LG VX6100 switches to "Manner Mode" in my pocket(!!)

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:18:06 -0400, "Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote:

>LG tells folk that the 'feature' is a VZN requirement and to call VZN.
>
>VZN's responce is it's a 'feature'

I'm not surprised. VZW's Product Marketing and Development Department
sets all of the requirements for phones used on their system.
Sometimes they use the Microsoft philosophy of referring to bugs as
"features".

---

› See More: LG VX6100 switches to "Manner Mode" in my pocket(!!)

"Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:PnBbe.91529$A31.6528@fed1read03...
| Physical proximity of the phone antenna to your body causes the phone to
| loose signal. The body is a very good attenuator of RF signals. If you do
| not believe this, in a low signal area, note the reading on the phone's
| signal meter and then hold your hand against the antenna. You will notice
| that the signal meter will drop a bar or two. When the phone is on your
belt
| it is not in direct contact with your body, the signal is not attenuated
as
| much a if the phone is in your pants pocket.
|

You have no concept of the physics of antanna systems or of the link budgets
involved in the RBS designs. While there are some attenuation involved the
magnitude is such that it would be difficult to measure with calibrated lab
equipment. (RSSI bars on the phone display don't come anywhere near that
level of accuracy.)

Hint: there is very little as in almost no noticeable change in the
performance due to bio-absorbsion when you move your head while using a
phone. What changes there are more a function of the non-linear signal
pattern of the phone and antenna. ditto when the phone is in a pocket or on
the belt.

"Thomas G. Marshall"

| > LG tells folk that the 'feature' is a VZN requirement and to call VZN.
| >
| > VZN's response is it's a 'feature'
|
| Bingo. Did you get that from my post alone, or did you bump into the same
| thing, or are you merely guessing really well?

Actually from years of doing business (on the handset
manufacturing/engineering side) with VZN, their predecessors and to a lesser
but equally frustrating end with their competitors.

To LG's defense, VZN has some very odd but fixed requirements of their
vendors. VZN plays the IPR hammer very well even when they don't own the
nails.

In article <vXtbe.3302$u56.1608@trndny09>,
[email protected] says...
> Roger Binns coughed up:
> > "Thomas G. Marshall"
> > <[email protected]> wrote in
> > message news:HJ7be.1675$oD6.97@trndny07...
> >> Is there any software update available at all that will give me an
> >> option to fully disable the side buttons when the clamshell is
> >> closed??????
> >
> > Nope. This "feature" has been present in LG phones since at least
> > the VX4400. I always tell people to call up LG and ask for a fix. You
> > won't get
> > one, but at least they will have people, time and money taken up with the
> > issue and may actually get a clue one day.
> >
> > That said, I have only had it happen to me once (I always keep my
> > phone in my pocket). Other people with LG phones seem to have it *A LOT*.
> >
> > Roger
>
> I've already emailed both LG and Verizon.
>
> LG responded quickly with "there is no way we can provide a software fix for
> this, since it is up to verizon to do so."
>
> Verizon responded with useless bull**** about how to press the keys to

I've had the VX6000 for about a year and a half. I always carry it in
my pocket. But, I have the leather case. I started carrying it on the
belt but I like the pocket better because the belt clip would not hold
the phone securely and so it was coming open and looked stupid! Also,
I can better feel the vibrate in my pocket.

Short answer, the leather case protects the phone...mine looks almost
like new...and keeps the dumb button presses from happening. Works
fine.

BTW, I'm in a rural area away from towers and still get great signal
inside and outside. And this under my metal shingled roof (house built
1920). Pager (Motorola) doesn't work in the house but the cell does.

I don't see a button problem here if using the leather case.

I hope that helps.
--

Drum-

Not only are the side buttons a stupid and redundant feature for the
switching of modes function, since you can do it with the star key
inside, but whats even worse is you can't answer the phone while it is
closed. You either have to flip it open or push a key inside. Not
great when your driving or have the phone in a holster with ear buds.(
I know, you can set it to auto answer.) The phone is not for serious
users who just need a good phone. I switched back to my kyocera 2325.
No frills but a workhorse. Good software interface for backing up
numbers and speed dials too.

