Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1HwGe.6324$p%[email protected]...
> Configuring the available timeslots in pairs, Extended Range GSM
> gives 72 km usable range, but lacks GPRS capability, and halves the
> number of concurrent calls possible. Using more sensitive BTS
> receivers, Enhanced Extended Range GSM been demonstrated to be usable
> at 120 km (with the same drawbacks as ER).

True but analog does not have GPRS either.

> Within these limits, usable range will depend of BTS design and
> power, antenna orientation, elevation, topography (obstructions), and
> many other factors (including the moisture content of any intervening
> foliage).

Right, we are talking the same limitations as analog at 50 miles. More or
less, it works from a hilltop. In the places they mentioned in the article
(e.g. S. Dakota) foliage absorption is not a big issue. We're talking about
the rural West, not northern Maine. Of course, one issue is how to make an
antenna high gain at both 850 and 1900 MHz, but that can be limited to
high-gain at 850 MHz and working reasonably well at 1900.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

---

› See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

"Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> All that is lacking is higher power
> car phones with good external antennas.

You boys are describing the old IMTS "Carphones".....
Rotary-dialled narrow-band FM radio with the simplest of interfaces in the
trunk running 10, 25, 50 watts on 152 Mhz, which is MUCH farther ranged in
the trees of the countryside than 800 or 1900 could ever offer. Search
Google for IMTS Carphones and check it out.

To alert us when we had a call, the phone in the car blew the car horn
about the same "ringing" sequence as a regular telephone. (Don't forget to
turn it off at night..(c;...it'll suck a car battery dead in a couple of
hours, anyway, even if you don't transmit. It's tubes!)

These powerful Carphones and the tall-towered VHF terminal equipment they
connected to had ranges in the countryside of 20-50 miles...or to the side
of the next mountain, if they weren't mountaintop located. You could drive
for hours and never have to change towers...er, ah....if you could afford
the $4.50/minute..(c; The price kept the very few channels the FCC made
available to them from being cluttered with idle chitchat...

I can't believe there are actually websites CAPTURING what we say on
cellular newsgroups and posting them all for years! I found a lot of my
own postings looking for IMTS phones for sale!...(c;

--
Larry

While 3W is probably still legal output for an analog phone, I don't
know if 2W is legal for a CDMA cellular phone. 0.2W is the maximum
legal output for a CDMA PCS phone

Joseph Huber wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:53:11 -0500, "Donald Newcomb" wrote:
>
>
>>became a 3-watt digital TDMA phone. Boosters of this sort are still
>>available but AFAIK they are all marked "For export only." (not FCC type
>>accepted)
>
>
> www.digitalantenna.com and www.wilsoncellular.com both sell FCC-type
> accepted (when used with an appropriate antenna) amplifiers and
> repeaters. I travel to the "boonies", and have an amplifier that
> works for AMPS (3 W) and CDMA (2 W). It does work wonders for AMPS.
> I think it helps some for CDMA, but CDMA might have some inherent
> distance limitations. One of the technical folks here can probably
> speak to that.
>
> Joe Huber
> [email protected]

In <[email protected]> "Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> writes:
[ ... ]
>> Mostly, but not completely correct... While a better antenna [a] and
>> a bit mor epower are the key issues, there's also a physical
>> distance limit due to timing slot concerns.
>>
>> I don't recall the exact numbers, but 20 km as a maximum range
>> comes to mind.

>35 km for regular vanilla GSM. Extended range is available (at a cost). No
>limit I know of for CDMA or TDMA.

I've got one spot in the (extended) NYC area where this an isse,
and I'd guess there are similar ones (see below).

There are ferries that travel from Long Island (east of NYC)
across Long Island Sound up to Connecticut. I made it a point
of walking around on the upper level - which gave me line
of sight to structures on the shore, and probably towers,
alomst the entire length.

For roughly the middle third of the trip the phone's display,
for whatever that's worth... showed numerous bars of
signal strength. But if I tried making a call it either
didn't succeed or I got that famous "underwater" audio
clipping and mangling.

I'd guess there are similar issues on te Great Lakes,
where coverage would be pretty useful.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
[email protected]
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

"Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > All that is lacking is higher power
> > car phones with good external antennas.
>
> You boys are describing the old IMTS "Carphones".....
> Rotary-dialled narrow-band FM radio with the simplest of interfaces in the
> trunk running 10, 25, 50 watts on 152 Mhz, which is MUCH farther ranged in
> the trees of the countryside than 800 or 1900 could ever offer. Search
> Google for IMTS Carphones and check it out.

I don't think anyone is asking to bring back IMTS (which I do remember quite
well). That was a completely different service from AMPS cellular. Folks
just want a cellular system that will duplicate the coverage of the AMPS
system they already had.

