popular for location based services. I was surprised
    that it included AMPS support, until my wife told me that her company
    was buying hundreds of these phones, not only for the GPS, but for the
    AMPS coverage. Her company sends field people to the nether regions of
    the Bay Area counties, and AMPS is often all that's available (their old
    Nextel system was worthless).



  8. #8
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    At 16 Feb 2007 23:26:07 -0800 SMS wrote:

    > Right, 300 meters is the accuracy, not 50 meters.


    No, actually John was partially correct- the GSM locator system he
    referenced is in use by Cingular and T-Mobile and provides accuracy
    _up_to_ 50 meters. Just not 95% of the time.

    Either way, it's immaterial to the topic at hand- 50-300 meters is good
    enough for many location-based applications, but Cingular and T-Mo
    currently do not offer any I'm aware of (but AT&T Wireless used to over
    GSM- they offered a Disney Mobile-esque "buddy locator" service long
    before the Mouse went mobile!)



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com




  9. #9
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 16 Feb 2007 23:26:07 -0800 SMS wrote:
    >
    >> Right, 300 meters is the accuracy, not 50 meters.

    >
    > No, actually John was partially correct- the GSM locator system he
    > referenced is in use by Cingular and T-Mobile and provides accuracy
    > _up_to_ 50 meters. Just not 95% of the time.


    Right, that's what I said. "Cingular and T-Mobile use a less accurate
    positioning system, called TDOA, which is accurate to about 350 feet (at
    least 95% of the time)."

    TruePosition's U-TDOA Location Solution Provides High Accuracy ...
    within 47.1 meters 67% of the time, and within 112.2 meters 95% of the time.

    For location based services, the 112 meters is unusable. You can't be
    that far off 33% of the time when you're implementing an ITS system.

    I'm sure that Cingular will deploy a GPS based system eventually. Many
    of the European GSM carriers are doing this even though it's not a
    government requirement.



  10. #10
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking


    "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Right, that's what I said. "Cingular and T-Mobile use a less accurate
    > positioning system, called TDOA, which is accurate to about 350 feet (at
    > least 95% of the time)."


    Ah, I missed the nuance. I assumed you meant the accuracy was always ~ 350
    feet.

    > TruePosition's U-TDOA Location Solution Provides High Accuracy ...
    > within 47.1 meters 67% of the time, and within 112.2 meters 95% of the
    > time.
    >
    > For location based services, the 112 meters is unusable. You can't be that
    > far off 33% of the time when you're implementing an ITS system.


    That's too broad a statement- it depends on the application of the data. If
    I want to know if my son is at his friend's house like he said, rather than
    at the mall or the arcade, 350 feet is fine. In fact, off the top of my
    head, I can envision plenty of applications for which 350 feet is plenty
    usable. I'd agree in-car navigation isn't one of them, because determining
    exactly which street someone is on would be dicey, but if a service company
    wants to know which employee is closest to an emergency call, or a parcel
    company wants to dispatch the nearest truck to an address for a pick-up,
    again, 350 would do it easily. I'll conceed, however, that if I want to
    know if my employee stopped at the local bar instead of the deli next door
    for his lunch, or we want to know exactly which room Mr. Bond has
    infiltrated in SPECTRE's headquarters, 350 feet leaves much to be desired!

    > I'm sure that Cingular will deploy a GPS based system eventually. Many of
    > the European GSM carriers are doing this even though it's not a government
    > requirement.


    As GPS chipsets drop in price, AND an actual demand is there, perhaps. But
    since the most likely to be adopted widespread uses of location services
    will be gaming, kiddie tracking and targeted-advertising (spam!) I'm not
    sure Cingular needs to invest in more accuracy. It might be cheaper to let
    the niche customers like your wife's employer walk away, than upgrade an
    entire system for very little return.

    Besides, as "real" GPS receivers (not relying on tower position or
    off-handset calculation like A-GPS) become more common in handsets, the
    handset manufacturers might want a piece of the action formerly reserved for
    carriers. It's easy to envision Nokia, Microsoft, or Palm customizing apps
    or at least an API so they or third parties could sell location based
    services- why move the family plan to Disney Mobile if Nokia sets their
    phones up to send the GPS data to a Nokia server via GPRS or SMS that I can
    access from my phone via a low cost subscription? Like ringtones or
    international LD, GPS tracking data might eventually become a competitve
    marketplace, not solely in the province of wireless carriers.










    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com




  11. #11
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    Todd Allcock wrote:

    > That's too broad a statement- it depends on the application of the data. If
    > I want to know if my son is at his friend's house like he said, rather than
    > at the mall or the arcade, 350 feet is fine. In fact, off the top of my
    > head, I can envision plenty of applications for which 350 feet is plenty
    > usable. I'd agree in-car navigation isn't one of them, because determining
    > exactly which street someone is on would be dicey, but if a service company
    > wants to know which employee is closest to an emergency call, or a parcel
    > company wants to dispatch the nearest truck to an address for a pick-up,
    > again, 350 would do it easily. I'll conceed, however, that if I want to
    > know if my employee stopped at the local bar instead of the deli next door
    > for his lunch, or we want to know exactly which room Mr. Bond has
    > infiltrated in SPECTRE's headquarters, 350 feet leaves much to be desired!