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:46:05 -0400, The Ghost of General Lee
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:18:06 -0400, "Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>LG tells folk that the 'feature' is a VZN requirement and to call VZN.
>>
>>VZN's responce is it's a 'feature'
>
>I'm not surprised. VZW's Product Marketing and Development Department
>sets all of the requirements for phones used on their system.
>Sometimes they use the Microsoft philosophy of referring to bugs as
>"features".

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:30:32 GMT, SL <[email protected]> wrote:

>Not only are the side buttons a stupid and redundant feature for the
>switching of modes function, since you can do it with the star key
>inside, but whats even worse is you can't answer the phone while it is
>closed. You either have to flip it open or push a key inside. Not
>great when your driving or have the phone in a holster with ear buds.(
>I know, you can set it to auto answer.) The phone is not for serious
>users who just need a good phone. I switched back to my kyocera 2325.
>No frills but a workhorse. Good software interface for backing up
>numbers and speed dials too.

I'm very familiar with the 2325. My mother has one, and I have a
3035. Same basic feature set. I'd have to argue the "no frills"
comment. It has some frills, just *useful* ones. The scheduler is
great. I just bought a new battery for my 3035, as I intend to use it
until there's absolutely no life left in it. Even then, I have
extended warranty coverage, so I may be with a 3035 for a few more
years. After finally getting all the bugs worked out (well, most of
them), it has been a wonderful phone. I will give up cell service
completely before I use one of those damned flip phones.

Not Me wrote:

> You have no concept of the physics of antanna systems or of
> the link budgets involved in the RBS designs. While there
> are some attenuation involved the magnitude is such that it
> would be difficult to measure with calibrated lab equipment.
> (RSSI bars on the phone display don't come anywhere near that
> level of accuracy.)

But you can read it quite accurately from the phone's internals
using a serial cable and the "AT+CSQ" command. Using a Siemens
S55 phone held in the direction of the serving cell's 900 mHz
BTS, I'm seeing attenuation of 12 to 16 dBm when I hold the
phone against my ear. And that's a very significant drop.

> Hint: there is very little as in almost no noticeable change
> in the performance due to bio-absorbsion when you move your
> head while using a phone. What changes there are more a
> function of the non-linear signal pattern of the phone and
> antenna. ditto when the phone is in a pocket or on the belt.

And when I put the S55 in a leather case with a belt clip and a
metal reinforcing plate sewn in to strengthen the belt clip
attachment, I see a consistent 10 dBm drop. This has been
tested many times in different surroundings.

Admittedly, the S55's got an internal antenna, and a phone with
a protruding stub antenna should fare somewhat better.

John

Interesting. I have been posting on usenet since 1990 and did not know about
the top posting. The RF attenuation is primarily caused by the water in the
body.
Regards,

-mij

"Thomas G. Marshall" <[email protected]>
wrote in message news:y4Dbe.6794$WX.1601@trndny01...
> Mij Adyaw coughed up:
>> Physical proximity of the phone antenna to your body causes the phone
>> to loose signal. The body is a very good attenuator of RF signals. If
>> you do not believe this, in a low signal area, note the reading on
>> the phone's signal meter and then hold your hand against the antenna.
>> You will notice that the signal meter will drop a bar or two. When
>> the phone is on your belt it is not in direct contact with your body,
>> the signal is not attenuated as much a if the phone is in your pants
>> pocket.
>
> Please STOP top posting after others have bottom posted!!! It makes a
> mess of the messages and is VERY RUDE!!!
>
> Regarding your reply: Is the attenuation directly related to the water in
> the body? Curious.
>
> In any case, I've not missed calls before with [moto] cell phones in my
> pocket---at least no one, particularly my wife, have complained about not
> getting to me. But with this LG, I *do* miss the call when it's
> vibrating. Perhaps the ring volume is alterable as well by the side
> buttons with the clamshell closed, which could definitely cause missed
> calls, but I'll have to experiment with that.
>
> And the point is moot: I think a cell phone stuck on the belt looks
> silly---I /want/ the thing in my pocket.
>
>
>>
>>
>> "Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:zGxbe.90334$A31.75383@fed1read03...
>>>> Don't put the phone in your pants pocket!!! The phones were not
>>>> designed to be carried in your pants pocket. It reduces the RF
>>>> signal and you will miss incoming calls. Buy a holster for the
>>>> phone and carry it on your belt. Problem solved very easily.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just how great is the RF attenuation from resting in my pocket vs.
>>> that on the side of the belt? Same applies to the phone in my
>>> wife's purse or in my
>>> brief case covered by car keys and whatever other 'stuff' might be in
>>> there
>>> as well?
>
>
>
> --
> "Well, ain't this place a geographical oddity!
> Two weeks from everywhere!"
>
>

Your statement is incorrect. Place the phone in debug mode and you can
monitor the signal drop in dBm. BTW: I am an electrical engineer that holds
a second class FCC Radio Telephone License. I haven't practiced RF design
for years, however there are some basic concepts that never change. I have
also been in signal situations with cell phones where placing the phone to
your head would cause enough signal attenuation for the call to be dropped.