Another possible solution would be a good satellite roaming system, similar
to ACeS in East Asia. This is how Globalstar was supposed to work but it
never really worked that way. Anyone dumb enough to try to activate the
cellular side of a North American Globalstar phone will find himself trying
to set up an 800 MHz only account on an old analog rate plan. You end up
with two accounts, as though it were dual NAM. One account is the satellite
side and the other is is the cellular side; they have different phone
numbers and you have to switch manually between them. It end up being much
easier to have two phones: one cellular, the other satellite. ACeS and
Thuraya phones will switch automatically between cellular (GSM 900) and
their respective satellite systems.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:10:47 GMT, Jerome Zelinske wrote:

> While 3W is probably still legal output for an analog phone, I don't
>know if 2W is legal for a CDMA cellular phone. 0.2W is the maximum
>legal output for a CDMA PCS phone

Why do you suppose that the amplifiers would be FCC type accepted for
CDMA with illegal output? I suppose it's possible, albiet unlikely...

Joe Huber
[email protected]

"danny burstein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'd guess there are similar issues on te Great Lakes,
> where coverage would be pretty useful.

Once upon a time I was in the Mediterranean, working on and off the coast of
Italy. I had a little 4-element, 900 MHz Yagi to help and had all sorts of
"bars" but as soon as we hit 18 nm off the coast it was like a brick wall.
All the bars in the world didn't help. Needless to say, they didn't have ER
GSM.

Petrocom has set up a GSM-850 network in the northen Gulf of Mexico. I don't
know if they are using ER or not.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

>In <[email protected]> "Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> writes:
> [ ... ]
>>> Mostly, but not completely correct... While a better antenna [a] and
>>> a bit mor epower are the key issues, there's also a physical
>>> distance limit due to timing slot concerns.
>>>
>>> I don't recall the exact numbers, but 20 km as a maximum range
>>> comes to mind.
>
>>35 km for regular vanilla GSM. Extended range is available (at a cost). No
>>limit I know of for CDMA or TDMA.

I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.

--
Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
[email protected] | rich writing software."
Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980

Jerome Zelinske wrote:
> I doubt the manufacturers will start
> making analog phones again

What do you mean by "again"?
If you buy any current Sprint phone that is priced above bargain basement,
it will be Dual-Band/Tri-Mode, which includes fallback to analog if their
is no digital signal.

--
John Richards

"John Richards" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jerome Zelinske wrote:
> > I doubt the manufacturers will start
> > making analog phones again
>
> What do you mean by "again"?
> If you buy any current Sprint phone that is priced above bargain basement,
> it will be Dual-Band/Tri-Mode, which includes fallback to analog if their
> is no digital signal.
>
> --
> John Richards

True John, but those aren't 3W phones...

Bob

In message <[email protected]> "Donald Newcomb"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"danny burstein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In <[email protected]> "Donald Newcomb"
><[email protected]> writes:
>> Mostly, but not completely correct... While a better antenna [a] and
>> a bit mor epower are the key issues, there's also a physical
>> distance limit due to timing slot concerns.
>>
>> I don't recall the exact numbers, but 20 km as a maximum range
>> comes to mind.
>
>35 km for regular vanilla GSM. Extended range is available (at a cost). No
>limit I know of for CDMA or TDMA.

The ~35KM limit applies to all TDMA-based technologies, including what
is commonly known as "TDMA" in Canada and the US, as well as GSM and
iDEN.

--
I don't approve of political jokes...
I've seen too many of them get elected.

"DevilsPGD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The ~35KM limit applies to all TDMA-based technologies, including what
> is commonly known as "TDMA" in Canada and the US, as well as GSM and
> iDEN.

Why?

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

"jfitz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> "Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The problem is really not one of analog vs. digital but rather very low
>> power & no antenna vs. high power & good antenna. The only reason that
>> this
>> problem exists is that the wireless carriers only care about the 99% who
>> live and work in cities & towns (where the wireless executives live and
>> work) and could care less about folks who live and work in the boonies.
>
> So the "99%" should subsidize the tremendous cost of building cell towers
> for those who have CHOSEN to live in the boonies?
>

AND for those who frequently travel into the boonies.

Donald Newcomb wrote:
> "DevilsPGD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> The ~35KM limit applies to all TDMA-based technologies,
>> including what is commonly known as "TDMA" in Canada and
>> the US, as well as GSM and iDEN.
>
> Why?

Timing. Propagation delay over that distance gets too large.

-Quick

"Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Another possible solution would be a good satellite roaming system,

I have boater friends on Iridium, the failed satcom company the military
saved. $1.50/min from any point on the planet with polar LEOs, I think.
Seems to work fine. When Iridium went bankrupt, but before the govt save,
I bought one for $25, just as a souvenir. I have all the toys with it, but
won't be putting it online. It works fine outside, but, of course, is
pretty useless inside as the satellite signal is just too weak from 200
miles away at Zenith.



--
Larry