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- 11-26-2005, 04:54 AM #1Tsunami AustraliaGuest
Foley U. Matthews wrote:
> On Stardate Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:07:42 +1100, KB <[email protected]>
> applied digits to the keyboard and routed the information from some
> kind of brain (presumably), thusly:
>
>> Intel Inside wrote:
>>> http://www.smh.com.au/
>>>
>>> "Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
>>> when the company switches to its proposed new-generation technology,
>>> beginning next year.
>>> As part of a major restructure announced last week by Telstra boss Sol
>>> Trujillo, Telstra plans to close its present three networks - GSM, CDMA and
>>> the newly launched 3G - and replace them with one system."
>> The author of that article doesn't have a f*#*ing clue.
>> Telstra have never said they will close THREE networks, only that they
>> will merge the current three into one. The present 3G GSM network
>> (operating at 2100MHz and co-shared with Hutchison) will be the PRIMARY
>> network
>
> well, eventually anyway, its the one for the future, and supposedly
> for the rural areas
>
>> and band used in the capital cities and dense regional cities
>> and a NEW 850MHz band for the 3G GSM network will be used OUTSIDE those
>> areas already covered by the current 3G GSM service at 2100MHz.
>
> ok, i guess that is how.
>
>> If you currently have a 3G GSM mobile with Telstra (or Hutchison) it
>> will still continue to work on the network for well over 3 years. You
>> just won't be able to use it outside of the capital cities or other
>> major population centres.
>>
>> It's also very unlikely that Telstra will shut off the 2G GSM network at
>> 900/1800MHz anytime soon since the current subscriber base is huge and
>> GSM at 900 is still the most common roaming GSM band for international
>
> i think they are saying by definition ericson 2gsm and ericson 3gsm
> comprise one network, although you can easily define them as 2gsm
> service and 3gsm service separately
>
>> visitors. Telstra's paired 8.33MHz of spectrum at 900MHz for 2G GSM
>> isn't going to be used for anything else so why turn it off?
>
> precisely, i dont think they are turning 2gsm off at all.
>
>> The present Telstra CDMA network at 880MHz however will most certainly
>> have to go ASAP to leave enough spectrum available for the 3GSM service.
>> Telstra only has enough spectrum to set up two 5MHz W-CDMA channels in
>> metro areas and three 5MHz W-CDMA channels in non-metro areas. Hence the
>> need to primarily deploy the 2100MHz band for metro areas like the
>> capital cities.
>>
>> Now if only the author of the article explained the details instead of
>> shooting off utter bull**** we might not have paranoid politicians
>> running around perpetuating the speculation to the media and public.
>
> it IS a pretty raw deal for cdma handset owners though, they try to
> justify this by claiming that people renew their handset every 18
> months on average...
>
> Foley U. Matthews. there | I believe in : Paying NO voluntary taxes, i.e.
> are no e's in my true email | Lotteries, Gambling... The Executive Producer
> Visit the Ellen Foley Info | is to blame!... and perhaps, Love (is/can be)
> http://www.go.to/ellen-foley | "Fully expecting to be Hurt!"
>
I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is supposed to work in rural areas.
Where I live, we have too many blackspots already with CDMA and GSM, so
how the hell do they expect us to get a "better" service out of 3g? CDMA
is widely used here by everyone being the area we are in, so I dare say
there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
› See More: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a newhandset
- 11-26-2005, 04:57 AM #2Tsunami AustraliaGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a newhandset
Michael wrote:
>>> Now if only the author of the article explained the details instead of
>>> shooting off utter bull**** we might not have paranoid politicians
>>> running around perpetuating the speculation to the media and public.
>> it IS a pretty raw deal for cdma handset owners though, they try to
>> justify this by claiming that people renew their handset every 18
>> months on average...
>
> Why is it a raw deal? CDMAs been around for 6 yrs now, there was never any
> guarantee that it would be around for any period of time, and people do
> replace their handsets ON AVERAGE about every two years, either through
> loss, stolen handsets, flat batteries which are uneconomical to replace,
> need for additional features, wanting color screens or better battery life,
> etc etc
>
>
Most people in the area I'm living in are still using Nokia 2280s, Nokia
1600s, Nokia 5110s, Kyocera QCPs etc. The colour screen craze doesn't
work here. So what demographical area are they using to state this,
probably as usual the cities.
- 11-26-2005, 05:05 AM #3KwyjiboGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
"Tsunami Australia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is supposed to work in rural areas.
> Where I live, we have too many blackspots already with CDMA and GSM,
> so how the hell do they expect us to get a "better" service out of
> 3g?
