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  1. #31
    Jonathan Kamens
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    [email protected] writes:
    >Isn't it this magistrate's job to know the law?


    No judge or magistrate is expected to know every aspect of every law
    under his or her juristiction by heart.

    Personally, I would rather have the magistrate take the time to examine
    all the evidence carefully and use whatever resources are necessary
    while doing so, rather than making a ruling on the spot on motions
    pertaining to me.

    Yes, there are things that judge is expected to be able to handle
    immediately, e.g., ruling on motions made during questioning at trial.
    The fact that appeals are successfully made based on errors in such
    rulings makes it clear that even these on-the-spot rulings can be
    problematic.

    You can claim that every judge or magistrate who makes a mistake when
    issuing an on-the-spot ruling is a bad judge, or you can acknowledge
    that the law is a huge, complex best, and even great legal minds
    benefit from careful consideration of their decisions. Personally,
    I'd go for the latter.

    Which isn't to say that there aren't bad judges who take time to
    consider decisions that they could have decided on the spot. I'm sure
    there are such judges. I just don't think my case is exemplary.

    >This isn't some
    >complicated anti-trust case. It's a simple consumer case, and the
    >magistrate sitting in small claims should already know the consumer
    >law. You shouldn't have to ***** it out for her. Any decent judge
    >with experience could decide this on the spot, unless they're getting
    >paid by the hour.


    I do not agree that the case was so simple that a ruling could be made
    quickly on the spot. At the very least, the judge would have had to
    carefully read all the evidence I gave her, and my guess is that that
    alone would have taken her ten or fifteen minutes. I see no reason
    why a court-room full of people waiting for their cases to be heard
    should have to sit around for that long waiting for the magistrate to
    consider a case where the defendant wasn't even present!

    --
    Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
    http://www.genocideintervention.net/



    See More: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint;any suggestions?




  2. #32
    Jonathan Kamens
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    [email protected] writes:
    >Yes, in fact that is exactly what he did:
    >
    >"The only thing she seemed concerned about was that my demand letter
    >didn't explicitly mention Chapter 93A or demand a written response,
    >but
    >I pointed out to her that Chapter 93A doesn't actually require that,
    >and gave her a copy of the law to prove it. "
    >
    >Clearly the judge doesn't know the law, because if she did she
    >wouldn't be worried about his letter not mentioning 93A when the law
    >doesn't require it.


    It is common for Chapter 93A letters to mention explicitly that they
    are Chapter 93A errors and to explicitly demand a written response
    and/or relief under Chapter 93A. It is, in fact, so common, that all
    the boilerplate Chapter 93A letters you'll find if you search the Web
    have such boilerplate language.

    I do not believe that said language is required by the law, but who
    knows, perhaps I'm wrong. Certainly, whether or not it's required,
    putting it in makes things much more cut-and-dried. If every Chapter
    93A case my magistrate has heard has included a letter with such
    boilerplate, then I can understand perfectly why she might think that
    the language is required, and why she would want to do some research
    to confirm my assertion that it isn't.

    Your claim that I shouldn't have to explain the law to the magistrate
    is simply ridiculous. Lawyers "explain the law" to judges all the
    time. In fact, when lawyers make motions to judges, the judges
    frequently demand full briefs from both sides in the dispute, in which
    both sides make their case about exactly why they believe the law is
    on their side.

    >Look, this is a simple case. How much simpler could it be or how
    >much more scruteny can it take to figure out?


    I already answered this in my last posting and shan't do so again.

    >Some of the best and
    >clearest evidence he has as to what Sprint has been doing is that they
    >didn't even show up, ignoring him just as they have all along.


    Failing to show up to defend oneself at trial is hardly ipso facto
    evidence of a chapter 93A violation. It certainly contributes to the
    case, but it's not enough in isolation. Which is why, as I've said
    several times, the magistrate needs to carefully examine *all* the
    evidence before making a final ruling.

