Cancelling an Orange contract ahead of time

Hi all -

I've been with Orange for almost 10 years (and haven't had a new phone
in three years), but am now so sick of their utterly useless customer
service that I've deserted for T-Mobile.

I've just ordered a Vario II on a pocket-money contract for a few pence
upfront from the T-Mobile website (weirdly, there was one link on the
website to get the same phone on the same tariff - Flext 30 plus
Web-N-Walk - for £89 plus £32.50 a month, and another link to get it
for £69 plus £25 a month. I took the latter, strangely enough).

All well and good, you might say - pay off the remaining 28 days, get
the PAC, port the number, and enjoy the T-Mobile experience. But as
always, there's a hitch: in February, someone called me saying that
they were from Orange and asked me if I wanted a 10% discount as a
loyal customer. I said "yes", and thought no more about it.

Unfortunately, as I found when I called Orange trying to get a better
tarrif a few months later, this person wasn't from Orange, but was
employed by a bunch of privateers lied to Orange that I'd agreed to a
new 12-month contract. Which obviously I hadn't, as I had a 2-year-old
phone that I knew might die at any point. Orange were no help, claiming
I ought to take it up with the privateers - however, unsurprisingly,
they don't answer their phone...

I know this contract is not legal, that it's Orange's fault, and that
if Orange were to take me to court enforcing my payment of the terms
that I would win. However, I'm keen to keep my current phone number,
and to not have a dispute on my credit rating for however long it takes
to reach court, to the point where I'd be willing to give the b-st-rds
£100 or so to give me the PAC and never darken my door again.

So:

1) Is there any way I can get my PAC without paying off the contract? I
doubt this, but stranger things have happened, and I relish a fight
enough that if I can do this I'd be willing to go to court over the
outstanding bills...

2) (if not) what's the minimum that I can pay Orange to get out of the
contract? Currently my base tarrif is £19.50 and I pay another £10 or
so for additional SMS messages and GPRS access - can I cancel all the
additional options and just bung them £19.50 * 5 months to February?
Can I move further down to anything cheaper? In general, if I move to
the absolute cheapest possible tarrif tomorrow (which I think is
Dolphin at £19.00), can I immediately pay the contract off on that
tarrif?

Thanks very much for any responses...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

---

› See More: Cancelling an Orange contract ahead of time

John B wrote:

> 1) Is there any way I can get my PAC without paying off the contract?

No

> 2) (if not) what's the minimum that I can pay Orange to get out of the
> contract? Currently my base tarrif is £19.50 and I pay another £10 or
> so for additional SMS messages and GPRS access - can I cancel all the
> additional options and just bung them £19.50 * 5 months to February?

Yes

> Can I move further down to anything cheaper? In general, if I move to
> the absolute cheapest possible tarrif tomorrow (which I think is
> Dolphin at £19.00), can I immediately pay the contract off on that
> tarrif?

Should be able to, but the tariff change will only take effect from
your next billing date - change the tariff now, ring back after the
billing date and then request PAC.

Once you've got it, take them to small claims court for the settlement
figure/whatever you figure that they owe you, with any supporting
evidence that you have.

Good luck.

Tariq

"John B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Hi all -

*SNIP*

in February, someone called me saying that
they were from Orange and asked me if I wanted a 10% discount as a
loyal customer. I said "yes", and thought no more about it.

Oh dear. If anyone phones and offers you £25million and wants your bank
details, please say "NO". All you said you would like was a 10% discount.
Anyone could say "yes I would like a 10% discount". It's only when they
tape you agreeing to a new contract with them the trouble starts - or when
you sign papers they send. Don't forget a lot of sales will lie to make a
living. You sound the type that would buy expensive and useless phone
insurance or extended warranties that run in parallel to manufacturers
warranties.

Unfortunately, as I found when I called Orange trying to get a better
tarrif a few months later, this person wasn't from Orange, but was
employed by a bunch of privateers lied to Orange that I'd agreed to a
new 12-month contract.

