Oxygen Licence "agreement" potentially breeches UK & EU law.

Hi all,
I found the following bit of law.

"Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 94 (SI 1994 No 3159) "

Which basically says:-
"Section 6 of the UTCC Regulations, which provides that the seller or
supplier must ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in
plain, intelligible language and that if there is doubt about the meaning of
a written term, the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall
prevail"

Now, apply this to the license agreement, which (when I purchased) said
"includes upgrade & support"

Oxygen contend that supplying license keys is "support" but, as their
software & literature
states that the supply of license keys is automated. Indeed, they use the
term "robot". The supply
of keys is therefore not support.

Secondly, Oxygen have, in this NG, admitted that the license is not clear,
and have agreed to amend it.

I conclude that the original license was NOT plain & intelligible,
(obviously, or we would not be having this dispute)
AND "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall prevail" means
that Oxygen are in the wrong, and should
supply me with the key I require.

Well Oleg?

---

› See More: Oxygen Licence "agreement" potentially breeches UK & EU law.

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Methinks you ought to see your solicitor. I hope you are correct, as
I hate scammers. All my software is licensed in perpetuity, only the
support is annual and optional.

Tym

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"Dolphin Boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all,
> I found the following bit of law.
>
> "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 94 (SI 1994 No 3159)
> "
>
> Which basically says:-
> "Section 6 of the UTCC Regulations, which provides that the seller
> or supplier must ensure that any written term of a contract is
> expressed in plain, intelligible language and that if there is
> doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation most
> favourable to the consumer shall prevail"
>
> Now, apply this to the license agreement, which (when I purchased)
> said "includes upgrade & support"
>
> Oxygen contend that supplying license keys is "support" but, as
> their software & literature
> states that the supply of license keys is automated. Indeed, they
> use the term "robot". The supply
> of keys is therefore not support.
>
> Secondly, Oxygen have, in this NG, admitted that the license is not
> clear, and have agreed to amend it.
>
> I conclude that the original license was NOT plain & intelligible,
> (obviously, or we would not be having this dispute)
> AND "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall
> prevail" means that Oxygen are in the wrong, and should
> supply me with the key I require.
>
> Well Oleg?
>
>

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"Dolphin Boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all,
> I found the following bit of law.
>
> "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 94 (SI 1994 No 3159) "
>
> Which basically says:-
> "Section 6 of the UTCC Regulations, which provides that the seller or
> supplier must ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in
> plain, intelligible language and that if there is doubt about the meaning
of
> a written term, the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall
> prevail"
>
> Now, apply this to the license agreement, which (when I purchased) said
> "includes upgrade & support"
>
> Oxygen contend that supplying license keys is "support" but, as their
> software & literature
> states that the supply of license keys is automated. Indeed, they use the
> term "robot". The supply
> of keys is therefore not support.
>
> Secondly, Oxygen have, in this NG, admitted that the license is not clear,
> and have agreed to amend it.
>
> I conclude that the original license was NOT plain & intelligible,
> (obviously, or we would not be having this dispute)
> AND "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall prevail"
means
> that Oxygen are in the wrong, and should
> supply me with the key I require.

Very nice, but I would imagine that Oxygen's licence would have to be
covered under Russian law, not UK (i.e. The market it is sold in).

--
>>> Unlock Your Phones Potential <<<
>>> http://www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> http://www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<

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If they sell here, directly or indirectly, then that sale is subject
to our laws

- --
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"Richard Colton" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> "Dolphin Boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi all,
> > I found the following bit of law.
> >
> > "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 94 (SI 1994 No
> > 3159) "
> >
> > Which basically says:-
> > "Section 6 of the UTCC Regulations, which provides that the
> > seller or supplier must ensure that any written term of a
> > contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language and that if
> > there is doubt about the meaning
> of
> > a written term, the interpretation most favourable to the
> > consumer shall prevail"
> >
> > Now, apply this to the license agreement, which (when I
> > purchased) said "includes upgrade & support"
> >
> > Oxygen contend that supplying license keys is "support" but, as
> > their software & literature
> > states that the supply of license keys is automated. Indeed, they
> > use the term "robot". The supply
> > of keys is therefore not support.
> >
> > Secondly, Oxygen have, in this NG, admitted that the license is
> > not clear, and have agreed to amend it.
> >
> > I conclude that the original license was NOT plain &
> > intelligible, (obviously, or we would not be having this dispute)
> > AND "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall
> > prevail"
> means
> > that Oxygen are in the wrong, and should
> > supply me with the key I require.
>
> Very nice, but I would imagine that Oxygen's licence would have to
> be covered under Russian law, not UK (i.e. The market it is sold
> in).
>
> --
> >>> Unlock Your Phones Potential <<<
> >>> http://www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
> >>> http://www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>

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"Tym" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
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>
> If they sell here, directly or indirectly, then that sale is subject
> to our laws

And that's the whole point - it's not sold here. When you purchase it, you
are purchasing it from Oxygen - in Russia.