    >Now, I know as usual, you'll either turn this into a flame war or show
    >up under one of your other ID's and do the same. But you won't get
    >me to participate, as this is my last word on the subject.


    I'm not a fan of Rod Speed, and I've got him killfiled, but I'm afraid
    in this case he's right and you're wrong.

    --
    Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
    http://www.genocideintervention.net/



  3. #33
    Jonathan Kamens
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    Larry <[email protected]> writes:
    >You all must live in some Utopian society I can't find. It's much more
    >likely she needed time to contact her political bosses to see if Sprint had
    >any of them on a string she'd be better off to not break. ...


    Don't forget to wear your tin-foil hat every day!

    *plonk*

    --
    Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
    http://www.genocideintervention.net/



  4. #34
    Russell Patterson
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    I looked at all the posts and did not see anywhere that you had
    checked your credit report to see if Sprint had done anything there.
    If so, you might have another case against them.

    On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:39:44 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
    (Jonathan Kamens) wrote:

    >I'm going to small claims court tomorrow to sue Sprint Nextel
    >for failing to refund the cost of a cell phone I returned to
    >them within the 30-day guarantee period (indeed, I returned
    >it the day I received it, without even opening it).
    >
    >I've prepared the following summary of my case. I intend to
    >give a copy to the clerk magistrate and to the defendant (if
    >they show up) and to use it as my outline when presenting my
    >case if I am asked to do so (the clerk magistrate may not
    >depend a full presentation if Sprint doesn't show up). Any
    >suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    >I've elided certain details, such as my salary :-), from the
    >summary.
    >
    > Trial Court of Massachusetts
    > Small Claims Session
    > X District Court
    > Docket Number X SC X
    > Trial Date: August 22, 2007
    >
    > Summary of Plaintiff's Case
    >
    >Plaintiff ordered cellular phone and service through Sprint Web site January
    >30, 2007.
    >
    >Plaintiff decided after ordering phone, but before it arrived, that Sprint
    >phone and service were no longer desired.
    >
    >Defendant has "30-Day Risk-Free Guarantee" promising full refund for service
    >canceled within 30 days of initiation. (evidence: copy of policy from
    >defendant's Web site)
    >
    >Plaintiff called Sprint to ask how to cancel order, and was told to refuse
    >delivery of package from UPS, after which package would be returned to Sprint
    >and full refund would be issued.
    >
    >Plaintiff refused package February 5. Package was returned to Sprint February
    >7. (evidence: tracking information from UPS Web site)
    >
    >Over six months later, defendant still has not refunded cost of phone, $262.49,
    >to defendant.
    >
    >Defendant sent plaintiff letter asking for plaintiff to call defendant about
    >service cancelation. Purpose of this call was only to give defendant
    >opportunity to try to convince plaintiff not to cancel service (defendant's
    >agent referred to this letter as "retention letter" in subsequent phone
    >conversation). Plaintiff sent back letter with notation demanding that account
    >be canceled and refund issued without wasting any more of plaintiff's time.
    >
    >Defendant sent plaintiff four bills. Plaintiff sent back first two bills with
    >notation demanding that account be closed and refund issued. Plaintiff refused
    >delivery of third and fourth bills without opening them.
    >
    >Plaintiff spent hours on phone with various Sprint representatives, attempting
    >to get refund. Refund was promised by several different Sprint employees but
    >never delivered.
    >
    >Plaintiff disputed credit card charge with card issuer on March 15. Card
    >issuer rejected dispute after contacting defendant, because defendant refused
    >to confirm that phone had been returned. (evidence: copies of credit card
    >statements with temporary credit and reversal highlighted)
    >
    >Plaintiff sent defendant's CEO complaint office letter on May 1, detailing all
    >problems encountered by plaintiff and demanding full refund. (evidence: copy of
    >letter)
    >
    >Plaintiff received voicemail message from defendant on May 14. Caller
    >identified himself as Tyrone, referenced case number X and telephone number
    >866-398-4606, and falsely claimed that plaintiff's credit card had never been
    >charged any money by defendant. (evidence: scratch paper on which this message
    >was written down)
    >
    >Defendant failed to follow its own published refund policies; failed to keep
    >multiple promises to issue refund; forced plaintiff to spend hours on phone
    >unsuccessfully attempting to obtain refund; failed to initiate proper
    >investigation to confirm return of phone when contacted by credit card issuer;
    >and failed to initiate proper investigation and issue refund in response to
    >plaintiff's letter to CEO. Together, these failures are sufficiently egregious
    >to constitute violation of MGL Chapter 93A. Plaintiff therefore demands
    >damages as follows:
    >
    > 262.49 cost of phone
    > 1.17 postage for letters and bills from plaintiff to defendant
    > XXX.XX lost wages to appear in court (*)
    > --------
    > sub. XXX.XX
    > XXX.XX trebled damages under MGL 93A
    > --------
    > sub. X,XXX.XX
    > XX.XX 12% statutory interest (**)
    > --------
    > sub. X,XXX.XX
    > 40.00 filing fee
    > --------
    > TOTAL X,XXX.XX
    >
    >(*) Plaintiff earns $X annual salary and must use paid or unpaid vacation hours
    >to cover absence while appearing in court. Annual salary is equivalent to $X
    >per hour, or $X for estimated two hours necessary to appear in court.
    >
    >(**) Statutory interest is 12% per annum, calculated from date of breach, as
    >per MGL Chapter 231 Section 6C. Date of tort is February 7, 2007, when phone
    >was returned to defendant and defendant should have issued refund but didn't.
    >196 days elapsed between date of tort and trial date. $X,XXX.XX x 196 / 365.25
    >x 0.12 = $XX.XX.





