Re: Breaking Rumor: Apple iPhone goes enterprise on Jan. 21

"Mitch" <mitch@hawaii.rr> stated in post 260120081712294320%mitch@hawaii.rr
on 1/26/08 8:12 PM:

>> However, a simple Google search, which apparently is beyond the capability
>> of fanboy Mitch in Hawaii, shows that people have been having this problem
>> with iPhone too.

> I didn't claim that no one was having the problem, or that it was with
> just one version of the devices. I suggested it wasn't usual.

I have noticed this tactic with the trolls - they hunt down every problem
they can with the iPhone or Leopard or the Mac or Apple in general and then
claim they have had these problems. Over time it becomes clear they are
lying - no reason to think any one person has all those problems, they
cannot describe the problems (sometimes to the extreme of not even being
able to quote or paraphrase error messages they claim to get), and their
stories change over time. They often will have people co-trolling with them
insisting they are right, but, of course, even those people cannot list the
all the problems that were claimed - not even the biggest supporters of the
trolls can keep track of the ever changing and growing lists.

Weird. Just weird. Who do they think they are fooling? People are just
not as dumb as the trolls need them to be in order to fall for such BS.

--
Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/f34z
Feel free to ask for the recipe.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Snit posted:
> I have noticed this tactic with the trolls - they hunt down every problem
> they can with the iPhone or Leopard or the Mac or Apple in general and then
> claim they have had these problems.

There's one little problem with your little fanboy theory:

APPLE TAKES MY REPORT SERIOUSLY.

I am in contact with their engineers. They are *very* interested in
reproducing what I saw.

Apparently, there is a known problem with iTunes; on some hardware
configurations the USB port gets screwed up in the course of
loading/restoring the software onto the iToy and that leads to the
failure.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Mitch posted:
> Actually, I think I said you can't rate it's useability and design
> fairly without giving using it a fair trial.

I bricked two iPod Touch devices in one evening by doing nothing other
than going through the initial setup with iTunes on a Macintosh including
agreeing to let iTunes install the latest software.

It was only after the second one (and an unnecessary 50 mile round trip to
the store) that I thought of trying iTunes on a Windows system; and
Windows unbricked it.

Apple, at least, is very interested in following up on my report.
Apple's fanboys just want to silence me.

> I'm not accepting that
> Mark Crispin could ever compare anything without using it; others might
> compare features and compare just those usefully. Mark is too motivated
> to make unfair generalizations, claims, and comparisons.

According to Mitch, it is unfair to point out that:
. iPhone is locked to the worst network in the USA and Apple aggressively
attacks unlocked iPhones.
. iPhone lacks 3G - hence poor sales in Europe and no chance of sales in
Japan.
. iPhone's GSM performance is average; it is not the best-performing GSM
phone on the market.
. iPhone omits most Bluetooth functionality.
. iPhone lacks the ability to tether to a laptop (you are paying HOW MUCH
for a data plan just to do web browsing???).
. iPhone lacks voice dialing - a basic feature on all but the cheapest
phones.
. iPhone is very expensive, not just compared to other phones, but to
Internet tablets (such as Nokia N800) and phones combined.
. iPhone ($400) is expensive compared to iPod Classic ($330) which has
20 times as much storage capacity.
. iPod Touch 16GB ($400) and iPod Touch 8GB ($300) are expensive
compared to iPod Classic ($330) which has 10-20 times as much storage
capacity and is equally good at being an iPod.
. iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N800 ($230 on
Amazon) which has 2 SDHC slots (thus expandable to 32GB), has more
than twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so
can be tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, and is a
completely open platform.
. iPod Touch is somewhat expensive compared to Sony mylo second
generation ($300), which has more than twice the screen resolution
and has a Memory Stick Pro Duo slot expandable to 32GB.
. iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N810 ($230 on
Amazon) which has a miniSD slot expandable to 32GB, has more than
twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so can be
tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, has built-in
GPS, has a keyboard, and is a completely open platform.
. iPhone and iPod Touch are closed platforms, precluding third party
software development, and Apple aggressively attacks jailbroken
iPhones and iPod Touches. Apple's promise of an SDK is just that;
a promise, nothing more. Until it is available, and its capabilities
studied and verified to provide an open development environment, the
platform is closed.
. iPhone and iPod Touch can only be managed via iTunes, a consumer-grade
product that is not at all suitable in enterprises.
. iPhone and iPod Touch do not permit direct download from the Internet;
it must go through iTunes.
. iPhone and iPod Touch only permit synchronization with a single
computer. Even ancient Windows CE devices allowed synchronization
with multiple computers!
. iPhone and iPod Touch have only a basic contact management application
with very limited controls. For example, you can set how names are
displayed, but only for all names. If you set "Last Name, First
Name" (as in a phone book, or to display East Asian names correctly),
it screws up on names with middle names: it actually does "Last,
Middle, First" (e.g., "George W. Bush" comes out as "Bush W. George").
. iPhone and iPod Touch lack a task management application.
. iPhone and iPod Touch, by virtue of using capacitance technology,
preclude the use of a stylus for more precise screen operations.
. iPhone and iPod Touch have very low (320x480) screen resolution for an
Internet tablet (Nokia N800/N810 and Sony mylo all have 800x480).
Compared to Internet tablets, web page reading is quite painful due to
the need to zoom in and zoom out.

