Cellular Repeaters (in the USA)

In article <[email protected]>, JRW wrote:
> Placing a Nokia 5165 (Cingular) and Nokia 5160 (AT&T) in service
> mode to observe 1dB increments of signal level change increases from
> a baseline of -95 and -97 dB respectively to -88dB to -86dB (an
> average of 6 to 9 db of gain) when I attach the coax connectors to
> the outside array and inside stick.
>
> Clearly the empirical test results contradict what you are stating.
>
> Anyone with $40,000 of test equipment and antenna fabrication shop
> and test facilities can build and calibrate their own system and
> verify my experience.

But you never mentioned at all the results the other way. What's important
is not the direction you mentioned, from the cell to the phone. What's
important is the phone to the cell.

What's the gain in that direction?

How far away from the closet does the signal from the array become
weaker than the signal received "over the air"?

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson [email protected] 972-54-608-069
Icq/AIM Uin: 2661079 MSN IM: [email protected] (Not for email)
Carp are bottom feeders, koi are too, and not surprisingly are ferrets.

---

› See More: Cellular Repeaters (in the USA)

In article <[email protected]>, JRW wrote:
> Placing a Nokia 5165 (Cingular) and Nokia 5160 (AT&T) in service
> mode to observe 1dB increments of signal level change increases from
> a baseline of -95 and -97 dB respectively to -88dB to -86dB (an
> average of 6 to 9 db of gain) when I attach the coax connectors to
> the outside array and inside stick.
>
> Clearly the empirical test results contradict what you are stating.
>
> Anyone with $40,000 of test equipment and antenna fabrication shop
> and test facilities can build and calibrate their own system and
> verify my experience.

But you never mentioned at all the results the other way. What's important
is not the direction you mentioned, from the cell to the phone. What's
important is the phone to the cell.

What's the gain in that direction?

How far away from the closet does the signal from the array become
weaker than the signal received "over the air"?

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson [email protected] 972-54-608-069
Icq/AIM Uin: 2661079 MSN IM: [email protected] (Not for email)
Carp are bottom feeders, koi are too, and not surprisingly are ferrets.

But isn't it sad that anyone has to resort to this to get the service
promised in the advertising?.....(sigh)



Larry W4CSC

Maybe we could get the power grid fixed if every politician
regulating the power companies wasn't on their payrolls.

But isn't it sad that anyone has to resort to this to get the service
promised in the advertising?.....(sigh)



Larry W4CSC

Maybe we could get the power grid fixed if every politician
regulating the power companies wasn't on their payrolls.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> But you never mentioned at all the results the other way.
What's important
> is not the direction you mentioned, from the cell to the
phone. What's
> important is the phone to the cell.
>
> What's the gain in that direction?
>
> How far away from the closet does the signal from the
array become
> weaker than the signal received "over the air"?
>


The path is reciprocal, i.e., the gain in one direction is
the same as the gain in the other.


--
Jeremy S. Nichols, PE
Minneapolis, MN

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> But you never mentioned at all the results the other way.
What's important
> is not the direction you mentioned, from the cell to the
phone. What's
> important is the phone to the cell.
>
> What's the gain in that direction?
>
> How far away from the closet does the signal from the
array become
> weaker than the signal received "over the air"?
>


The path is reciprocal, i.e., the gain in one direction is
the same as the gain in the other.


--
Jeremy S. Nichols, PE
Minneapolis, MN

In article <[email protected]>, JRW wrote:

> Anyone with $40,000 of test equipment and antenna fabrication shop
> and test facilities can build and calibrate their own system and
> verify my experience.
>
> Again...*MY* passive repeater works great.

Wow.

OTOH, the little 3dB center-loaded whips you glue on one side
of a window with the little dipole on the other just _have_ to
be completely useless. I only took one quarter of fields, but
there's just no way...

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! .. Am I in a SOAP
at OPERA??
visi.com

In article <[email protected]>, JRW wrote:

> Anyone with $40,000 of test equipment and antenna fabrication shop
> and test facilities can build and calibrate their own system and
> verify my experience.
>
> Again...*MY* passive repeater works great.

Wow.

OTOH, the little 3dB center-loaded whips you glue on one side
of a window with the little dipole on the other just _have_ to
be completely useless. I only took one quarter of fields, but
there's just no way...

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! .. Am I in a SOAP
at OPERA??
visi.com

x-no-archive:yes

The Wilson & other cellular "repeaters" are fully FCC approved as
consumer devices. If you check the FCC site, even the "consumer
oriented" instruction books are on file with the FCC. Why would the
FCC grant a Type acceptance number to a clearly "illegal" device??
Regulations & meanings can be interpreted many ways, but the
companies selling these items are well aware that their products are
legal to market for consumer use in the USA, & have worked closely
with the FCC to bring them to market.

x-no-archive:yes

The Wilson & other cellular "repeaters" are fully FCC approved as
consumer devices. If you check the FCC site, even the "consumer
oriented" instruction books are on file with the FCC. Why would the
FCC grant a Type acceptance number to a clearly "illegal" device??
Regulations & meanings can be interpreted many ways, but the
companies selling these items are well aware that their products are
legal to market for consumer use in the USA, & have worked closely
with the FCC to bring them to market.