Regards,

-mij

"Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:PnBbe.91529$A31.6528@fed1read03...
> | Physical proximity of the phone antenna to your body causes the phone to
> | loose signal. The body is a very good attenuator of RF signals. If you
> do
> | not believe this, in a low signal area, note the reading on the phone's
> | signal meter and then hold your hand against the antenna. You will
> notice
> | that the signal meter will drop a bar or two. When the phone is on your
> belt
> | it is not in direct contact with your body, the signal is not attenuated
> as
> | much a if the phone is in your pants pocket.
> |
>
> You have no concept of the physics of antanna systems or of the link
> budgets
> involved in the RBS designs. While there are some attenuation involved
> the
> magnitude is such that it would be difficult to measure with calibrated
> lab
> equipment. (RSSI bars on the phone display don't come anywhere near that
> level of accuracy.)
>
> Hint: there is very little as in almost no noticeable change in the
> performance due to bio-absorbsion when you move your head while using a
> phone. What changes there are more a function of the non-linear signal
> pattern of the phone and antenna. ditto when the phone is in a pocket or
> on
> the belt.
>
>

"Thomas G. Marshall" spewed
>
> Please don't top post after others have bottom posted. You're making a
> HUGE mess!
>
> The trial period is of no use---this is something I discovered after the
> fact.
>
> Oh well. At least I know a couple of things.
>
> 1. I am only trusting Motorola from now on. They have issues too, but
> I've never had one like this.
>
> 2. I know now to test the side buttons on flip phones to see if what it is
> they do when the clamshell is closed. I never in a million years would
> have guessed that such sensitive buttons on the side of a phone would be
> allowed to switch the phone to manner mode /with the clamshell closed/.
> It's just common sense to not do this---sense LG clearly didn't have. So
> it never occurred to me to check something like this.
>
>

If in 15 days of use you never experienced this "big problem" even once, I
guess it kind of shows who were dealing with. Either it doesn't happen
that often, or you're lacking common sense. I'm sure the buttons do indeed
get pressed often when the phone is in your pocket, so your problem is
obvious... you're lacking common sense. Just my opinion...

Btw, let me give you another clue which most observant users would have
surely found out by now; if you lock your keys by pressing the # key for a
couple of seconds before putting it in your pocket your phone "will not take
photos" and it "will not go into driving mode". It's amazing what reading
some instructions can achieve... But instead you want to plop your HUGE
mess all over this forum.


>"Thomas G. Marshall" opined: --
>With knowledge comes sorrow.

Yeah, right...

"John Henderson"
|
| > You have no concept of the physics of antenna systems or of
| > the link budgets involved in the RBS designs. While there
| > are some attenuation involved the magnitude is such that it
| > would be difficult to measure with calibrated lab equipment.
| > (RSSI bars on the phone display don't come anywhere near that
| > level of accuracy.)
|
| But you can read it quite accurately from the phone's internals
| using a serial cable and the "AT+CSQ" command. Using a Siemens
| S55 phone held in the direction of the serving cell's 900 mHz
| BTS, I'm seeing attenuation of 12 to 16 dBm when I hold the
| phone against my ear. And that's a very significant drop.


Again not a calibrated indication.

|
| > Hint: there is very little as in almost no noticeable change
| > in the performance due to bio-absorbsion when you move your
| > head while using a phone. What changes there are more a
| > function of the non-linear signal pattern of the phone and
| > antenna. ditto when the phone is in a pocket or on the belt.
|
| And when I put the S55 in a leather case with a belt clip and a
| metal reinforcing plate sewn in to strengthen the belt clip
| attachment, I see a consistent 10 dBm drop. This has been
| tested many times in different surroundings.
|
| Admittedly, the S55's got an internal antenna, and a phone with
| a protruding stub antenna should fare somewhat better.