3G is basically a highly developed form of CDMA. (actually W-CDMA). Range
from the base station is the same and it doesn't suffer the 'digital cliff'
of GSM.
>CDMA is widely used here by everyone being the area we are in, so
> I dare say there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
I doubt it.
--
Kwyj
- 11-26-2005, 06:48 PM #4antGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
Tsunami Australia wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>> Why is it a raw deal? CDMAs been around for 6 yrs now, there was
>> never any guarantee that it would be around for any period of time,
>> and people do replace their handsets ON AVERAGE about every two
>> years, either through loss, stolen handsets, flat batteries which
>> are uneconomical to replace, need for additional features, wanting
>> color screens or better battery life, etc etc
>
> Most people in the area I'm living in are still using Nokia 2280s,
> Nokia 1600s, Nokia 5110s, Kyocera QCPs etc. The colour screen craze
> doesn't work here. So what demographical area are they using to state
> this, probably as usual the cities.
I'm still using a Nokia 5110. Nothing wrong with it, it works.
--
ant
http://www.dcita.gov.au/tel/do_not_call
to make your comment on proposals to limit telemarketing
- 11-26-2005, 06:58 PM #5MichaelGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
"Tsunami Australia" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Foley U. Matthews wrote:
> > On Stardate Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:07:42 +1100, KB <[email protected]>
> > applied digits to the keyboard and routed the information from some
> > kind of brain (presumably), thusly:
> >
> >> Intel Inside wrote:
> >>> http://www.smh.com.au/
> >>>
> >>> "Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new
handset
> >>> when the company switches to its proposed new-generation technology,
> >>> beginning next year.
> >>> As part of a major restructure announced last week by Telstra boss Sol
> >>> Trujillo, Telstra plans to close its present three networks - GSM,
CDMA and
> >>> the newly launched 3G - and replace them with one system."
> >> The author of that article doesn't have a f*#*ing clue.
> >> Telstra have never said they will close THREE networks, only that they
> >> will merge the current three into one. The present 3G GSM network
> >> (operating at 2100MHz and co-shared with Hutchison) will be the PRIMARY
> >> network
> >
> > well, eventually anyway, its the one for the future, and supposedly
> > for the rural areas
> >
> >> and band used in the capital cities and dense regional cities
> >> and a NEW 850MHz band for the 3G GSM network will be used OUTSIDE those
> >> areas already covered by the current 3G GSM service at 2100MHz.
> >
> > ok, i guess that is how.
> >
> >> If you currently have a 3G GSM mobile with Telstra (or Hutchison) it
> >> will still continue to work on the network for well over 3 years. You
> >> just won't be able to use it outside of the capital cities or other
> >> major population centres.
> >>
> >> It's also very unlikely that Telstra will shut off the 2G GSM network
at
> >> 900/1800MHz anytime soon since the current subscriber base is huge and
> >> GSM at 900 is still the most common roaming GSM band for international
> >
> > i think they are saying by definition ericson 2gsm and ericson 3gsm
> > comprise one network, although you can easily define them as 2gsm
> > service and 3gsm service separately
> >
> >> visitors. Telstra's paired 8.33MHz of spectrum at 900MHz for 2G GSM
> >> isn't going to be used for anything else so why turn it off?
> >
> > precisely, i dont think they are turning 2gsm off at all.
> >
> >> The present Telstra CDMA network at 880MHz however will most certainly
> >> have to go ASAP to leave enough spectrum available for the 3GSM
service.
> >> Telstra only has enough spectrum to set up two 5MHz W-CDMA channels in
> >> metro areas and three 5MHz W-CDMA channels in non-metro areas. Hence
the
> >> need to primarily deploy the 2100MHz band for metro areas like the
> >> capital cities.
> >>
> >> Now if only the author of the article explained the details instead of
> >> shooting off utter bull**** we might not have paranoid politicians
> >> running around perpetuating the speculation to the media and public.
> >
> > it IS a pretty raw deal for cdma handset owners though, they try to
> > justify this by claiming that people renew their handset every 18
> > months on average...
> >
> > Foley U. Matthews. there | I believe in : Paying NO voluntary
taxes, i.e.
> > are no e's in my true email | Lotteries, Gambling... The Executive
Producer
> > Visit the Ellen Foley Info | is to blame!... and perhaps, Love
(is/can be)
> > http://www.go.to/ellen-foley | "Fully expecting to be Hurt!"
> >
>
> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is supposed to work in rural areas.
