In Mobile Phones, Older Users Say, More Is Less

Logan Shaw wrote:
> nina wrote:
> > I need one that will somehow page my phone when i lose it in the house.
>
> If you have no land line but you do have internet access, you can often
> send your phone a text message by sending an e-mail to a special address
> or by filling out a form on a web page. I'm sure phones vary, but my
> phone plays a little chime noise when it gets a new text message.
>
> The problem with this plan, of course, is that often you get charged
> something like $0.10 per text message. But, you can sometimes get on
> a plan where you get unlimited text messages, or 100 per month for a
> low fee.
>
> - Logan

it took me forever to fugure out how to text my damned phone here in
puerto rico
we dont use the regular vtext site,it seems

---

› See More: In Mobile Phones, Older Users Say, More Is Less

Logan Shaw <[email protected]> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> The point is that some devices can never be so simple that
>> they are as obvious as a faucet, essentially because a faucet
>> only has one function, allow a variable amount of water to flow.

>> It will never be possible to design a VCR to record
>> while you are out anything like as obviously.

> I agree with your point that even some simple things require documentation or
> training to use properly. I have seen people use a hammer incorrectly, for
> instance.

Yeah, and screwdrivers too.

> However, I think it'd be possible to make a VCR that records while you're out
> and does it in a very obvious, easy fashion, almost as easy as turning on the
> faucet:

Nothing like as easy as turning on a faucet.

> 1. Get a dedicated 21" LCD touchscreen, and put a big label on it that says
> "record panel".
> 2. Fetch TV schedule from internet, display on "record panel".
> 3. Any show the user touches with their finger gets recorded.
> You want to record "Everybody Loves Raymond"? You put your finger on
> "Everybody Loves Raymond", and it highlights that show, and then (when it's
> time), it records it.

Thats not a VCR, thats a PVR.

> It'd expensive, it'd be big, and you'd have to (gasp) walk over to the
> machine. But, it would be really obvious how to use it.

Yes, but it isnt a VCR.

Yes, its pretty obvious how to name entrys in a phone
list with a full sized keyboard available. Its never going
to be anything like as obvious as a faucet with a
cellphone with just a basic keyboard for text entry tho.

Thats the problem with a VCR, it just doesnt have
anything that can be used to make programming it to
record while you are out as easy to use as a faucet.

It isnt hard to make a toaster as easy to use as a faucet,
essentially because what needs to be done is as simple.

It isnt even possible to make a door as easy to
use as a faucet once you allow it to be locked etc.

Rod Speed wrote:
> nina <[email protected]> wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> ameijers <[email protected]> wrote
> >>> Joseph <[email protected]> wrote
> >>>> MrPepper11 <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >>>>> If the battery on the Vodafone Simply, as it's called, gets low,
> >>>>> the phone doesn't signal this with a tiny icon somewhere.
> >>>>> Instead, on its screen, the words "please charge" appear.
>
> >>>> Hmmm, this is very interesting. When any and all of the Nokia
> >>>> handsets I have get a low battery condition the handset beeps
> >>>> and there's a message "low battery." How much clearer can
> >>>> that be that you need to plug the handset into the charger!
>
> >>>>> If a message is waiting, a light flashes,
> >>>>> like in old-fashioned answering machines.
>
> >>>> Well, just basic instruction in the beginning pages of a user's
> >>>> manual should make it quite clear what's the indication that
> >>>> they have messages waiting. That's hardly nuclear science.
>
> >>> Basic concept of human factor engineering is
> >>> that everyday objects should be self-evident.
>
> >> It aint even possible in the real world most of the time.
>
> >> Nothing 'self evident' about a power switch.
>
> >> In spades with those you press to turn the
> >> device on and press again to turn it off again.
>
> >>> The concept of an owners manual (and a work, a
> >>> training class) for a telephone, is frigging ridiculous.
>
> >> It aint necessarily feasible to do a relatively complex
> >> device like a VCR or cellphone without one.
>
> >>> It should be like a faucet- look at it, and you know how to work it.
>
> >> Not even possible with a cellphone or a VCR.
>
> > Yup.
>
> Nup.
>
> > I have an autistic kid that can use a device that is simple.
> > Microwave-one touch button for popcorn
> > VCR-one button for play one for FWD one for REW even
> > if he calls them "fwd'and "rew", he knows HOW they work.
>
> Have fun designing a VCR that can record while you are
> out in a way that's as obvious as a faucet. Cant be done.
>
> > Phone. Press "call", list of people appears on
> > screen, press one button to call said person.
>
> Pity about how you get the names into the list in the first place.
It can be done simply.