As part of my testing, I put the iPod Touch and the Nokia N800 side by
side and asked other people which gave a better Internet access
experience. Typical comments about the iPod Touch was "I can't read it",
"photos are washed out and grainy", "too hard to type on it".

The iPhone and iPod Touch are not particularly good Internet tablets; nor
is iPhone a particularly impressive smartphone. They are iPods that stray
into being Internet tablets and phones.

There is no doubt that iPhone and iPod Touch are great at being iPods, and
do a better job at being iPods than their non-Apple competition. However
(and this is a big however!) other Apple iPods (most notably iPod Classic
160GB) do an even better job at being iPods.

> (And now
> namecalling, apparently, is his way to convince you he's more fair.)

I namecall mindless fanboys like you who deny the truth when it fails to
jive with your beliefs.

It is UTTERLY UNACCEPTABLE that a new-in-box device bricks for no reason
other than installing the recommended software update as part of a
perfectly ordinary setup process.

>> However, a simple Google search, which apparently is beyond the capability
>> of fanboy Mitch in Hawaii, shows that people have been having this problem
>> with iPhone too.
> I didn't claim that no one was having the problem, or that it was with
> just one version of the devices. I suggested it wasn't usual.

Here's a hint to you and all other fanboys: a proper product test includes
letting your most hostile critics at it. If they can break it, doing
something perfectly ordinary, then the product needs to be fixed.

In this case, I didn't get a chance to test it at all before it bricked as
part of following the setup process. Note well that I did not do anything
other than the first-time setup and agree to its suggestion to upgrade the
software.

>> And I have a reproducable script to make any
>> other new-in-box iPod Touch useless using a Macintosh.
> That part is too funny -- as though it would be hard to make almost any
> device (especially those running Windows!) useless with a script.

Yes, it's funny.

It's really funny since the script consists of doing a perfectly ordinary
setup and installation.

Usually, Microsoft gets that right, even though they have trouble doing
such things as complying with published Internet standards.

> Hah! Has Mark decided that Windows isn't the cause of the horrendous
> Windows problems permeating all of business world?

