Sprint <-> Nextel M2M silliness

Tinman wrote:


> But you switched to Verizon, right? (Never read that group.) If so,
> what's the point in hanging around Sprint and Cingular NGs, particularly
> if you post contradicting opinions in both?


The opinions don't contradict at all. Indeed Sprint HAS looked at the
mess that Cingular made and didn't make the same mistakes. Kudos to
them for that. However, Sprint DID make a WHOPPING mistake by ignoring
their affiliates, and now it's biting them in the arse.

Cingular's issues:

- MASSIVE dropping of the ball in customer service
- Creating a Blue network "second class" citizenry, to enitce people to
upgrade
- Not informing customers of network migration progress, leaving people
with tdma phones to one day have service, and then no service the next
- Repeated billing errors ad nauseum that they are unwilling or unable
to fix.
- the list goes on and on.

Sprint has done none of the above, to their credit. BUT, they HAVE done
the following:

- Lack of clarity to customers before and after the merger about affiliates
- Opaqueness over what countes as m2m and what doesn't
- You still can't bundle Nextel and Sprint phones on the same account
- Leaving themselves an unknown and uncertain (but probably Ma$$ive)
financial liability by not negotiating the cost of acquiring partners
before they closed the merger.
- Touting a lot of added features in their new plans, but raising the
costs to get them.

And besides Tinman, I'm free to visit as many newsgroups as I please,
just as much as you are. My experiences, good AND bad, with multiple
carriers in my search for a a simple goal (service at my house, which
Sprint offered for a while, then suddenly one day didn't), can provide
valuable insight for people who may be having similar exeriences, or
want to know before they buy.

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---

› See More: Sprint <-> Nextel M2M silliness

Isaiah Beard wrote:
> Tinman wrote:
>
>
>> But you switched to Verizon, right? (Never read that group.) If so,
>> what's the point in hanging around Sprint and Cingular NGs,
>> particularly if you post contradicting opinions in both?
>
>

<Navas mode on>

> The opinions don't contradict at all.

Rubbish.


> Indeed Sprint HAS looked at the
> mess that Cingular made

Citation please.


> and didn't make the same mistakes. Kudos to
> them for that. However, Sprint DID make a WHOPPING mistake by
> ignoring their affiliates, and now it's biting them in the arse.
>

And you left this out of your post on Cingular, why?


> Cingular's issues:
>

Not. My. Carrier.


>
> Sprint has done none of the above, to their credit. BUT, they HAVE
> done the following:
>
> - Lack of clarity to customers before and after the merger about
> affiliates

I'm in an affiliate market and have no issues (and was just given
another retention deal). What do I need clarified?


> - Opaqueness over what countes as m2m and what doesn't

I don't see a huge outcry. Do have a citation, besides this thread, that
refers to this as a major issue--or even an "opaque" issue? I couldn't
call Nextel phones via M2M before the merger. If I can now I consider it
a pretty nice bonus--a bonus I never was promised when I signed up with
SPCS.


> - You still can't bundle Nextel and Sprint phones on the same account

Is that why you dropped them? How many people have? Why didn't you
include this deal-breaker in your, obviously complimentary, post over on
the Cingular NG?


> - Leaving themselves an unknown and uncertain (but probably Ma$$ive)
> financial liability by not negotiating the cost of acquiring partners
> before they closed the merger.

IMO, those partners ability to negotiate is going to evaporate mighty
quickly. What are they gonna do, start selling iDEN service without the
Nextel brand, and with uncertain spectrum? Good luck.


> - Touting a lot of added features in their new plans, but raising the
> costs to get them.
>

Without specifics, this point is meaningless. Please list the touted
"added features." And "a lot" is not a few--so make it a long list (with
the pre and post prices for comparison).


> And besides Tinman, I'm free to visit as many newsgroups as I please,

Yes you are. And you were indeed a valuable contrubitor here; and
perhaps will continue to be. But as for me, if and when I switch from
SPCS I seriously doubt I will continue to post here. But you're right,
you are free to post here. I guess I could say the same about Phillipe.
<g>


> just as much as you are. My experiences, good AND bad, with multiple
> carriers in my search for a a simple goal (service at my house, which
> Sprint offered for a while, then suddenly one day didn't), can provide
> valuable insight for people who may be having similar exeriences, or
> want to know before they buy.

So your technique to help people find service at their house is to
criticize mergers? OK.

BTW, I don't care if you post here or not. While I realize your opinion
differs, I found your post in this thread inconsistent with your post in
Cingular's NG. You ain't gonna change my opinion, and I seriously doubt
I'll change yours. That doesn't mean we won't be in agreement in a
subsequent thread, however.