>
> >>> I do 'tech' for a living, and make pretty good money at it.
> >>> Some of the hardware and software coming in baffles me,
> >>> so I know our casual end users are gonna be clueless.
>
> >> Sure, but thats a different matter to your silly claim that its
> >> actually possible to design a VCR or a cellphone so that it
> >> can be used by someone who has never seen one without
> >> any instructions on how to use it or a manual etc.
>
> > Bah.
>
> Blah.

I think its possible.

Rod Speed wrote:

>
> Its more complicated than that with power switches where you
> press it to turn it on and press it to turn it off again. That is a real
> problem with those who have deteriorated into gross senility etc.


But the issue isnt whether there are dvices which cannot be figured
out, the issue is whether there are devices that CAN be. The existence
of complicated switches doesnt mean there are no easy ones.

> It will never be possible to design a VCR to record
> while you are out anything like as obviously.

Ok. But it is possible to do one touch recording for someone who wants
to put a tape in and record what the are currently watching.


>
> > They pick them up and do stuff, when they
> > figure out what works, they keep doing it.
>
> Only works for the simpler devices. Consider
> how they learned to ride a bike for example.

Got on, pushed around a little, figured it out.

>
> Also not possible to design a bike so even the worst
> techno klutzs can always fix whatever goes wrong either.

The issue wasnt repairing, the issue was using.

"nina" <[email protected]> wrote:
>But the phone itself isnt intuitive. You shouldnt have to read a book
>to check a basic function of a phone.

I've seen a number of newbie cellphone users who were unsure about how
to answer the phone when it was ringing (didn't know what button to
push).

nina <[email protected]> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> nina <[email protected]> wrote

>>> Someone can figure out a light switch or a hammer or
>>> a faucet with a few minutes and a little manipulation.

Plenty cant with a hammer or screwdriver.

>>> Hmm, a switch, what does it do? Dunno/
>>> How does it work? Dunno. Flip flip. AH.

>> Its more complicated than that with power switches where you
>> press it to turn it on and press it to turn it off again. That is a real
>> problem with those who have deteriorated into gross senility etc.

> But the issue isnt whether there are devices which cannot be figured
> out, the issue is whether there are devices that CAN be. The existence
> of complicated switches doesnt mean there are no easy ones.

The reality is that even easy ones arent actually figured
out at all, they're action is basically remembered and
what is possible with something as simple as a switch
or a faucet just isnt possible with a cellphone or a VCR
that needs to do more than just one simple on/off action.

>>> I have kids, so u cant tell me that people need
>>> instruction to learn to use most simple devices.

>> The point is that some devices can never be so simple that
>> they are as obvious as a faucet, essentially because a faucet
>> only has one function, allow a variable amount of water to flow.

>> It will never be possible to design a VCR to record
>> while you are out anything like as obviously.

> Ok. But it is possible to do one touch recording for someone who
> wants to put a tape in and record what the are currently watching.

Yes, but it just isnt possible to implement recording
while you are out anything like as obviously or as
easy to figure out by trial and error.

THATS the problem, some functions can
never be as easy and obvious as a faucet.

Even doors arent.

>>> They pick them up and do stuff, when they
>>> figure out what works, they keep doing it.

>> Only works for the simpler devices. Consider
>> how they learned to ride a bike for example.

> Got on, pushed around a little, figured it out.

It doesnt happen like that. The reality is
that someone shows them the basics.

They do with the stuff that can burn them etc too.

They arent left to figure out that sharp knives can cut them either.