It's better than the horrendous Macintosh problems that existed 20 years
ago. Or perhaps you are too young to remember that there was a time when
Macintosh was far ahead of Windows. There's a reason why it lost that
position, and that reason is far more based upon what Apple did than what
Microsoft did.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Mitch posted:
>> Actually, I think I said you can't rate it's useability and design
>> fairly without giving using it a fair trial.
>
> I bricked two iPod Touch devices in one evening by doing nothing other
> than going through the initial setup with iTunes on a Macintosh
> including agreeing to let iTunes install the latest software.
>
> It was only after the second one (and an unnecessary 50 mile round trip
> to the store) that I thought of trying iTunes on a Windows system; and
> Windows unbricked it.
>
> Apple, at least, is very interested in following up on my report.
> Apple's fanboys just want to silence me.
>
>> I'm not accepting that
>> Mark Crispin could ever compare anything without using it; others might
>> compare features and compare just those usefully. Mark is too motivated
>> to make unfair generalizations, claims, and comparisons.
>
> According to Mitch, it is unfair to point out that:

I'll point out that they have sold millions of these things, and
overall the reaction has been extremely positive.

Steve

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801262303290.21314@pangtzu.p anda.com:

> I bricked two iPod Touch devices in one evening by doing nothing other
> than going through the initial setup with iTunes on a Macintosh
> including agreeing to let iTunes install the latest software.
>
> It was only after the second one (and an unnecessary 50 mile round
> trip to the store) that I thought of trying iTunes on a Windows
> system; and Windows unbricked it.
>
>

Probably the best review on the net. Thanks, Mark. I didn't know about
the capacitive screen, but wondered why they didn't include a stylus like
the N800. This post was very educational. I've stolen it...(c;

Sorry you wasted so much money chasing bricked Apple products.

I bricked my N800 three times playing as root. Fortunately, Nokia figured
I was going to trash it so created the boot loader for Windoze to easily
restore it from scratch. Bricking it isn't dangerous in an open
environment.

Great post.

Steve de Mena <steve@stevedemena.com> wrote in
news:3vmdnUwFnJqlwgHanZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@giganews.com :

> I'll point out that they have sold millions of these things, and
> overall the reaction has been extremely positive.
>
> Steve
>

iPhone buyers are appliance operators buying a WebTV appliance that's
totally restricted and easy-to-use. They outnumber computer geeks by
10,000,000:1 and are very susceptable to the massive iPxxx advertising
empire that made very mediocre, closed system, box office music boxes into
the most popular music sales machine in history. It's a tribute to the
power of propaganda and marketing, not of technology.

iPxxxx, any of them, shows what good propaganda can do and, I'm sure, is
very carefully watched by government propagandists worldwide.

Many of the 500 iPhone-owing geeks are members of these newsgroups. I can
tell that because they know usenet exists, putting them in the top 0.2
percentile of internet users. Most internet users have no idea usenet even
exists.

The effectiveness of the propagandists working for Apple is very apparent,
even to the most naive persons, in the absolute brand loyalty that is seen
here, to the point of being comical....or pathetic, I'm not sure which. If
Apple came out with a laptop that had a keyboard and screen that lit up to
an Apple logo and did nothing else, the loyalists would defend it to their
deaths as the finest computer equipment every created.

Apple doesn't even have to waste money putting in a consumer swappable
battery in its equipment any more. The loyalists think that's a "feature".

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
769E3A.11080027012008@nntp1.usenetserver.com:

> Ah, so you're admitting--finally--that your sainted Nokia N800 is NOT
> easy to use.
>
>

While not a net appliance, like a mac or windoze, it's easier to use than
WinXP. For instance, updating all the installed software, all at once,
is a matter of booting Application Manager, then clicking the Check for
Updates button. The Linux hackers didn't like updating all the
improvements, one at a time, so they developed a .sys file that stay in
the update page. It automates the process even further, just updata the
..sys file and it scripts the update....one click.

Try updating all the software installed in your Win XP box and see what
hell you go through...not just the OS, but all the software installed.

N800 is MUCH easier to use than Win XP. Of course, like a real computer,
one must have certain basic skills of installing (another one button
operation from maemo.org's download database for user programs). If you
take the time to look at maemo.org's download section of freeware, notice
the green down arrow, which sends a .install file the tablet recognizes.
Application Manager boots, downloads the appropriate file catalog from
the authoring website, then downloads the latest software and installs
it, only asking you if you want to do it and warning you it's not Nokia's
fault if it doesn't work because Nokia had nothing to do with it...