    Sad to say, but many businesses do want to know exactly where the
    employee is, to withing a few feet.
    >
    > As GPS chipsets drop in price, AND an actual demand is there, perhaps. But
    > since the most likely to be adopted widespread uses of location services
    > will be gaming, kiddie tracking and targeted-advertising (spam!) I'm not
    > sure Cingular needs to invest in more accuracy.


    For non-business users you're correct. But businesses are deploying most
    of these systems to track field employees. It's not just to be big
    brother, in some cases it's to ensure that the field people are not
    violating any confidentiality regulations by stopping by the local
    Starbucks to do their paperwork in a non-secure environment.

    > It might be cheaper to let
    > the niche customers like your wife's employer walk away, than upgrade an
    > entire system for very little return.


    Perhaps, but this is an employer with tens of thousands of field
    employees across the country, and if the field trial is successful it
    means tens of thousands of new high ARPU customers. And that's just one
    employer.

    > Besides, as "real" GPS receivers (not relying on tower position or
    > off-handset calculation like A-GPS) become more common in handsets, the
    > handset manufacturers might want a piece of the action formerly reserved for
    > carriers.


    Verizon will be quick to eliminate this possibility with defeatured
    handsets.>



  12. #12

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    My year old hand-held GPS doesn't work in my house, or under the trees
    outside when they're wet. Is the GPS in cell phones much better?



  13. #13
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    At 16 Feb 2007 09:34:44 -0600 Thurman wrote:

    > After research, I chose an iTrek M6. It is four times the performance

    of the
    > Holux; fast start, easier Bluetooth bonding, etc.
    >
    > If I could just get Google Mobile Maps to recognize the GPS in Mobile

    5,
    > things would be great.


    Google doesn't "look" for your GPS- it relies on the OS "telling" GMM
    where it is.

    Unfortunately the settings applet to do this is hidden- to get it back,
    you'll need a registry editor, and make the following changes:

    Add a new DWORD in "HKLM\ControlPanel\GPS Settings" named "Group" and set
    it to 2.


    Delete the "HKLM\ControlPanel\GPS Settings\redirect" key. (I think it's
    called "Hide" instead of "redirect" on some devices- whichever it's called,
    delete it!)


    > If Cingular does a pass thru of the new Mobile 6,
    > things may improve.


    Unless it stays hidden in WM6 as well! ;-)

    After making the changes, exit the editor, wait a few seconds (registry
    writes take awhile in WM5) then reset the phone. Now go into Settings >
    Connections and select "External GPS" and setup the port your BT GPS
    connects to.






  14. #14
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    At 17 Feb 2007 14:33:06 -0600 Jer wrote:
    > A higher number of sat channels available improves things, but I don't

    know how many sat channels a cell phone uses. Anybody know?


    Well, given that this is a Cingular NG, that's an easy one: zero channels.

    Cingular and T-Mobile use a cell tower-triangulation based system.

    Sprint and Verizon use an "asssisted GPS" system that uses a GPS
    satellite receiver chip in the phone along with info from nearby towers
    to quicken the time to get a fix to just a few seconds, as opposed to the
    30-90 seconds a GPS takes to get a first fix on a cold start.

    I don't think those phones use many channels, but they don't really have
    to- the "assist" from the towers is that the phone is told by the tower
    which satellites are overhead and their approximate positions, so the GPS
    doesn't have to waste time searching, or reading more sats than necessary.




    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com




  15. #15
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: gps mobile tracking

    At 17 Feb 2007 03:23:00 -0800 SMS wrote:

    > > Besides, as "real" GPS receivers (not relying on tower position or

    off-handset calculation like A-GPS) become more common in handsets, the
    handset manufacturers might want a piece of the action formerly reserved
    for carriers.
    >
    > Verizon will be quick to eliminate this possibility with defeatured

    handsets.>

    That's the beauty of competition- if Verizon crippled their handsets to
    prevent potentially better location-based systems from being used, those
    same companies embracing Verizon service now might leave for other
    carriers that don't block such services.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but to comply with E911 rules, current handsets
    trade accuracy for speed in order to get a quicker fix (part of E911
    compliance.) It would seem to me that a much cheaper and more accurate
    system could easily be devised by writing a custom app (either in-house
    or contracted) to relay real-time satellite GPS data via GPRS/EVDO
    directly back to the company. This would require either a handset with a
    built-in satellite GPS, like some of the high-end WinMo devices, or for
    lower-cost, perhaps a java-based data relay app on a "stock" BT handset
    using an external BT GPS (left in the employee's vehicle.)

    Leaving the actual "tracking device" (the BT GPS) in the vehicle
    eliminates the Orwellian info your wife's outfit is trying to collect,
    but the vast majority of companies using this type of system is trying to
    coordinate delivery, pickup, or dispatching- not to catch which employees
    are stopping at 7-11 for a Zagnut bar on the way to their next meeting.

    Verizon is getting $30-50/month/employee on top of cellular service fees
    for their "field management" tracking system. For an organization like
    your wife's, with tens of thousands of potential trackees, the cost
    savings of an in-house system could be huge over a relatively short period,
    I would think.



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com




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