The same way that GSM and CDMA "work". They provide coverage over a given
area, subject to the limitations of the terrain and usage
> Where I live, we have too many blackspots already with CDMA and GSM, so
> how the hell do they expect us to get a "better" service out of 3g? CDMA
No-one said you would get a "better" service out of 3g
> is widely used here by everyone being the area we are in, so I dare say
> there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
Doubt it
- 11-26-2005, 07:34 PM #6Rod SpeedGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
Michael <[email protected]> wrote
> Tsunami Australia <[email protected]> wrote
>> Foley U. Matthews wrote
>>> KB <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> Intel Inside wrote
>>>>> http://www.smh.com.au/
>>>>>
>>>>> "Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new
>>>>> handset when the company switches to its proposed new-generation
>>>>> technology, beginning next year.
>>>>> As part of a major restructure announced last week by Telstra
>>>>> boss Sol Trujillo, Telstra plans to close its present three
>>>>> networks - GSM, CDMA and the newly launched 3G - and replace them
>>>>> with one system."
>>>> The author of that article doesn't have a f*#*ing clue.
>>>> Telstra have never said they will close THREE networks, only that
>>>> they will merge the current three into one. The present 3G GSM
>>>> network (operating at 2100MHz and co-shared with Hutchison) will
>>>> be the PRIMARY network
>>>
>>> well, eventually anyway, its the one for the future, and supposedly
>>> for the rural areas
>>>
>>>> and band used in the capital cities and dense regional cities
>>>> and a NEW 850MHz band for the 3G GSM network will be used OUTSIDE
>>>> those areas already covered by the current 3G GSM service at
>>>> 2100MHz.
>>>
>>> ok, i guess that is how.
>>>
>>>> If you currently have a 3G GSM mobile with Telstra (or Hutchison)
>>>> it will still continue to work on the network for well over 3
>>>> years. You just won't be able to use it outside of the capital
>>>> cities or other major population centres.
>>>>
>>>> It's also very unlikely that Telstra will shut off the 2G GSM
>>>> network at 900/1800MHz anytime soon since the current subscriber
>>>> base is huge and GSM at 900 is still the most common roaming GSM
>>>> band for international
>>>
>>> i think they are saying by definition ericson 2gsm and ericson 3gsm
>>> comprise one network, although you can easily define them as 2gsm
>>> service and 3gsm service separately
>>>
>>>> visitors. Telstra's paired 8.33MHz of spectrum at 900MHz for 2G GSM
>>>> isn't going to be used for anything else so why turn it off?
>>>
>>> precisely, i dont think they are turning 2gsm off at all.
>>>
>>>> The present Telstra CDMA network at 880MHz however will most
>>>> certainly have to go ASAP to leave enough spectrum available for
>>>> the 3GSM service. Telstra only has enough spectrum to set up two
>>>> 5MHz W-CDMA channels in metro areas and three 5MHz W-CDMA channels
>>>> in non-metro areas. Hence the need to primarily deploy the 2100MHz
>>>> band for metro areas like the capital cities.
>>>>
>>>> Now if only the author of the article explained the details
>>>> instead of shooting off utter bull**** we might not have paranoid
>>>> politicians running around perpetuating the speculation to the
>>>> media and public.
>>>
>>> it IS a pretty raw deal for cdma handset owners though, they try to
>>> justify this by claiming that people renew their handset every 18
>>> months on average...
>> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is supposed to work in rural areas.
> The same way that GSM and CDMA "work".
Nope.
> They provide coverage over a given area, subject
> to the limitations of the terrain and usage
GSM doesnt work like that.
>> Where I live, we have too many blackspots already with CDMA and GSM,
>> so how the hell do they expect us to get a "better" service out of 3g?
> No-one said you would get a "better" service out of 3g
>> CDMA is widely used here by everyone being the area we
>> are in, so I dare say there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
> Doubt it
More fool you.
If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
- 11-27-2005, 01:28 AM #7MichaelGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
> >> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is supposed to work in rural areas.
>
> > The same way that GSM and CDMA "work".
>
> Nope.
>
> > They provide coverage over a given area, subject
> > to the limitations of the terrain and usage
>
> GSM doesnt work like that.
GSM does work like that. It doesnt shrink or breath, but it provides an
amount of coverage (up to 35k radius), and an amount of usage (x number of
channels capable of handling a call off that BTS)
> >> CDMA is widely used here by everyone being the area we
> >> are in, so I dare say there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
>
> > Doubt it
>
> More fool you.
>
> If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
> there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
It will be converted to 850mhz 3G and you get no say on it
>
>
- 11-27-2005, 02:52 AM #8Rod SpeedGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
Michael <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is
>>>> supposed to work in rural areas.
>>> The same way that GSM and CDMA "work".
>> Nope.
>>> They provide coverage over a given area, subject
>>> to the limitations of the terrain and usage
>> GSM doesnt work like that.
