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  1. #16
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    Randall Ainsworth wrote:

    > Granted, none are perfect. But intentionally crippling Bluetooth, for
    > example, so that you can't transfer wallpaper and ringtones without
    > collecting a fee - that's a pretty crappy business practice. And if you
    > have one of the new Verizon music-enabled phones, you have to buy their
    > software to make it work. That just sucks.


    I'm reminded of the comedian that played an oil company executive,

    "Hi, I'm here to explain the law of supply and demand, it's very simple.
    We have all the supply, so we can demand whatever the f$%k we want."
    Verizon _knows_ that for customers for whom coverage is the primary
    concern, that these customers won't leave over something like having to
    pay for transferring wallpaper and ringtones, since these customers are
    unlikely to ever do either.

    > I have TMO, partly because I write some of their knowledge base
    > articles. They've got a good system and so far, coverage hasn't been a
    > major factor.


    T-Mobile coverage is okay in some places, but non-existent in many
    areas. My neighborhood doesn't have it, since a NIMBY group has
    successfully stopped a new cell installation that would cover my area.



    See More: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular




  2. #17
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:51:41 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Randall Ainsworth wrote:


    >> I have TMO, partly because I write some of their knowledge base
    >> articles. They've got a good system and so far, coverage hasn't been a
    >> major factor.

    >
    >T-Mobile coverage is okay in some places, but non-existent in many
    >areas. My neighborhood doesn't have it, since a NIMBY group has
    >successfully stopped a new cell installation that would cover my area.


    All carriers have holes. That said, the T-Mobile network, formerly the
    Cingular "orange" network, actually has good coverage of the San
    Francisco Bay Area.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  3. #18
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 07:49:39 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Randall Ainsworth wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>, SMS
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Not really, as Verizon's gain in market share is very small, it's really
    >>> Sprint and T-Mobile that have had the biggest gains, percentage-wise,
    >>> while the Cingular percentage loss is very large, statistically speaking.

    >>
    >> I would avoid those who intentionally cripple their hardware and do
    >> everything they can to get into your wallet (Verizon).

    >
    >Yet in terms of ARPU, Verizon is just a tad higher than Cingular, and
    >that's very recently and due to Verizon's faster deployment of 3G.


    There's no evidence of that.

    >Sprint and T-Mobile have significantly higher ARPUs than Verizon. I
    >think it may be because Verizon and Cingular have more business
    >customers, whose employees are not downloading custom ringtones, sending
    >photos, or watching videos, on the network.


    Actually due to discounted business plans.

    Sprint is now being helped by the high ARPU of Nextel.

    >The crippling of hardware is a definite annoyance, but again, coverage
    >trumps most everything in making a choice of carrier.


    Depends on your personal priorities, especially since coverage is often
    comparable between more than one carrier.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  4. #19
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:03:12 -0700, "Mij Adyaw" <[email protected]>
    wrote in <Qa8tg.11448$Nv.7700@fed1read10>:

    >Why does Sprint have better sound quality than Verizon? I have noticed this
    >on several different phone models. Does Sprint use a different codec?


    The biggest difference comes from network load, since CDMA call quality
    degrades as network load increases. Verizon tends to have higher
    network load in more areas than Sprint, giving Sprint the edge in call
    quality in those areas, but it's just the opposite in other areas (like
    the Tri-Valley part of the SF Bay Area, where Sprint has the worst call
    quality of any major carrier).

    An advantage of GSM over CDMA is that call quality isn't affected by
    network load.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  5. #20
    Beavis
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    In article <[email protected]>,
    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:

    > An advantage of GSM over CDMA is that call quality isn't affected by
    > network load.


    True. But on the other hand, a CDMA tower can allow more handsets to
    make decent calls, without getting a "network busy" message, as I used
    to get with AT&T (TDMA) constantly.



  6. #21
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    In alt.cellular.verizon Mij Adyaw <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Why does Sprint have better sound quality than Verizon? I have noticed this
    > on several different phone models. Does Sprint use a different codec?
    >


    I really don't know, but I assume so.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1




  7. #22
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:13:06 GMT, Beavis <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> An advantage of GSM over CDMA is that call quality isn't affected by
    >> network load.

    >
    >True. But on the other hand, a CDMA tower can allow more handsets to
    >make decent calls, without getting a "network busy" message, as I used
    >to get with AT&T (TDMA) constantly.