I'm not defending (or knocking) Oxygen, or their licence - that's a matter
between you and them - just pointing out a problem with applying UK law to
international purchases.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phones Potential <<<
>>> http://www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> http://www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:35:49 GMT, "Richard Colton"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Tym" <[email protected]> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>>
>> If they sell here, directly or indirectly, then that sale is subject
>> to our laws
>
>And that's the whole point - it's not sold here. When you purchase it, you
>are purchasing it from Oxygen - in Russia.
>
>I'm not defending (or knocking) Oxygen, or their licence - that's a matter
>between you and them - just pointing out a problem with applying UK law to
>international purchases.

I've noticed recently that a lot of purchases I make from countries
outside the EU are having VAT added to them. I bought some software
via the internet from a supplier in the USA last week and paid for it
via Regsoft. Regsoft picked up the fact that my credit card/billing
address was in Europe and added 17.5% VAT to the total.

I'm not sure how the authorities are doing it, but somehow they're
enforcing EU rules on overseas companies who supply goods to people
located in the EU.

Chris

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"Chris Blunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >And that's the whole point - it's not sold here. When you
> >purchase it, you are purchasing it from Oxygen - in Russia.
> >I'm not defending (or knocking) Oxygen, or their licence - that's
> >a matter between you and them - just pointing out a problem with
> >applying UK law to international purchases.
> I've noticed recently that a lot of purchases I make from countries
> outside the EU are having VAT added to them. I bought some software
> via the internet from a supplier in the USA last week and paid for
> it via Regsoft. Regsoft picked up the fact that my credit
> card/billing address was in Europe and added 17.5% VAT to the
> total.
> I'm not sure how the authorities are doing it, but somehow they're
> enforcing EU rules on overseas companies who supply goods to people
> located in the EU.

Or just looking for a way to bump the price up!


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
See http://www.ictis.net/no_spam.html for warnings regarding
unsolicited email to addresses at this domain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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>Subject: Re: Oxygen Licence "agreement" potentially breeches UK & EU law.
>From: "Richard Colton" [email protected]
>Date: 23/09/03 14:35 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>"Tym" <[email protected]> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> If they sell here, directly or indirectly, then that sale is subject
>> to our laws
>
>And that's the whole point - it's not sold here. When you purchase it, you
>are purchasing it from Oxygen - in Russia.
>
>I'm not defending (or knocking) Oxygen, or their licence - that's a matter
>between you and them - just pointing out a problem with applying UK law to
>international purchases.
>
>--

Unfortunately that is not really the case. If you purchase in the UK you are
bringing it into the EU and the UK and ALL purchase imported or otherwise MUST
abide by these terms otherwise it is deemed illegal.

However, trying to get anywhere is a completely different mater!!!! Expensive
and in the end will be completely useless!

Best just advising others of your bad experiences :-))))

Ally Strachan
MOBILE SPARES - www.mobilespares.co.uk
Mobile phone spares, parts, accessories, unlocking, LEDs
[email protected] (remove NOSPAM to email)
DO NOT REPLY TO THE AOL EMAIL PLEASE

>
> Unfortunately that is not really the case. If you purchase in the UK you
are
> bringing it into the EU and the UK and ALL purchase imported or otherwise
MUST
> abide by these terms otherwise it is deemed illegal.
>
> However, trying to get anywhere is a completely different mater!!!!
Expensive
> and in the end will be completely useless!
>
> Best just advising others of your bad experiences :-))))
>

Yeah, technically the sale is covered by our laws, but it'd be a bugger to
enforce . As always the power of negative publicity is the best way to
fix the problem; if the practice causes the product to not sell so well then
it'll get amended quick enough to make more money !

I notice Oxygen Software are unusually quiet in this thread, I think they're
fed up of it all.

"G" <cool_and_funky@*-nospamthanks_*yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Unfortunately that is not really the case. If you purchase in the UK you
> are
> > bringing it into the EU and the UK and ALL purchase imported or
otherwise
> MUST
> > abide by these terms otherwise it is deemed illegal.
> >
> > However, trying to get anywhere is a completely different mater!!!!
> Expensive
> > and in the end will be completely useless!
> >
> > Best just advising others of your bad experiences :-))))
> >
>
> Yeah, technically the sale is covered by our laws, but it'd be a bugger to
> enforce . As always the power of negative publicity is the best way to
> fix the problem; if the practice causes the product to not sell so well
then
> it'll get amended quick enough to make more money !
>
> I notice Oxygen Software are unusually quiet in this thread, I think
they're
> fed up of it all.