> GSM does work like that.
No it doesnt. Its got a digital cliff, you
stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning child.
> It doesnt shrink or breath,
Pathetic, really.
> but it provides an amount of coverage (up to 35k radius),
Nothing like your original pig ignorant drivel.
> and an amount of usage (x number of channels
> capable of handling a call off that BTS)
Irrelevant to your original pig ignorant drivel.
>>>> CDMA is widely used here by everyone being the area we
>>>> are in, so I dare say there will be a lot of unhappy campers.
>>> Doubt it
>> More fool you.
>> If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
>> there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
> It will be converted to 850mhz 3G
We'll see...
> and you get no say on it
The govt does, you silly little pig ignorant dunny cleaning ****wit child.
- 11-27-2005, 03:50 AM #9Lance LyonGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
"Rod Speed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
> there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
Clueless, as per usual.
Lance
http://sydneyferries.t35.com
- 11-27-2005, 12:24 PM #10Rod SpeedGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
Lance Lyon <[email protected]> wrote
> Rod Speed <[email protected]> wrote
>> If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
>> there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
> Clueless, as per usual.
There will be plenty pissed off even if
they just need a new handset, ****wit.
Those CDMA users dont change their handsets
at anything like the rate that telstra claims.
- 11-27-2005, 03:26 PM #11Graham FountainGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a newhandset
Rod Speed wrote:
> Lance Lyon <[email protected]> wrote
>> Rod Speed <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>> If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
>>> there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
>
>> Clueless, as per usual.
>
> There will be plenty pissed off even if
> they just need a new handset, ****wit.
Correct
>
> Those CDMA users dont change their handsets
> at anything like the rate that telstra claims.
Absolutely! I sell mobiles in a regional area and have noticed that CDMA
users tend to be far more conservative than the typical GSM user.
Around here, GSM phones are mostly bought for their gimmicks, mostly by
cashed up kids in their early 20's. A lot of these kids are buying new
handsets within 6 months of their last handset. The reason for buying is
mostly because they want the new 2MP camera or the new music player etc
etc, but also fairly frequently because it has been lost, stolen or has
gone for a swim - only occasionally because it has failed through
natural causes.
CDMA users OTOH tend to be older, more conservative, and just want a
handset that works. They tend not to care about cameras, bluetooth, mp3
playback, poly ringtones etc. Being more mature, they are less likely to
lose their phone, have it stolen, or drown it. Even if they are out of
contract, they don't see that as a reason to replace their phone. They
generally only replace their handset if it dies, or if they consider it
isn't delivering sufficient coverage. As a result I frequently see old
Qualcomm's, that they bought back when CDMA was first released. It is
rare to replace a handset that is under 3 years old. The other thing
about these customers is that they most likely have car kits and
external antennas in their car(s). Often they also have a compatible one
in their truck, tractor etc as well, and so replacing a mobile phone
becomes a big deal - preferably they want one that will be compatible
with their existing equipment, and if that is not possible it becomes a
very expensive exercise.
These customers will be extremely pissed off if they are forced to
replace a solution that is currently working, for another system that
will cost a fortune and possibly won't work as well. Especially if the
only reason Telstra is switching to that system is so that it can do
video phoning and high speed data.
I am curious about one thing though - currently Optarse buy their CDMA
off Telstra - if and when Telstra replace CDMA, will they have a similar
agreement with Optarse, or will they have to build their own network?
Perhaps the change is more about monopolising the market than it is
about providing better services.
>
>
- 11-27-2005, 04:56 PM #12Rod SpeedGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
Graham Fountain <[email protected]> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Lance Lyon <[email protected]> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> If they are actually allowed to pull the plug on CDMA.
>>>> there will be lots of unhappy campers, you watch.
>>> Clueless, as per usual.
>> There will be plenty pissed off even if
>> they just need a new handset, ****wit.
> Correct
>> Those CDMA users dont change their handsets
>> at anything like the rate that telstra claims.
> Absolutely! I sell mobiles in a regional area and have noticed that
> CDMA users tend to be far more conservative than the typical GSM user.
Yep. Different market entirely.
> Around here, GSM phones are mostly bought for their gimmicks, mostly by cashed
> up kids in their early 20's. A lot of these kids are buying new handsets
> within 6 months of their last handset.
And school kids often bugger up their phone quite a bit quicker
than that too. They normally buy the cheap prepaids.
> The reason for buying is mostly because they want the new 2MP camera or the
> new music player etc etc, but also fairly frequently because it has been lost,
> stolen or has gone for a swim
Or they have ****ed it by dropping it etc.