  5. #35
    Jonathan Kamens
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    Russell Patterson <[email protected]> writes:
    >I looked at all the posts and did not see anywhere that you had
    >checked your credit report to see if Sprint had done anything there.
    >If so, you might have another case against them.


    I've seen a lot of postings and Web pages over the years suggesting
    that people throw around the threat of suing ofr "slander of credit,"
    but I've yet to see a single report of someone actually filing and
    winning such a lawsuit.

    There are certain types of slander which under existing precedent are
    considered damaging by definition, such that the victim does not have
    to prove that he was damaged to sue. As far as I know, slander of
    credit is not in that category, which means that to sue someone for
    putting false items on one's credit record, one would need to prove
    damages. Hand-waving might achieve the burden of proof required to
    file the suit, but hard evidence of quantifiable damages would
    certainly be required to win it.

    In short, even if Sprint did report me for non-payment to the credit
    agencies, it's unlikely that suing them for it would be worthwhile.

    In any case, as it happens, I've seen my credit report since this
    whole debacle happened, and they haven't reported me.

    Incidentally, quoting my entire 107-line posting just so that you
    could top-post a three-line comment above it is poor form.

    --
    Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
    http://www.genocideintervention.net/



  6. #36
    Rod Speed
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    Larry <[email protected]> wrote
    > Todd Allcock <[email protected]> wrote


    >> If specific wording or phrasing is needed to meet the requirements,
    >> she might have to hit the books rather than just wing it off the top
    >> of her head.


    > You all must live in some Utopian society I can't find. It's much
    > more likely she needed time to contact her political bosses to see if
    > Sprint had any of them on a string she'd be better off to not break.


    Mindless conspiracy theory.

    A trivial matter like this doesnt qualify.

    > She's consulting with the machine to see what's best for the
    > political machine, not you, who is of no consequence at one vote on a
    > rigged Diebold voting machine.
    >
    > Sprint is a member of CTIA, a huge lobby group, who can cut off
    > millions of dollars in "campaign contributions" if someone pisses
    > them off or creates a new legal problem for them. The money machine
    > political parties are all bribed by the corporate lobby, whos sole
    > purpose is to prevent this.
    >
    > Sure would be fun to be a fly on the wall in her office when she
    > makes that phone call....(c; She's waiting to see how much money the
    > machine can produce as a reward for her ruling for Sprint. Happens
    > every day.
    >
    > Larry






  7. #37
    wlloow
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Jonathan Kamens wrote:
    >> Larry <[email protected]> writes:
    >>> You all must live in some Utopian society I can't find. It's much
    >>> more likely she needed time to contact her political bosses to see
    >>> if Sprint had any of them on a string she'd be better off to not
    >>> break. ...