Or that if they torment the cat enough, they can get scratched/bitten.

nina <[email protected]> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> nina <[email protected]> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> ameijers <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>> Joseph <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>> MrPepper11 <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>>>>>> If the battery on the Vodafone Simply, as it's called, gets low,
>>>>>>> the phone doesn't signal this with a tiny icon somewhere.
>>>>>>> Instead, on its screen, the words "please charge" appear.
>>
>>>>>> Hmmm, this is very interesting. When any and all of the Nokia
>>>>>> handsets I have get a low battery condition the handset beeps
>>>>>> and there's a message "low battery." How much clearer can
>>>>>> that be that you need to plug the handset into the charger!
>>
>>>>>>> If a message is waiting, a light flashes,
>>>>>>> like in old-fashioned answering machines.
>>
>>>>>> Well, just basic instruction in the beginning pages of a user's
>>>>>> manual should make it quite clear what's the indication that
>>>>>> they have messages waiting. That's hardly nuclear science.
>>
>>>>> Basic concept of human factor engineering is
>>>>> that everyday objects should be self-evident.
>>
>>>> It aint even possible in the real world most of the time.
>>
>>>> Nothing 'self evident' about a power switch.
>>
>>>> In spades with those you press to turn the
>>>> device on and press again to turn it off again.
>>
>>>>> The concept of an owners manual (and a work, a
>>>>> training class) for a telephone, is frigging ridiculous.
>>
>>>> It aint necessarily feasible to do a relatively complex
>>>> device like a VCR or cellphone without one.
>>
>>>>> It should be like a faucet- look at it, and you know how to work
>>>>> it.
>>
>>>> Not even possible with a cellphone or a VCR.
>>
>>> Yup.
>>
>> Nup.
>>
>>> I have an autistic kid that can use a device that is simple.
>>> Microwave-one touch button for popcorn
>>> VCR-one button for play one for FWD one for REW even
>>> if he calls them "fwd'and "rew", he knows HOW they work.
>>
>> Have fun designing a VCR that can record while you are
>> out in a way that's as obvious as a faucet. Cant be done.
>>
>>> Phone. Press "call", list of people appears on
>>> screen, press one button to call said person.

>> Pity about how you get the names into the list in the first place.

> It can be done simply.

Nothing like as simple as a faucet.

>>>>> I do 'tech' for a living, and make pretty good money at it.
>>>>> Some of the hardware and software coming in baffles me,
>>>>> so I know our casual end users are gonna be clueless.

>>>> Sure, but thats a different matter to your silly claim that its
>>>> actually possible to design a VCR or a cellphone so that it
>>>> can be used by someone who has never seen one without
>>>> any instructions on how to use it or a manual etc.

>>> Bah.

>> Blah.

> I think its possible.

You're wrong. Most obviously with recording while you are
out with a VCR or with a list of numbers to call in a cellphone.

Its never going to be possible to make the entry of text for the
numbers to call using the keypad without instructions or a manual.

Steve <[email protected]> wrote
> nina <[email protected]> wrote

>> But the phone itself isnt intuitive. You shouldnt have
>> to read a book to check a basic function of a phone.

> I've seen a number of newbie cellphone users who were unsure about how
> to answer the phone when it was ringing (didn't know what button to push).

And it isnt even possible to make that intuitive when the buttons
are too small to have a label of 'press this button to answer the call'

Its not viable to allow the user to press the screen to answer
the call because it would be too easy to do that accidentally
when you didnt actually want to answer the call.

>>But the phone itself isnt intuitive. You shouldnt have to read a book
>>to check a basic function of a phone.

I have a relative who has lots of trouble remembering whether she
has to dial 1 in front of my number or not (and she's sufficiently
concerned about it that she no longer calls, rather than "try it
either way"). She also got really frustrated when I couldn't tell
her whether she'd need to dial 1 (or 9-1) from her new place in the
assisted living center. I've never seen it, and from what I heard
from her they have their own PBX.

>I've seen a number of newbie cellphone users who were unsure about how
>to answer the phone when it was ringing (didn't know what button to
>push).

The button with the little picture of the handset on it is the WRONG
answer (even assuming there's only one of those keys). It answers
the phone *IF* it is ringing, and it starts a new call if it isn't.
The problem here is that you may not know the caller just hung up,
and you may put the phone back on your belt eating up lots and lots
of minutes ...