    GSM is more efficient than D-AMPS ("TDMA"), with spectral efficiency
    that's roughly comparable to CDMA.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  8. #23
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    Beavis wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> An advantage of GSM over CDMA is that call quality isn't affected by
    >> network load.

    >
    > True. But on the other hand, a CDMA tower can allow more handsets to
    > make decent calls, without getting a "network busy" message, as I used
    > to get with AT&T (TDMA) constantly.


    If you're stationary, then on GSM/TDMA you can at least be assured that
    your call quality won't go down during the call. However if you're
    moving, and you move into a cell that is at capacity, your call drops.
    Dropped calls have been a big problem on Cingular, which is why they
    added so many new towers, and why they now are advertising that they've
    solved the dropped call issue.



  9. #24
    Glenn
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    John Navas wrote:
    >
    > GSM is more efficient than D-AMPS ("TDMA"), with spectral efficiency
    > that's roughly comparable to CDMA.
    >


    However, high spectral efficiency is contrary to maximizing information
    throughput. The Shannon equation, C=B*log2(S/N+1), shows that to
    maximize information capacity and/or minimize required S/N of a channel,
    one needs to use more rather than less B (spectrum). Thus when spectral
    efficiency goes down, information (call) delivery goes up.

    If one is limited by available spectrum, as are the carriers (and dialup
    telephone lines) increasing spectral efficiency may make business sense.
    However, it doesn't make purely technical sense if the goal is to
    maximize capacity/coverage. For that, you want to spread the signal as
    wide as is possible, with resulting performance approaching the Shannon
    limit.

    Glenn



  10. #25
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    In alt.cellular.cingular John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > GSM is more efficient than D-AMPS ("TDMA"), with spectral efficiency
    > that's roughly comparable to CDMA.
    >


    Hmm ... a contentious arguement at best. Doing what you do best, I submit to
    Google and find:

    "Spectral Efficiency

    Channel capacity in a TDMA system is fixed and indisputable. Each channel
    carries a finite number of "slots", and you can never accommodate a new caller
    once each of those slots is filled. Spectral efficiency varies from one
    technology to another, but computing a precise number is still a contentious
    issue. For example, GSM provides 8 slots in a channel 200 kHz wide, while iDEN
    provides 3 slots in a channel only 25 kHz wide. GSM therefore consumes 25 kHz
    per user, while IS-136 consumes only 8.333 kHz per user. When Direct Connect
    is used on iDEN, 6 users can be stuffed into a single channel, thus only 4.166
    kHz is consumer per user. There is also a new 6:1 interconnect CODEC coming
    for iDEN which will allow 6 phone users per channel.

    One would be sorely tempted to proclaim that iDEN has 3 to 6 times the
    capacity of GSM. In a one-cell system this is certainly true, but once we
    start deploying multiple cells and channel reuse the situation becomes more
    complex. Due to GSM's better error management and frequency hopping the
    interference of a co-channel site is greatly reduced. This allows frequencies
    to be reused more frequently without a degradation in the overall quality of
    the service.

    Capacity is measured in "calls per cell per MHz". An GSM system using N=4
    reuse (this means you have 4 different sets of frequencies to spread out
    around town) the figure is 5.0 We get an efficiency value of 6.6 for N=3.
    Unfortunately I could not find any figures for iDEN systems, but based on
    similar figures released for the IS-136 system we can expect efficiency values
    of 6.0 to 10.0.

    Computing this figure for CDMA requires that certain assumptions are made.
    Formulas have been devised, and using very optimistic assumptions CDMA can
    provide a whopping 45 users per cell per MHz. However, when using more
    pessimistic (and perhaps more realistic) assumptions, the value is 12. That
    still gives CDMA an almost 2:1 advantage over GSM, but questionable advantage
    over a well-implement iDEN system."

    http://www.arcx.com/sites/CDMAvsTDMA.htm

    This article is about two years old, so perhaps some things have changed ...
    as they always do. However, looking back in time, your litany remains the
    same, so if agree that this information was accurate two years ago, then what
    you were saying two years ago is suspect. So, is information given here
    invalid?

    http://tinyurl.com/k9lep ... an argument older than the article minimizing
    the differences between CDMA and GSM when it comes to spectral efficiency.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1




  11. #26
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    Glenn wrote:
    > John Navas wrote:
    >>
    >> GSM is more efficient than D-AMPS ("TDMA"), with spectral efficiency
    >> that's roughly comparable to CDMA.
    >>

    >
    > However, high spectral efficiency is contrary to maximizing information
    > throughput. The Shannon equation, C=B*log2(S/N+1), shows that to
    > maximize information capacity and/or minimize required S/N of a channel,
    > one needs to use more rather than less B (spectrum). Thus when spectral
    > efficiency goes down, information (call) delivery goes up.
    >


    CDMA is much more efficient at the use of spectrum than GSM. Here is the
    table of Spectral Efficiencies from the study by Deutsche Bank Securities.