    >>
    >> Don't forget to wear your tin-foil hat every day!
    >>
    >> *plonk*


    > In this case Larry may have a valid point.


    Nope.

    > I've been involved in several lawsuits against politicians in the past few years for violations
    > of the Brown Act (aka Government in the Sunshine).


    Pity this one isnt.

    > What are clear violations of the law go unpunished depending on the judge you happen to draw on a
    > particular case, and where his political and financial support comes from.


    A trivial small claims action is a different matter entirely.

    > We had one city council member voting on an ordinance that would
    > benefit him financially. We're suing him under the fair political
    > practices act. We have another city council member that is owned by
    > the building trade unions, all of her votes are based on what her
    > political bosses demand.


    A trivial small claims action is a different matter entirely.





  8. #38
    Jonathan Kamens
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    SMS <[email protected]> writes:
    >In this case Larry may have a valid point.


    Occam's Razor says otherwise.

    The clerk magistrate's professed desire to review the evidence before
    deciding on damages was eminently reasonable, and indeed it was what I
    expected.

    Larry's theory, that a lowly clerk magistrate hearing small-claims
    cases worth peanuts is so hooked into the political machine that she's
    afraid of making a ruling against a corporation which may give money to
    her boss, is rather more implausible, in my opinion, except to people
    in the tinfoil-hat brigade.

    Make no mistake... I agree that there's plenty of corruption and
    back-room deal-making in politics in general, and certainly plenty of
    it in Massachusetts. However, I don't think most reasonable people
    that said machinations are so pervasive that it is necessary and
    appropriate to allege that they have occurred in situations where there
    are other explanations which are far simpler and more reaonable.

    >I've been involved in
    >several lawsuits against politicians in the past few years for
    >violations of the Brown Act (aka Government in the Sunshine). What are
    >clear violations of the law go unpunished depending on the judge you
    >happen to draw on a particular case, and where his political and
    >financial support comes from.
    >
    >We had one city council member voting on an ordinance that would benefit
    >him financially. We're suing him under the fair political practices act.
    >We have another city council member that is owned by the building trade
    >unions, all of her votes are based on what her political bosses demand.


    Just out of curiosity, what state are you, and are the judges you
    mention elected or appointed for life?

    I ask this because elected judges tend to be far more beholden to
    political interests than those who are appointed for life. Judges and
    clerk magistrates in Massachusetts (where I am) are nominated and
    appointed for life.

    --
    Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
    http://www.genocideintervention.net/



  9. #39

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:34:51 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
    (Jonathan Kamens) wrote:

    >Abe <[email protected]> writes:
    >>Agreed. Good preparation. Reimbursement for lost wages for court
    >>appearance won't happen.

    >
    >So should I leave it in my claim or remove it? I.e., I
    >concede that I probably won't get it, but does it hurt to ask
    >for it?


    Leave it and add more other expenses if you can. Sprint needs to be
    taken down. They are one of the biggest crooks in the biz.



  10. #40
    Russell Patterson
    Guest

    Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    That wasn't intentional. My reader starts out at the top and I just
    forgot to delete the stuff below. By the way, what reader do you use
    that puts the cursor on the bottom when you are reading or responding
    to a post? I use Agent which, when scanning through posts in a
    logical thread, opens each up at the top. If everybody bottom posts,
    without deleting earlier posts, I have to scroll through to the bottom
    each and every time. Same thing happens on a reply.