> - only occasionally because it has failed through natural causes.
Yep, it usually gets killed well before that with stupid kids.
There's certainly plenty that keep basic GSM
handsets for as long as they keep working too.
> CDMA users OTOH tend to be older, more conservative, and just want a handset
> that works. They tend not to care about cameras, bluetooth, mp3 playback, poly
> ringtones etc. Being more mature, they are less likely to lose their phone,
> have it stolen, or drown it. Even if they are out of contract, they don't see
> that as a reason to replace their phone. They generally only replace their
> handset if it dies, or if they consider it isn't delivering sufficient
> coverage. As a result I frequently see old Qualcomm's, that they bought back
> when CDMA was first released.
Still quite a few of the original Gullivers around too,
even with the problem with replacement batterys.
> It is rare to replace a handset that is under 3 years old. The other thing
> about these customers is that they most likely have car kits and external
> antennas in their car(s). Often they also have a compatible one in their
> truck, tractor etc as well, and so replacing a mobile phone becomes a big
> deal - preferably they want one that will be compatible with their existing
> equipment, and if
> that is not possible it becomes a very expensive exercise.
> These customers will be extremely pissed off if they are forced to replace a
> solution that is currently working,
Yep, that fool Lyon has never ever had a ****ing clue.
No surprise that it can only manage to get a job in the
last great sheltered workshop in the country, Telstra.
> for another system that will cost a fortune
They wont be able to see any reason why they
should have to replace what is working fine either.
Specially when so much of the cdma network
has been paid for by the govt directly.
> and possibly won't work as well. Especially if the only reason Telstra is
> switching to that system is so that it can do video phoning and high speed
> data.
Its more that the stupid mex has stupid ideas about
the cost per customer. So stupid that that is absolutely
guaranteed with mobile services outside the capital citys.
> I am curious about one thing though - currently Optarse buy their CDMA off
> Telstra - if and when Telstra replace CDMA, will they have a similar agreement
> with Optarse,
I doubt it unless its forced on them by the ACCC.
> or will they have to build their own network?
To some extent they've been doing that already with
lots of new GSM bases outside the capital citys.
Doesnt have anything like as good a coverage as the
CDMA network tho, particularly outside the towns.
> Perhaps the change is more about monopolising the market than it is about
> providing better services.
Yep, thats clearly what its about. Tho to be fair telstra
would prefer to have just one 3G mobile network country wide.
They dont resell the GSM network much at all currently.
- 11-29-2005, 02:22 PM #13MichaelGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
"Rod Speed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Michael <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >>>> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is
> >>>> supposed to work in rural areas.
>
> >>> The same way that GSM and CDMA "work".
>
> >> Nope.
>
> >>> They provide coverage over a given area, subject
> >>> to the limitations of the terrain and usage
>
> >> GSM doesnt work like that.
>
> > GSM does work like that.
>
> No it doesnt. Its got a digital cliff, you
> stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning child.
Which is what I said Rod, a network provides coverage over a GIVEN area
(35km radius), SUBJECT TO limitations of terrain and usage.
> > but it provides an amount of coverage (up to 35k radius),
Exactly the same, sorry you are too retarded to understand
- 11-29-2005, 02:43 PM #14Rod SpeedGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
Michael <[email protected]> wrote
> Rod Speed <[email protected]> wrote
>> Michael <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>> I'm curious as to how the hell 3g is
>>>>>> supposed to work in rural areas.
>>>>> The same way that GSM and CDMA "work".
>>>> Nope.
>>>>> They provide coverage over a given area, subject
>>>>> to the limitations of the terrain and usage
>>>> GSM doesnt work like that.
>>> GSM does work like that.
>> No it doesnt. Its got a digital cliff, you
>> stupid pig ignorant dunny cleaning child.
> Which is what I said Rod, a network provides coverage over a GIVEN
> area (35km radius), SUBJECT TO limitations of terrain and usage.
You didnt even mention the digital cliff in your original, you
silly little pig ignorant lying dunny cleaning ****wit child.
>>> but it provides an amount of coverage (up to 35k radius),
> Exactly the same, sorry you are too retarded to understand
That came later, you silly little pig ignorant
lying dunny cleaning ****wit child.
- 11-29-2005, 04:55 PM #15Lance LyonGuest
Re: Telstra's 8.4 million mobile-phone users will need to buy a new handset
"Rod Speed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>> but it provides an amount of coverage (up to 35k radius),
>
>> Exactly the same, sorry you are too retarded to understand
>
> That came later, you silly little pig ignorant
> lying dunny cleaning ****wit child.
>
Watch him wriggle......
Lance
http://sydneyferries.t35.com
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