Well, I'm using the power of negative publicity, but trying to combine it
with new & interesting arguments ;-)

Hello, Dolphin!
You wrote on Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:42:29 +0100:

DB> I conclude that the original license was NOT plain & intelligible,
DB> (obviously, or we would not be having this dispute)
DB> AND "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall
DB> prevail" means that Oxygen are in the wrong, and should supply me
DB> with the key I require.

DB> Well Oleg?

It's too late. We'll never come to meet you and you know why.

Best regards, Oleg Fyodorov.
Oxygen Software - tools for your Nokia.
Oxygen Phone Manager II - all you want from your Nokia.
[email protected]
http://www.oxygensoftware.com
http://www.oxygensoftware.co.uk

"Oxygen Software" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, Dolphin!
> You wrote on Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:42:29 +0100:
>
> DB> I conclude that the original license was NOT plain &
intelligible,
> DB> (obviously, or we would not be having this dispute)
> DB> AND "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall
> DB> prevail" means that Oxygen are in the wrong, and should supply
me
> DB> with the key I require.
>
> DB> Well Oleg?
>
> It's too late. We'll never come to meet you and you know why.
>
> Best regards, Oleg Fyodorov.

I don't understand. You're in breech of UK & EU law, I'm asking you to
remedy this.
Why is it too late to obey the laws of the countries you are selling
into?
Is it "too late" because I warn people about your license terms? You
thank me for
doing this often enough!

Xref: news.newshosting.com alt.cellular.nokia:139301

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Dolphin Boy wrote:
> I don't understand. You're in breech of UK & EU law, I'm asking you to
> remedy this.
> Why is it too late to obey the laws of the countries you are selling
> into?

I still don't get how people are getting the notion that they can buy
something from a foreign country and apply local legislation to the
purchase. Based on that assumption I have a 14 day right to just send my
purchased goods back to the seller on all online purchases, for a full
monetary return with no questions asked. If they fail to send me a legal
notice of said rights along with the merchandise those 14 days are
increased by a considerable amount (I'm too lazy to look up the exact
increase). That's a local law. I'd be pretty stupid if I assumed it applied
when buying goods from any other country. I seriously doubt UK/EU law is
any different. It has no juristiction over anywhere except the UK/EU and if
you choose to purchase from elsewhere you are willingly giving up the
rights granted you by your local legislation. Expecting every other country
on the planet to know and obey every local law of every other country on
the planet is utterly ridiculous.

(This is not a commentary on Oxygen's licensing habits, just the issue of
expecting them to obey UK/EU consumer protecetion laws)


- --
Frode

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"Frode" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
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>
> Dolphin Boy wrote:
> > I don't understand. You're in breech of UK & EU law, I'm asking
you to
> > remedy this.
> > Why is it too late to obey the laws of the countries you are
selling
> > into?
>
> I still don't get how people are getting the notion that they can
buy
> something from a foreign country and apply local legislation to the
> purchase. Based on that assumption I have a 14 day right to just
send my
> purchased goods back to the seller on all online purchases, for a
full
> monetary return with no questions asked. If they fail to send me a
legal
> notice of said rights along with the merchandise those 14 days are
> increased by a considerable amount (I'm too lazy to look up the
exact
> increase). That's a local law. I'd be pretty stupid if I assumed it
applied
> when buying goods from any other country. I seriously doubt UK/EU
law is
> any different. It has no juristiction over anywhere except the UK/EU
and if
> you choose to purchase from elsewhere you are willingly giving up
the
> rights granted you by your local legislation. Expecting every other
country
> on the planet to know and obey every local law of every other
country on
> the planet is utterly ridiculous.
>
> (This is not a commentary on Oxygen's licensing habits, just the
issue of
> expecting them to obey UK/EU consumer protecetion laws)
>
>
> - --
> Frode
>
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>
Agree with all that Frode, old son, but the basic principle still
applies.
Oxygen are using business practices that upset others to the point
that
laws are passed against them.

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Dolphin Boy wrote:

> Agree with all that Frode, old son, but the basic principle still
> applies.
> Oxygen are using business practices that upset others to the point
> that laws are passed against them.

I've already agreed, in principle, that this licensing system isn't exactly
a great thing. So no argument from me. However, since they operate out of
russia, the only sanction anybody here can "threaten" with is simply to not
buy the product. Or, in some cases (countries), buy the product then quite
legally remove the protection in order to keep using it if buying a new
phone supported by the latest version of O2 you were entitled to upgrade
to.


- --
Frode

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