10 dBm drop 'relative to what' and how measured? FWIW a drop of that
magnitude is the result of other factors and *not* due to bio-metrics. I
direct you to work done by Dr. Queue Balzano (spl?) of Motorola on the SAR
for the CTIA studies of the bio-hazard of RF energy for more specifics on
these parameters. (hint it's not light reading)

BTW at 800 mHz passing behind a grove of trees will give you a 20 db (+/-)
path loss. This is commonly factored into the link budget of all RF
communicatons systems.

"Mij Adyaw"

| Your statement is incorrect. Place the phone in debug mode and you can
| monitor the signal drop in dBm. BTW: I am an electrical engineer that
holds
| a second class FCC Radio Telephone License. I haven't practiced RF design
| for years, however there are some basic concepts that never change. I have
| also been in signal situations with cell phones where placing the phone to
| your head would cause enough signal attenuation for the call to be
dropped.

If we're to play 'mine is bigger then yours game: Try a First Phone and
First Telegraph with radar and FAA certification... and that's not the half
of it.

And I *have* made a living in wireless engineering for over 40 years.

Again a dropped call from placing the phone to the head is the result of
other factors than bio-metric effects of placing the phone to the head.

Not Me wrote:

> Again not a calibrated indication.

Do elaborate.

> 10 dBm drop 'relative to what' and how measured?

In this example, the signal strength's 10 dBm weaker when the
phone's in the leather (and metal) case sitting on a desk - not
being worn. Two brands of leather case were tried, with
virtually identical results. Readings were of the phone's own
RSSI measurement via a serial cable, giving +- 2 dBm accuracy.

> FWIW a drop of that magnitude is the result of other factors
> and *not* due to bio-metrics.

What caused the 12 - 16 dBm attenuation with the phone held to
the ear then? All my amalgam tooth fillings?

Because it's an internal-antenna phone, my hand was also
covering the antenna. But that's how people use them. I can
repeat these results ad nauseam.

> I direct you to work done by Dr. Queue Balzano (spl?) of
> Motorola on the SAR for the CTIA studies of the bio-hazard of
> RF energy for more specifics on these parameters. (hint it's
> not light reading)
>
> BTW at 800 mHz passing behind a grove of trees will give you a
> 20 db (+/-) path loss. This is commonly factored into the
> link budget of all RF communicatons systems.

And this is variable with the variation due to different
moisture content of the leaves according to research done by
Australia's peak government scientific body - the CSIRO. You
and I contain moisture, just like leaves do.

John

"Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mij Adyaw"
>
Snip, Snip, Remove Boasting, Bragging, Blowing Own Horn, etc....
>
>
> Again a dropped call from placing the phone to the head is the result of
> other factors than bio-metric effects of placing the phone to the head.
>
What factors? Please explain..

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:19:15 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Mij Adyaw coughed up:
>> It is not just the antenna poking you problem. The antenna is so
>> close to your body that it significantly attenuates the RF
>> performance of the phone. Cell phone signals are also vertically
>> polarized and therefore the phone should be kept upright for optimal
>> performance. This is a very well known fact in RF engineering. Why
>> don't you just get a leather case or pouch and carry the phone on
>> your belt?
>
>
>1. I read a complaint that even having that phone on a clip will cause the
>same behavior, since it is easy to move in such a way that the button is
>pressed.
>
>2. I do not /want/ a phone anywhere but in my pocket. It's a matter of
>what you're used to, and what you like. If I cannot put a phone in my
>pocket, then I don't want it. Period, end of chapter, end of story.
>
>After my eons of having a wired-into-the-car phones (all Motorola), I
>switched to the StarTac. Awesome phone. In the pocket. No issues, except
>that the antenna tip was allowed to bend. $10 fix every year or so.
>Eventually I switched to a moto T720i. Perfect in the pocket. Now this
>phone. Except for the stupid buttons, it'd be fine in the pocket.
>
>To me, phones, loose change, keys, are all pocket items. There's nothing
>wrong with that.

Quit crying. You have to hold the button for several seconds for the
feature to activate. If it does, manner mode means it will vibrate,
something you can feel if you have it in your pocket! The fact is
that they are decent phones, if you don't happen to like it (for
whatever reason) don't buy it. That doesn't mean someone else won't
like it. MMMmmmmm....maybe that is why there are so many options in
the market!