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
2BE93F.15050227012008@nntp1.usenetserver.com:

> OK...so what did it take you to get to that point?
>
>

Enough of your trolling. I read the manual....

Mark Crispin wrote:

> . iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N810 ($230 on
> Amazon) which has a miniSD slot expandable to 32GB, has more than
> twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so can be
> tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, has built-in
> GPS, has a keyboard, and is a completely open platform.

Where did you see the N810 on Amazon for $230?

SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in news:479cebb8$0$84163
$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net:

> Mark Crispin wrote:
>
>> . iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N810 ($230 on
>> Amazon) which has a miniSD slot expandable to 32GB, has more than
>> twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so can
be
>> tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, has built-in
>> GPS, has a keyboard, and is a completely open platform.
>
> Where did you see the N810 on Amazon for $230?
>

Good thing this is usenet. If he said that on the net, itself, he might
have created panic!

Er, ah, if you see them for $230, I want one, too!

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, Elmo P. Shagnasty posted:
> Thanks for clarifying that. The N800 and its ilk is for people who like
> to geek around for the sake of geeking around, as opposed to people who
> just want the information so they can go on with their lives.

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

The N800 is certainly rougher around the edges than an iToy; but that does
not equate to being "for people who like to geek around for the sake of
geeking around."

As far as "wanting the information" -- what about wanting to be able to
open and manage IMAP mailboxes with 50,000+ messages? The iToy's mail
tool won't do that. In fact, neither will the N800's mail tool supplied
by Nokia. However, you can do it on the N800 because you're not stuck
with Nokia's mail tool; and you can install Linux mail tools that are
capable of handling large mailboxes.

The N800 is a completely open Linux platform. You can fix what Nokia
breaks or fails to provide. The SDK is free, and most Linux software
builds on it with little or no modification.

Your only choice on the iToy is either tolerate what Apple inflicts, or
jailbreak it and then get screwed on every update. After my experience
with setting up a new, virgin iToy, I wouldn't think of jailbreaking an
iToy.

In terms of the other tools on both N800 and iToy:

The contact manager on both N800 and iToy is nothing to write home about.
iToy's contact manager is a little bit more functional (N800's is mostly
aimed at working with Google Talk and Jabber) but only allows loading
through iTunes and whatever iTunes will synchronize with. If your
contacts are on a PC running Outlook but your media is on a Mac, you have
to break synchronization with one to load from the other. N800 allows
import of CSV files without requiring synchronizaton. iToy's contact
manager doesn't handle name display well at all. Bottom line is that iToy
and N800 both have annoying defects in the contact manager.

N800 doesn't have a Nokia-supplied calendar, so iToy wins with that.

Neither one have a task manager.

The bottom line here is that neither iToy nor N800 are likely to dethrone
Blackberry. Both have significant limitations in their vendor supplied
tools. If iToy had an equivalent screen resolution to N800 and mylo, it
would be a much stronger player. It is doubtful that iToy would ever be
as open a platform as N800 even after the SDK is released (nor, for that
matter, is Sony likely to open up mylo).

mylo is more of a competitor for the N810; it's clearly aimed to be a
cheaper alternative to the N810 but has considerable limitations.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, SMS posted:
> Mark Crispin wrote:
>> . iPhone and iPod Touch are expensive compared to Nokia N810 ($230 on
>> Amazon) which has a miniSD slot expandable to 32GB, has more than
>> twice the screen resolution, has full Bluetooth capability so can be
>> tethered to a Bluetooth cellphone on *any* company, has built-in
>> GPS, has a keyboard, and is a completely open platform.
> Where did you see the N810 on Amazon for $230?

You are correct and that was a typo. It's $420, not $230. $230 is the
N800 price.