John Navas wrote:
> Cost is in the range of $500-700 for a complete system (outdoor
> antenna, bi-directional amplifier, indoor antenna, and cables,
> not including installation). Typical indoor coverage is in the
> range of 500-1000 sq ft or so, depending on indoor antenna type,
> placement, walls, etc. Units with greater indoor coverage are
> also on the market, but are generally much more expensive.
>
> Be sure to get a system that supports the frequency band you need.

The antenna services company that installs and maintains cell sites
for all the carriers that I do consulting for installs commercial
wireless in-house repeaters and these can run into tens of thousands
of dollars. One site needed indoor coverage for two floors for a
total of over 100,000 square feet in all three bands - cellular,
PCS, and Nextel. Its a broad band transponder so that the more users
at any given time, total gain is reduced. That's similar to amature
radio operators working an OSCAR 2 meter satellite bounce.


Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> But you never mentioned at all the results the other way. What's
> important is not the direction you mentioned, from the cell to
> the phone. What's important is the phone to the cell.
>
> What's the gain in that direction?
>
> How far away from the closet does the signal from the array become
> weaker than the signal received "over the air"?

While the gain is reciprocal in both directions, in actual application
the uplink gain is slightly less due to antenna apeture effects. In my
case, I only need it to cover the first floor in a 2,900 square foot
house - by the time I "get out of range" of the passive repeater, I'd
be outside.


Larry W4CSC wrote:
> But isn't it sad that anyone has to resort to this to get the service
> promised in the advertising?.....(sigh)

LOL....yeah, it does seem pathetic; but this is a case of I have the
resources and time to play around with this stuff. I live outside of
the outer most towers for all the providers. For example, Cingular
spaces their towers every two to three miles in town, but the next
nearest towers of the one 5 miles southwest of me is 15 miles further
east and another 8 miles to the north.

Grant Edwards wrote:
> OTOH, the little 3dB center-loaded whips you glue on one side
> of a window with the little dipole on the other just _have_ to
> be completely useless. I only took one quarter of fields, but
> there's just no way...

Those dinky antennas you're describing and most likely the kind
John Navas was referring to really aren't very effective unless
you have your handest right next to the indoor antenna and have
short run of decent low loss cable. In my mom's house, she looses
signal on her Sprint phone where she uses it the most. Every time
she lays it down next to her computer, it drops the call. I
fabricated a small tray she can slide her handset into that
inductively couples to a 4 turn coil antenna that feeds 15' of
3/8" Heliax to an outside 9 dB gain yagi and she uses a headset
mic and earpiece.

BTW, those microphones you see hanging from the earpiece are so
worthless with the mic so far from your mouth. Best way is to use
a boom mic attached to the headset.

John Navas wrote:
> Cost is in the range of $500-700 for a complete system (outdoor
> antenna, bi-directional amplifier, indoor antenna, and cables,
> not including installation). Typical indoor coverage is in the
> range of 500-1000 sq ft or so, depending on indoor antenna type,
> placement, walls, etc. Units with greater indoor coverage are
> also on the market, but are generally much more expensive.
>
> Be sure to get a system that supports the frequency band you need.

The antenna services company that installs and maintains cell sites
for all the carriers that I do consulting for installs commercial
wireless in-house repeaters and these can run into tens of thousands
of dollars. One site needed indoor coverage for two floors for a
total of over 100,000 square feet in all three bands - cellular,
PCS, and Nextel. Its a broad band transponder so that the more users
at any given time, total gain is reduced. That's similar to amature
radio operators working an OSCAR 2 meter satellite bounce.


Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> But you never mentioned at all the results the other way. What's
> important is not the direction you mentioned, from the cell to
> the phone. What's important is the phone to the cell.
>
> What's the gain in that direction?
>
> How far away from the closet does the signal from the array become
> weaker than the signal received "over the air"?

While the gain is reciprocal in both directions, in actual application
the uplink gain is slightly less due to antenna apeture effects. In my
case, I only need it to cover the first floor in a 2,900 square foot
house - by the time I "get out of range" of the passive repeater, I'd
be outside.


Larry W4CSC wrote:
> But isn't it sad that anyone has to resort to this to get the service
> promised in the advertising?.....(sigh)

LOL....yeah, it does seem pathetic; but this is a case of I have the
resources and time to play around with this stuff. I live outside of
the outer most towers for all the providers. For example, Cingular
spaces their towers every two to three miles in town, but the next
nearest towers of the one 5 miles southwest of me is 15 miles further
east and another 8 miles to the north.