    Is this a browser based vs dedicated newsreader thing? Agent has been
    around for a long time, I think for longer than browser based
    newsgroups came into being. I know it has been around much longer
    than Google. It has much more capability to display threads in a
    logical manner making it easier to scan through a thread. The free
    version primarily lacks killfiles, making it worthile to try. Be
    careful, though you might become a newgroup junkie like me.
    >
    >Incidentally, quoting my entire 107-line posting just so that you
    >could top-post a three-line comment above it is poor form.





  11. #41
    Jonathan Kamens
    Guest

    [OT] Top-posting (was: Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?)

    Russell Patterson <[email protected]> writes:
    >By the way, what reader do you use
    >that puts the cursor on the bottom when you are reading or responding
    >to a post?


    XRN. It's in the header.

    >I use Agent which, when scanning through posts in a
    >logical thread, opens each up at the top.


    Agent is wrong.

    >If everybody bottom posts,
    >without deleting earlier posts, I have to scroll through to the bottom
    >each and every time.


    Replying without trimming the text you're responding to is just as
    wrong as top-posting.

    >Is this a browser based vs dedicated newsreader thing?


    No.

    >Agent has been
    >around for a long time,


    XRN has been around for longer.

    >Be
    >careful, though you might become a newgroup junkie like me.


    Dude, the odds are pretty good that I've been on Usenet since before
    you were born. I even know how to ***** "newsgroup".

    --
    Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
    http://www.genocideintervention.net/



  12. #42
    Russell Patterson
    Guest

    Re: [OT] Top-posting (was: Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?)

    On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:22:49 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
    (Jonathan Kamens) wrote:


    >>Be
    >>careful, though you might become a newgroup junkie like me.

    >
    >Dude, the odds are pretty good that I've been on Usenet since before
    >you were born. I even know how to ***** "newsgroup".


    I doubt that! What was your first home computer? VIC20 here. My
    state of the art "hard drive" was a cassette tape. I was in my
    thirties then.

    To put it in perspective for the youngsters out there, I was working
    on CT scanners in the late 70's that had memory boards that weighed
    about 5 pounds each. They had 8k of memory in each one. We were
    happy as hell when the first 64K memory board was introduced.
    Contrast that to a 2 gig xD memory card for my 7.1 megapixel camera I
    just bought!

    Knowing how to ***** something and typing it correctly are two
    different things.

    By the way, in the mid eighties I attended a couple of the Boston IBM
    PC user group meetings. Thie was about the time the PCJr came out.
    (What a mistake). Were you there about that time?




  13. #43
    Guest

    Top Posting, was Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    > Is this a browser based vs dedicated newsreader thing? Agent has been
    > around for a long time, I think for longer than browser based
    > newsgroups came into being.


    Somewhat, but not in the direction you're thinking. Browser-based
    newsreaders are more likely to top-post than traditional news readers.


    A: Because answers logically *follow* questions!

    Q: Why should the quoted material be on top?


    I'm a relative newcomer to Usenet, having started with the 'rn'
    newsreader on a Unix machine. Back in the days of slow UUCP
    connections, before Usenet migrated to the Internet, people were
    *extremely* anal about wasted bandwidth, so both top-posting and failing
    to trim quoted material were Very Bad Things.

    Browser- and web-based Usenet interface developers have frequently felt
    the need to reinvent the wheel as a square, making design decisions that
    encourage bad posting styles. Top-posting is a hot-button issue for
    people who do not like to read things backwards.

    --
    [email protected] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Braze your own bicycle frames. See
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>



  14. #44
    John Weiss
    Guest

    Re: Top Posting, was Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    <[email protected]> wrote...
    >
    >> Is this a browser based vs dedicated newsreader thing? Agent has been
    >> around for a long time, I think for longer than browser based
    >> newsgroups came into being.

    >
    > Somewhat, but not in the direction you're thinking. Browser-based
    > newsreaders are more likely to top-post than traditional news readers.


    However, Outlook Express, one of the more widely used Windows-based
    NON-browser-based readers top-posts by default!


    > A: Because answers logically *follow* questions!
    >
    > Q: Why should the quoted material be on top?