IMHO, the N810 is overpriced at $420, especially given the $230 price for
the N800.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271807590.21314@pangtzu.p anda.com:

> The contact manager on both N800 and iToy is nothing to write home
> about. iToy's contact manager is a little bit more functional (N800's
> is mostly aimed at working with Google Talk and Jabber) but only
> allows loading through iTunes and whatever iTunes will synchronize
> with. If your contacts are on a PC running Outlook but your media is
> on a Mac, you have to break synchronization with one to load from the
> other. N800 allows import of CSV files without requiring
> synchronizaton. iToy's contact manager doesn't handle name display
> well at all. Bottom line is that iToy and N800 both have annoying
> defects in the contact manager.
>
> N800 doesn't have a Nokia-supplied calendar, so iToy wins with that.
>
> Neither one have a task manager.
>

I don't know why you boys are so synchronizing with the N800. I never
use the N800 email or contact clients at all! That's why there's
rdesktop ported to the N800, right?

Why run 2 mailboxes and try to figure out where that email went, when
you can run your master computer from anyplace on the planet with
rdesktop on the N800 connected to Remote Desktop on the XP/Vista boxes
at home and have your whole system at your fingertips?!

Except for watching movies in realtime, for which it's too slow due to
upload bandwidth from the cable providers, I can use my email and usenet
clients from anywhere. No need to "sync" like an old Palm III at all.
Let your SERVER do the work...(c;

Besides, rdesktop is loads of fun, wherever you plop the tablet down....

If someone is showing you their Iphone, just boot up rdesktop and
doubleclick on the GOOGLE EARTH icon. You don't HAVE to tell 'em Google
EArth isn't running on the tablet. They can see it is!...(c;

"What operating system does this little Nokia run?"

"Well, you can choose. See if you boot it normally you get Linux. But,
if we push this button, watch it boot Windows XP.", you say trying not
to look too guilty. WinXP's full desktop appears, sans the naked ladies
on your home desktop, and all the icons explode onto the screen like a
booting winXP box. Look on their face? PRICELESS>..(c;

Does MAC OSX support remote desktop access?? I've never tried it to a
MAC.

Mark Crispin <mrc@Washington.EDU> wrote in
news:alpine.OSX.1.00.0801271837080.21314@pangtzu.p anda.com:

> You are correct and that was a typo. It's $420, not $230. $230 is the
> N800 price.
>
>

I guess I'd better call the girl at buy.com back and apologize....(c;

Damn....I wanted one for $230!

The following is my current scorecard of iToy vs. N800.

Cute/fashion statement: iToy
iToy also has packaging suitable for being presented to
Her Majesty The Queen at the Waldorf-Astoria. It makes
me think of those silly mints they leave on your pillow.

Music player: iToy
N800 can play more formats (and you can load lots of
other codecs), but the browser sucks far too much.

Movie player: N800
iToy has a better browser, but the inability to play other
formats (not even QuickTime!) and much video resolution
tips it to N800. Typically, you won't have as many movies
as you will songs, so the browser lossage isn't as much of
an issue.

External Video: iToy
iToy can output composite (NTSC or PAL) or component via
optional $50 cables. Although the cables are overpriced,
they do include a USB AC adapter. N800 doesn't have any
provision for external video at all.

Photo viewing: N800
The browser is still an issue, but photos appear washed
out and grainy on iToy compared to N800. Resolution
counts!!

Audio: N800
N800 has stereo speakers. iPhone just has the one, and
iPod Touch has none at all. Both have earphone jacks,
and both include el cheapo earphones (N800's is also a
microphone) that you'll immediately throw away and replace
with good ones.

Camera: tie (both suck)
N800 and iPhone both have a crummy camera. iPod Touch
has no camera at all. Last year, that camera may have
been alright, but today's crop of mobile phones have
MUCH better cameras.

YouTube: N800
iToy has smoother play while simultaneously loading the
video, but once loaded N800 plays equally smoothly
without the digital video artifacts on iToy (a side by
side comparison is helpful here). Also, the jerkiness on
YouTube playing on N800 is fixed in OS2008.