I usually use the 5 key. If I miss by one key in any direction, it
still answers the phone.

Oh, yes, I really hate it when I discover the *UNDOCUMENTED* feature
that pressing on the 9 key for a long time (easy to do when sitting
in a chair with arms with the phone on your belt) that it calls
911. If that feature is worth having, it's worth documenting. The
cellular company even denied the feature existed until they managed
to demonstrate it (I refuse to make deliberate test calls to 911,
but if you do, accidentally or not, stay on the line and apologize).

Gordon L. Burditt

Steve wrote:
> "nina" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>But the phone itself isnt intuitive. You shouldnt have to read a book
>>to check a basic function of a phone.

> I've seen a number of newbie cellphone users who were unsure about how
> to answer the phone when it was ringing (didn't know what button to
> push).

That's one of the reasons I bought a flip phone: answer = open,
and hang up = close. It certainly wouldn't be beyond my capability
to learn which button(s) answer the phone, but even after I learned,
it would still be awkward to have to fumble around for the button.
The part of the phone that folds open on a flip phone is about 25
times as big as any of the buttons, so it's much easier to locate.

- Logan

Logan Shaw <[email protected]> wrote
> Steve wrote
>> nina <[email protected]> wrote

>>> But the phone itself isnt intuitive. You shouldnt have to read a book to
>>> check a basic function of a phone.

>> I've seen a number of newbie cellphone users who were unsure about how to
>> answer the phone when it was ringing (didn't know what button to push).

> That's one of the reasons I bought a flip phone: answer = open,
> and hang up = close. It certainly wouldn't be beyond my capability
> to learn which button(s) answer the phone, but even after I learned,
> it would still be awkward to have to fumble around for the button.

A well designed phone allows you to hit
any button if you want to set it up like that.

You still need a manual tho because its not
desirable to have the phone do that by default.

And yours isnt as intuitive when making calls.

> The part of the phone that folds open on a flip phone is about 25
> times as big as any of the buttons, so it's much easier to locate.

And isnt as convenient to use a being able to hit any button.

Joseph <[email protected]> wrote
> Steve <[email protected]> wrote

>> I've seen a number of newbie cellphone users
>> who were unsure about how to answer the phone
>> when it was ringing (didn't know what button to push).

> Most phones when they're ringing for an incoming call the display
> will show the call coming in and who's calling either the name of
> the person or their phone number. To answer it the display will
> have on the display 'answer.' Not much question about what to do.

My Nokia 6310i does just that and more, separate button for reject etc too.

Corse you do have to at least skim the manual or already be
aware that the labels on the screen are for the buttons just
under the bottom edge of the screen, but that aint rocket science.

"ameijers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The concept of an owners manual (and a work, a training class)
>for a telephone, is frigging ridiculous. It should be like a faucet- look at
>it, and you know how to work it.

There's nothing obvious about a faucet if you've never used one before.
You turn this thing with protuberances and water comes out 6 inches to a
foot away? What's obvious about that?


--
Jack Hamilton
California
--
<> Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit.
<> François VI, duc de La Rochefoucauld

"Jack Hamilton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> "ameijers" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The concept of an owners manual (and a work, a training class)
> >for a telephone, is frigging ridiculous. It should be like a faucet- look
at
> >it, and you know how to work it.
>
> There's nothing obvious about a faucet if you've never used one before.
> You turn this thing with protuberances and water comes out 6 inches to a
> foot away? What's obvious about that?
>
>
Well, I do take your point, but if you have seen/used one faucet, you can
usually work any of them. With modern phones, you are starting from damn
near scratch every time.

aem sends...

Jack Hamilton <[email protected]> wrote
> ameijers <[email protected]> wrote

>> The concept of an owners manual (and a work, a training class)
>> for a telephone, is frigging ridiculous. It should be like a faucet-
>> look at it, and you know how to work it.

> There's nothing obvious about a faucet if you've never used
> one before. You turn this thing with protuberances and water
> comes out 6 inches to a foot away? What's obvious about that?

Yeah, its basically what you have picked up by watching others do it as a kid.