--
Mike

"Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob Smith wrote:
>
>> What problems Steve? SPCS has already said they will be maintaining the
>> Iden network till 2010, till they can get all their Nextel customers
>> moved over to CDMA. I'm not seeing or hearing about any problems right
>> now, save for those occasional CS issues.
>
> I expect to see some CS issues. Maybe some capacity issues too. Nothing
> major.

Key word here Steve is your usage of "expect", as if it's going to be a
future problem, not one happening right now.

Bob

Tinman wrote:

> <Navas mode on>

You may as well as call it troll mode. Welp, to the killfie with ya!

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Isaiah Beard wrote:
> Tinman wrote:
>
>> <Navas mode on>
>
> You may as well as call it troll mode. Welp, to the killfie with ya!

Since you won't be reading this, Isaiah-the-weak-of-mind, please go ****
yourself. I can ignore any post or person I so desire without the need
for--oh my gawd--the dreaded kill-filter. My personal favorite are the
idiots who claim to "kill-filter" someone, only to respond via someone
else's quoted reply. Talk about weak-minded.

I wonder how you handle the real world. I mean, without a help-me-mommy
kill-filter, however do you make it past the strip clubs and adult
bookstores? What about pesky neighbors? Do you tape your windows so you
can't see their house? Special glasses that filter the objectionable? Oh
the torment...

See ya' in your next post Isaiah!

[email protected]
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"Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Sprint has done none of the above, to their credit. BUT, they HAVE done
> the following:
>
> - Lack of clarity to customers before and after the merger about
> affiliates

I don't see this as a customer isuue, as I'm unaware of any change in
service for affiliate customers.

> - Opaqueness over what countes as m2m and what doesn't

Actually, its very clear- m2m between Sprint and Nextel phones. Partners is
not Nextel.

> - You still can't bundle Nextel and Sprint phones on the same account

Of course not- they are still running two seperate billing platforms. Any
expectation of that changing any time soon would be extremely short sighted.
And running the same account on two different billing systems would be even
worse. This is one area where more time is a good thing.

> - Leaving themselves an unknown and uncertain (but probably Ma$$ive)
> financial liability by not negotiating the cost of acquiring partners
> before they closed the merger.

Not massive- this is a publicly traded company with just over 2 million
subscribers, limited infrastructure and customer base in secondary markets
and very little market appeal of their own. The cost was probably well
calculated and its not like the price would be double that os a similarly
sized carrier.

> - Touting a lot of added features in their new plans, but raising the
> costs to get them.

Nobody is chopping prices right now, and most of the competition has done
the same price raising. The features being offered by Sprint are probably
the best of the big carriers.

>

Bob Smith wrote:

> Key word here Steve is your usage of "expect", as if it's going to be a
> future problem, not one happening right now.

Let me quote my prior post:

"Nextel wins too, long-term. I think the short-term is where we'll see the
problems crop up."

That does imply that there may not be any current problems but that I expect
to see some short-term problems down the road.

--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: [email protected] Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307

"Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob Smith wrote:
>
>> Key word here Steve is your usage of "expect", as if it's going to be a
>> future problem, not one happening right now.
>
> Let me quote my prior post:
>
> "Nextel wins too, long-term. I think the short-term is where we'll see the
> problems crop up."
>
> That does imply that there may not be any current problems but that I
> expect to see some short-term problems down the road.

No need to requote your post Steve ... as you just agreed with me ...

Bob

Scott wrote:

> I don't see this as a customer isuue, as I'm unaware of any change in
> service for affiliate customers.

Have you tried looking at a coverage map lately for an affiliate market
off the website, or attempted to look at service plans or phones for
that matter? All of this is on a separate interface, with outdated
coverage maps and different plan pricing. And there was a three week
period where none of the affiliate info was available at all.


>>- Opaqueness over what countes as m2m and what doesn't

> Actually, its very clear- m2m between Sprint and Nextel phones. Partners is
> not Nextel.

And the average Nextel consumer is going make that distinction?


>>- You still can't bundle Nextel and Sprint phones on the same account
>
>
> Of course not- they are still running two seperate billing platforms. Any
> expectation of that changing any time soon would be extremely short sighted.

Some of the largest merged companies completed their systems integration
within 1-2 years of the merger's closing (Cingular being a very notable
exception, but my commentary on Cingular is well known). Yet Sprint is
effectively operating two separate infrastructures and plans to do so
until at least 2010. So.... *what* was the point of this merger again?
Ah, right, knee-jerk reaction to industry developments, and little else.
Certainly the term "synergy" in this merger was never intended to be
taken seriously.