Other mobile media: N800, but only slightly
N800 supports web radio. N800 (but not N810) also has an
FM radio tuner. Neither N800, nor iToy, has a TV tuner;
I expect that will change in a few years once the dust
settles a bit on mobile digital TV. Japan especially has
numerous models of mobile phones with analog and 1seg
digital TV tuners.

Web browsing: N800
Once again, resolution counts. iToy's 320x480 is simply
inadequate for "the real web", and loss of 10% of the
screen for controls is a bad design bug. I tried the
special iToy web access at Starbucks (I have a preexisting
T-Mobile Wi-Fi account that I've used on the N800). It's
as if they went to special effort to make iToy *less*
usable (you don't get the same screen that you get with
other devices)!

Email: N800, with third-party software
Both vendor-supplied email tools suck, but on N800 you
can install other Linux email tools.

Contacts Manager: iToy
This was a tough call, since iToy's contacts manager isn't
at all good and you can't import contacts (you can only
synchronize through iTunes). But N800's contacts manager,
in spite of allowing import, is worse.

Calendar: iToy, by default
There really isn't any truly great Linux calendar tool.

Text input: N800
N800 gives you the choice of touch, stylus, or Bluetooth
keyboard input. iToy only lets you do touch. N810 also
offers a chiklet keyboard that is quite a bit better than
what you normally see.

Applets: N800
This was a tough call, since iToy has nice stock and
weather applets (basically the same as on Macintosh).
However, N800 has more vendor-supplied applets (including
FM radio and webcast applets) and lots of third party
applets since it's an open platform.

Market support: iToy
No question here. Nokia is simply not at all serious
about marketing N800 or N810 beyond its tiny niche.

CJK support: iToy
I say this with reluctance, since N800 has excellent
CJK support via third-party software. But it is
third-party software. Apple supplies CJK as part of
the base iToy software.

Applications: N800
Standing behind N800 is the entire body of Linux software,
plus a very active development community. If you believe
in Open Source, N800 is the only choice.

Downloading: N800
N800 permits its filesystem to be accessed via USB. iToy
only allows limited USB access and only via iTunes.

Expandability: N800
No question here, due to full Bluetooth, and two SDHC card
slots. N800 uses standard mini USB cables, unlike iToy
where you need a special overpriced cable.

Communications: N800
No question here. N800 has a full Bluetooth profile and
can talk to any Bluetooth mobile phone without lock to a
particular mobile phone provider or technology. You can't
do 3G on an iToy!

Vendor: N800
Once again, no choice. Apple actively attempts to block
people from modifying their iToys; Nokia encourages it
and hosts the community.

Good match for iToy: someone who values media playing above all else (and
doesn't need the storage of iPod Classic 160GB), only accesses email and
the web at remote (= no laptop or desktop at hand) locations for casual
use, and isn't interested in any third-party solutions.

Good match for N800: someone who does more than casual access to email and
web at remote locations, and wants to be able to build and/or install
third-party applications.

Good match for mylo: someone who wants good resolution and a keyboard, but
doesn't want to pay for an N810 and doesn't care about third-party
applications. I think this is a smaller market than either iToy or N800.

Enterprise users are not a good match for either device as they currently
stand. With considerable local development effort, N810 could be made
suitable for enterprise use (these guys really want a keyboard) but it
won't compete well with Blackberry.

Conclusion/observations:

Note that, with better screen resolution and an open platform, iToy would
be a clear winner. Most of the reasons why N800 wins boil down to these
two lacks on iToy.

There is really no reason for such tiny screen resolution on iToy. N800's
screen is only about 1/2 inch longer on the diagonal, yet is 800x480
compared to 320x480 on iToy.

I doubt very much that, even with the promised SDK, that iToy will be an
open platform, and this is iToy's Achilles' Heel. Why shouldn't you be
allowed to use a Bluetooth keyboard for text entry? Why shouldn't the
owner of the device be allowed to modify it to his heart's content?

Apple's obsession with control over their customers (and nickel and
dimeing them to death) ultimately makes their products much less
competitive than they would otherwise be.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.