Grant Edwards wrote:
> OTOH, the little 3dB center-loaded whips you glue on one side
> of a window with the little dipole on the other just _have_ to
> be completely useless. I only took one quarter of fields, but
> there's just no way...

Those dinky antennas you're describing and most likely the kind
John Navas was referring to really aren't very effective unless
you have your handest right next to the indoor antenna and have
short run of decent low loss cable. In my mom's house, she looses
signal on her Sprint phone where she uses it the most. Every time
she lays it down next to her computer, it drops the call. I
fabricated a small tray she can slide her handset into that
inductively couples to a 4 turn coil antenna that feeds 15' of
3/8" Heliax to an outside 9 dB gain yagi and she uses a headset
mic and earpiece.

BTW, those microphones you see hanging from the earpiece are so
worthless with the mic so far from your mouth. Best way is to use
a boom mic attached to the headset.

How safe are those indor antennas?

John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in article
<[email protected]>:
> If you can get a usable cellular signal outside your building, but not inside
> your building, a "cellular repeater" (sometimes called a "cellular booster")
> may be able to solve the indoor coverage problem.
>
> * Andrew Corporation (EAC-50 Repeater Kit, Model ASPM1850-50,
> <http://www.antenna.com/repeaters/eac50_pcs.html>, 440-349-8647)
> (Andrew is a near billion dollar S&P500 communications company.)
>
> * CellAntenna Corporation (CAE50 SOHO Repeater Package,
> <http://www.cellantenna.com/repeater/CAE50new.htm>, 877-998-2628)
>
> * Wilson Electronics (BD800AM-B / BD800AM-B50,
> <http://www.wilsonelectronics.com/amps/wcamps.htm>, 800-204-4104)
>
> These companies have all assured me that their bidirectional amps are FCC
> Approved/Type Accepted. I called the FCC, and was assured by a spokesperson
> at the Commercial Wireless Division that the FCC does not regulate the use of
> these FCC Type Accepted devices, and thus no license is required to install
> and operate them. (If you created interference, you would be obligated to
> correct it.)
>
> Cost is in the range of $500-700 for a complete system (outdoor antenna,
> bi-directional amplifier, indoor antenna, and cables, not including
> installation). Typical indoor coverage is in the range of 500-1000 sq ft or
> so, depending on indoor antenna type, placement, walls, etc. Units with
> greater indoor coverage are also on the market, but are generally much more
> expensive.
>
> Be sure to get a system that supports the frequency band you need.
>
> So-called "passive repeaters" do not work.
>
> A less expensive alternative that can work is an external antenna that
> connects to your cellular phone with a cable.
>
> --
> Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
> John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[posted via phonescoop.com - free web access to the alt.cellular groups]

How safe are those indor antennas?

John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in article
<[email protected]>:
> If you can get a usable cellular signal outside your building, but not inside
> your building, a "cellular repeater" (sometimes called a "cellular booster")
> may be able to solve the indoor coverage problem.
>
> * Andrew Corporation (EAC-50 Repeater Kit, Model ASPM1850-50,
> <http://www.antenna.com/repeaters/eac50_pcs.html>, 440-349-8647)
> (Andrew is a near billion dollar S&P500 communications company.)
>
> * CellAntenna Corporation (CAE50 SOHO Repeater Package,
> <http://www.cellantenna.com/repeater/CAE50new.htm>, 877-998-2628)
>
> * Wilson Electronics (BD800AM-B / BD800AM-B50,
> <http://www.wilsonelectronics.com/amps/wcamps.htm>, 800-204-4104)
>
> These companies have all assured me that their bidirectional amps are FCC
> Approved/Type Accepted. I called the FCC, and was assured by a spokesperson
> at the Commercial Wireless Division that the FCC does not regulate the use of
> these FCC Type Accepted devices, and thus no license is required to install
> and operate them. (If you created interference, you would be obligated to
> correct it.)
>
> Cost is in the range of $500-700 for a complete system (outdoor antenna,
> bi-directional amplifier, indoor antenna, and cables, not including
> installation). Typical indoor coverage is in the range of 500-1000 sq ft or
> so, depending on indoor antenna type, placement, walls, etc. Units with
> greater indoor coverage are also on the market, but are generally much more
> expensive.
>
> Be sure to get a system that supports the frequency band you need.
>
> So-called "passive repeaters" do not work.
>
> A less expensive alternative that can work is an external antenna that
> connects to your cellular phone with a cable.
>
> --
> Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
> John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[posted via phonescoop.com - free web access to the alt.cellular groups]

Bob Barker wrote:
> How safe are those indor antennas?

Those indoor dipole antennas are actually dual-mode
devices that can be used as radio antennas or hotdog
cookers. Aim the outside Yagi high gain antenna at
your microwave oven and it will cook the hotdogs.