> Not massive- this is a publicly traded company with just over 2 million
> subscribers, limited infrastructure and customer base in secondary markets
> and very little market appeal of their own. The cost was probably well
> calculated and its not like the price would be double that os a similarly
> sized carrier.

If the cost was well calculated, then there wouldn't be a need to
mediate a final purchase price, now would there? And while Nextel
Partners and Sprint's affiliates don't have immediately apparent market
appeal of their own, they still hold rights to vast coverage areas, and
POPS within those coverage areas that are figured every quarter in
Sprint Nextel's subscriber numbers. They also have noncompetes with the
former entities that extend will into 2008 in some cases.

In short, what the affiliates DO have is bargaining power. It doesn't
necessarily matter what the companies are WORTH, but rather how much
Sprint-Nextel is willing to pay to stay a Tier One carrier and to
continue to be able to say they have a "true" nationwide network for the
next couple of years. Further, some affilaites don't WANT to be bought
out. They instead want the merger undone, and there's just as much
chance the courts will agree with them as not.

>
>>- Touting a lot of added features in their new plans, but raising the
>>costs to get them.
>
>
> Nobody is chopping prices right now, and most of the competition has done
> the same price raising.

Yet Sprint is #3 in subscriber numbers and native coverage footprint.
Whether that gives them the leverage to charge as much as their larger
competitors for the same service is highly questionable.



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Isaiah Beard wrote:
> Scott wrote:
<snip>

>> Not massive- this is a publicly traded company with just over 2
>> million subscribers, limited infrastructure and customer base in
>> secondary markets and very little market appeal of their own. The
>> cost was probably well calculated and its not like the price would
>> be double that os a similarly sized carrier.
>

<snipped Isaiah's inane rambling>

>
> In short, what the affiliates DO have is bargaining power. It doesn't
> necessarily matter what the companies are WORTH, but rather how much
> Sprint-Nextel is willing to pay to stay a Tier One carrier and to
> continue to be able to say they have a "true" nationwide network for
> the next couple of years. Further, some affilaites don't WANT to be
> bought out. They instead want the merger undone, and there's just as
> much
> chance the courts will agree with them as not.

Isaiah is delusional, and is now intermingling Nextel Partners with
Sprint's affiliates. Nextel Partners voluntarily dropped their absurd
lawsuit this past summer. Sprint Nextel is the one now suing Nextel
Partners. Twice. While Partners are of course counter-claiming, it's all
about the value of the company. Sprint believes they are trying to
overly-value the company. Assuming it even gets that far, that is about
the only issue for a court to decide. The lawsuits between Sprint's
affiliates are largely finished, generally resulting in buyouts. Small
potatoes at that. Only an idiot would think there is actually a 50:50
chance of the merger being "undone."

Regardless, none of this is anywhere close to the gloom and doom Isaiah
is (poorly) trying to portray--throughout his entire post. This is made
more laughable when compared to his glowing comments about the Sprint
Nextel merger on the Cingular group.


--
Mike

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Actually, its very clear- m2m between Sprint and Nextel phones.
>>> Partners is
>>> not Nextel.
>>
>> And the average Nextel consumer is going make that distinction?
>
> You're exactly right. The average Sprint, Nextel, or Nextel Partners
> consumer is not going to make that distinction.
>
> And remember, when I asked about it in the Sprint store, she
> pooh-poohed
> it all with a "well, it won't affect you, and doesn't really affect
> many people overall." That tells me she really didn't know the
> answer.
>
> If I'm calling a Nextel number, I'm calling a Nextel number. Don't
> tell
> me there are different classes of Nextel customers.

There are different classes of Nextel customers.

In particular, Nextel Partners, who only have 2 million subscribers,
generally in rural and smaller markets. This is not a very high number
compared to the total subscriber-base of Sprint Nextel (more than 45
million subscribers).

Nextel--now Sprint Nextel--owns 32% of Nextel Partners. Due to a
contractual clause Sprint Nextel will, or should be, acquiring the rest
of the company. The value of that company is in question, and may have
to be decided via arbitration or litigation. In the meantime, Nextel
Partners customers are of a "different class."

This is a non-issue for me as the only Nextel users I know are not
Nextel Partners' subscribers. Actually, I didn't even expect
cross-network M2M to occur as fast as it did. I see this as the glass
being 95% full, not 5% empty. YMWV.


--
Mike

"Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Scott wrote:
>
>> I don't see this as a customer isuue, as I'm unaware of any change in
>> service for affiliate customers.
>
> Have you tried looking at a coverage map lately for an affiliate market
> off the website, or attempted to look at service plans or phones for that
> matter? All of this is on a separate interface, with outdated coverage
> maps and different plan pricing. And there was a three week period where
> none of the affiliate info was available at all.