    Not a good answer...

    For someone who is following the thread, and whose reader orders posts within
    the thread, it is easier to simply open a message and find the latest reply at
    the top! So, bottom-posting is merely a crutch for the johnny-come-lately!


    > I'm a relative newcomer to Usenet, having started with the 'rn'
    > newsreader on a Unix machine. Back in the days of slow UUCP
    > connections, before Usenet migrated to the Internet, people were
    > *extremely* anal about wasted bandwidth, so both top-posting and failing
    > to trim quoted material were Very Bad Things.


    Maybe failure to trim was a universal dislike, but the top- vs bottom-posting
    debate has been around since I started using Usenet in 1993!


    > Browser- and web-based Usenet interface developers have frequently felt
    > the need to reinvent the wheel as a square, making design decisions that
    > encourage bad posting styles. Top-posting is a hot-button issue for
    > people who do not like to read things backwards.


    Bottom-posting is a hot-button issue for people who like to browse Usenet
    efficiently!

    OTOH, in-line posting is valuable for responding to lengthy posts where several
    points need to be addressed...





  15. #45
    Guest

    Re: Top Posting, was Re: Going to small claims court tomorrow against Sprint; any suggestions?

    In article <[email protected]>, "John Weiss"
    <jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> says...
    > <[email protected]> wrote...
    > >
    > >> Is this a browser based vs dedicated newsreader thing? Agent has been
    > >> around for a long time, I think for longer than browser based
    > >> newsgroups came into being.

    > >
    > > Somewhat, but not in the direction you're thinking. Browser-based
    > > newsreaders are more likely to top-post than traditional news readers.

    >
    > However, Outlook Express, one of the more widely used Windows-based
    > NON-browser-based readers top-posts by default!


    It's in the same family as browser-based readers, it's a program
    designed for something else entirely that had Usenet capabilities
    cobbled on as an afterthought, without attention to existing Usenet
    standards and habits.

    > > A: Because answers logically *follow* questions!
    > >
    > > Q: Why should the quoted material be on top?

    >
    > Not a good answer...
    >
    > For someone who is following the thread, and whose reader orders posts within
    > the thread, it is easier to simply open a message and find the latest reply at
    > the top! So, bottom-posting is merely a crutch for the johnny-come-lately!


    No, it's a reflection of the distributed store-and-forward propagation
    of Usenet articles. Less of an issue these days, but articles do not
    necessarily arrive in order. If your article arrives two days before
    the article you were replying to, proper quoting preserves the context
    of your response.

    > > I'm a relative newcomer to Usenet, having started with the 'rn'
    > > newsreader on a Unix machine. Back in the days of slow UUCP
    > > connections, before Usenet migrated to the Internet, people were
    > > *extremely* anal about wasted bandwidth, so both top-posting and failing
    > > to trim quoted material were Very Bad Things.

    >
    > Maybe failure to trim was a universal dislike, but the top- vs bottom-posting
    > debate has been around since I started using Usenet in 1993!


    I seem to recall Pine caused a flurry of top-posting in the early-to-mid
    '90s, can't remember exactly when it began to support posting instead of
    just reading, but I remember many flamewars over that and other posting
    flaws.

    > > Browser- and web-based Usenet interface developers have frequently felt
    > > the need to reinvent the wheel as a square, making design decisions that
    > > encourage bad posting styles. Top-posting is a hot-button issue for
    > > people who do not like to read things backwards.

    >
    > Bottom-posting is a hot-button issue for people who like to browse Usenet
    > efficiently!


    Yes, browsing efficiency is one of the major reasons for bottom-posting,
    that does make it a hot-button issue for many long-time Usenet
    participants.

    > OTOH, in-line posting is valuable for responding to lengthy posts where several
    > points need to be addressed...


    And in-line responses work much better if they proceed in a logical
    order -- statement, response, restatement, etc.

    --
    [email protected] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Braze your own bicycle frames. See
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>



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