    Users per 5 Mhz Relative to AMPS
    Min Max Min Max
    --- --- --- ---
    AMPS 8 8 1.0x 1.0x
    GSM 21 23 2.6x 2.9x
    TDMA 24 24 3.0x 3.0x
    GSM w/AMR 28 34 3.5x 4.3x
    GSM FFR w/AMR 34 53 4.3x 6.6x
    CDMA (IS-95A) 51 66 6.4x 8.3x
    CDMA2000 1X 105 120 13.1x 15.0x
    W-CDMA 62 95 7.8x 11.9x




  12. #27
    Mij Adyaw
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    Cingular states that they have an independent study that they have the
    fewest dropped calls of any wireless provider.
    (any most pigs are capable of flight too)

    "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Beavis wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> An advantage of GSM over CDMA is that call quality isn't affected by
    >>> network load.

    >>
    >> True. But on the other hand, a CDMA tower can allow more handsets to
    >> make decent calls, without getting a "network busy" message, as I used to
    >> get with AT&T (TDMA) constantly.

    >
    > If you're stationary, then on GSM/TDMA you can at least be assured that
    > your call quality won't go down during the call. However if you're moving,
    > and you move into a cell that is at capacity, your call drops. Dropped
    > calls have been a big problem on Cingular, which is why they added so many
    > new towers, and why they now are advertising that they've solved the
    > dropped call issue.






  13. #28
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:16:29 -0700, Glenn <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >John Navas wrote:
    >>
    >> GSM is more efficient than D-AMPS ("TDMA"), with spectral efficiency
    >> that's roughly comparable to CDMA.

    >
    >However, high spectral efficiency is contrary to maximizing information
    >throughput. The Shannon equation, C=B*log2(S/N+1), shows that to
    >maximize information capacity and/or minimize required S/N of a channel,
    >one needs to use more rather than less B (spectrum). Thus when spectral
    >efficiency goes down, information (call) delivery goes up.
    >
    >If one is limited by available spectrum, as are the carriers (and dialup
    >telephone lines) increasing spectral efficiency may make business sense.
    >However, it doesn't make purely technical sense if the goal is to
    >maximize capacity/coverage. For that, you want to spread the signal as
    >wide as is possible, with resulting performance approaching the Shannon
    >limit.


    My comments are based on real-world Erlangs, not Shannon theory.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  14. #29
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:01:40 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Beavis wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> An advantage of GSM over CDMA is that call quality isn't affected by
    >>> network load.

    >>
    >> True. But on the other hand, a CDMA tower can allow more handsets to
    >> make decent calls, without getting a "network busy" message, as I used
    >> to get with AT&T (TDMA) constantly.

    >
    >If you're stationary, then on GSM/TDMA you can at least be assured that
    >your call quality won't go down during the call. However if you're
    >moving, and you move into a cell that is at capacity, your call drops.


    True, but that's extremely rare. Just as CDMA calls can be degraded to
    unusability or dropped because of cell "breathing" under load, one of a
    number of CDMA problems. In practice, these aren't significant issues.

    >Dropped calls have been a big problem on Cingular,


    Not true.

    >which is why they
    >added so many new towers,


    That's to increase coverage. It has little to do with existing network
    capacity.

    >and why they now are advertising that they've
    >solved the dropped call issue.


    That's not what they are advertising -- that's your anti-Cingular spin.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  15. #30
    John Richards
    Guest

    Re: Comparing Verizon vs Cingular

    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > All carriers have holes. That said, the T-Mobile network, formerly the
    > Cingular "orange" network, actually has good coverage of the San
    > Francisco Bay Area.


    So it does. I have no complaints in that regard after switching from
    Sprint to T-Mobile four months ago.

    --
    John Richards (SF North Bay area)



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