So, it is no different than it was before the merger- all of that has been
going on at various times for the last 5 years.
>
>
>>>- Opaqueness over what countes as m2m and what doesn't
>
>> Actually, its very clear- m2m between Sprint and Nextel phones. Partners
>> is not Nextel.
>
> And the average Nextel consumer is going make that distinction?

They sure are.

>
>
>>>- You still can't bundle Nextel and Sprint phones on the same account
>>
>>
>> Of course not- they are still running two seperate billing platforms.
>> Any expectation of that changing any time soon would be extremely short
>> sighted.
>
> Some of the largest merged companies completed their systems integration
> within 1-2 years of the merger's closing (Cingular being a very notable
> exception, but my commentary on Cingular is well known).

Examples? And please make them pertinent- merging inventory management
services is not the same thing.

Yet Sprint is
> effectively operating two separate infrastructures and plans to do so
> until at least 2010.

Two networks until 2010. One billing system much sooner. There are
absolutely no plans to keep both billing systems.

> So.... *what* was the point of this merger again? Ah, right, knee-jerk
> reaction to industry developments, and little else. Certainly the term
> "synergy" in this merger was never intended to be taken seriously.

Other than the costs associated with a consolidated billing platform
(elimination of duplicate systems and support groups, unified care, etc.),
dramatically improved buying power, improved cost per subscriber, lower
sales costs and many other metrics, you are right. However, I have yet to
see anybody (including you) show any material disadvantage to the merger-
all I see is doomsaying.

>
>
>> Not massive- this is a publicly traded company with just over 2 million
>> subscribers, limited infrastructure and customer base in secondary
>> markets and very little market appeal of their own. The cost was
>> probably well calculated and its not like the price would be double that
>> os a similarly sized carrier.
>
> If the cost was well calculated, then there wouldn't be a need to mediate
> a final purchase price, now would there? And while Nextel Partners and
> Sprint's affiliates don't have immediately apparent market appeal of their
> own, they still hold rights to vast coverage areas, and POPS within those
> coverage areas that are figured every quarter in Sprint Nextel's
> subscriber numbers. They also have noncompetes with the former entities
> that extend will into 2008 in some cases.
>
> In short, what the affiliates DO have is bargaining power. It doesn't
> necessarily matter what the companies are WORTH, but rather how much
> Sprint-Nextel is willing to pay to stay a Tier One carrier and to continue
> to be able to say they have a "true" nationwide network for the next
> couple of years. Further, some affilaites don't WANT to be bought out.
> They instead want the merger undone, and there's just as much chance the
> courts will agree with them as not.

Nextel Partners DOES want to be bought and is trying to artificially inflate
the value of the company. Can't blame them, but it will be almost
impossible to pull off- there have been too many transactions in the
industry recently to use for comparison. And shares of Partners have not
been setting the world on fire recently- apparently Wall Street doesn't
expect them to get a windfall. The purchase price will be much lower than
they are touting.

>
>>
>>>- Touting a lot of added features in their new plans, but raising the
>>>costs to get them.
>>
>>
>> Nobody is chopping prices right now, and most of the competition has done
>> the same price raising.
>
> Yet Sprint is #3 in subscriber numbers and native coverage footprint.
> Whether that gives them the leverage to charge as much as their larger
> competitors for the same service is highly questionable.

Nextel was much further down the chain and commanded the highest prices in
the industry. Size doesn't matter.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> >> Actually, its very clear- m2m between Sprint and Nextel phones.
>> >> Partners
>> >> is not Nextel.
>> >
>> > And the average Nextel consumer is going make that distinction?
>>
>> They sure are.
>
> What is your justification for saying that?
>

Its not an affiliate- it is a separate company with specific boundaries. I
know that calling a "Nextel" customer in Buffalo, NY is going to be in
Partners territory. I know that a "Nextel" number in Omaha, Nebraska is a
Partners number. There is no overlapping coverage. And it doesn't take a
PhD in Cartography to be able to quickly identify about 95% of Partners
territories.

Of course, the other alternative is to not offer m2m at all between the
networks- then a person could simply pay for all of the calls and there
would be no confusion. I'd prefer to pay for the occassional call and not
get it absolutely right every time.

Bob Smith wrote:

> No need to requote your post Steve ... as you just agreed with me ...

I most certainly do agree with you. It sounded like you didn't think I was
agreeing with you, so I was clarifying that I did.

--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: [email protected] Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307

Isaiah Beard wrote:

> And the average Nextel consumer is going make that distinction?

Hell, I'm a self-avowed "cellular geek," and I make a point of trying to
keep up with industry developments, and even *I* can't make the distinction.

--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: [email protected] Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307