Well it's a simple case of asking Orange to provide the copy of the contract
in your name with your signature. If the company took it out in your name
without your knowledge then report it to the police as fraud. Also request
Orange does the same.
No contract = no proof. Forged contract=prosecution. Orange will not speak
to someone on your behalf to extend a contract, so maybe you're not telling
us the whole story.

Orange were no help, claiming
I ought to take it up with the privateers - however, unsurprisingly,
they don't answer their phone...

Unless Orange can provide proof that YOU signed a contract then you do not
need to deal with anyone apart from Orange. They will not speak to anyone
else about your account. If you signed a contract with a third party to
supply a product from orange then it's your own fault.


I know this contract is not legal, that it's Orange's fault, and that
if Orange were to take me to court enforcing my payment of the terms
that I would win. However, I'm keen to keep my current phone number,

What contract? So are you now saying you have signed a contract with a
third party?
Orange can not enforce a contract between you and a third party, but they
can recover any payment due to them for using their services. There is a
slight difference. A contract IS legally binding, so by signing it you have
agreed to be bound by the terms.
If there is NO contract then there is nothing to enforce, so you wouldn't be
going to court. Forget about keeping a number when you claim fraud has
taken place!


and to not have a dispute on my credit rating for however long it takes
to reach court, to the point where I'd be willing to give the b-st-rds
£100 or so to give me the PAC and never darken my door again.

You can't be taken to Court if there is no contract. You can be taken to
court if you do not pay a bill from Orange for using their services. Again
there is a difference and you are getting confused - again! You get given a
bad credit rating for not paying your bill. So you want to give £100 to a
company? For what, according to you there is no contract with orange, but
there is with a third party! Why back down unless ou are wrong.

So:

1) Is there any way I can get my PAC without paying off the contract? I
doubt this, but stranger things have happened, and I relish a fight
enough that if I can do this I'd be willing to go to court over the
outstanding bills...

Oh so now you're saying you haven't paid the bill ? Well expect to end up
in court. You have used a service and don't seem to want to pay for it.
Why bother having a phone?


2) what's the minimum that I can pay Orange to get out of the
contract?

You said you didn't have a contract with orange, you implied it was with a
third party.
Again, you need to sort this out in your own head FIRST! If your contract
is with Orange you will need to contact them.

Currently my base tarrif is £19.50 and I pay another £10 or
so for additional SMS messages and GPRS access - can I cancel all the
additional options and just bung them £19.50 * 5 months to February?

If your contract is with Orange you need to contact them.

Can I move further down to anything cheaper? In general, if I move to
the absolute cheapest possible tarrif tomorrow (which I think is
Dolphin at £19.00), can I immediately pay the contract off on that
tarrif?

Once again, if your contract is with Orange, speak to them.

Thanks very much for any responses...

It's a pleasure. Just ask yourself -

1. Which company is my phone contract with.
2. Have I bothered to pay the bill.
3. Have I looked at the copies of the contracts I have signed.


--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

james wrote:
> *SNIP*
[quoting fixed; crossposted to uk.legal]
>> in February, someone called me saying that
>> they were from Orange and asked me if I wanted a 10% discount as a
>> loyal customer. I said "yes", and thought no more about it.
>
> Oh dear. If anyone phones and offers you £25million and wants your bank
> details, please say "NO". All you said you would like was a 10% discount.
> Anyone could say "yes I would like a 10% discount". It's only when they
> tape you agreeing to a new contract with them the trouble starts - or when
> you sign papers they send. Don't forget a lot of sales will lie to make a
> living. You sound the type that would buy expensive and useless phone
> insurance or extended warranties that run in parallel to manufacturers
> warranties.

Well, yes. I didn't know, at the time, that it was common for mobile
telesales people to lie that they were working for the network rather
than for intermediaries.

>> Unfortunately, as I found when I called Orange trying to get a better
>> tarrif a few months later, this person wasn't from Orange, but was
>> employed by a bunch of privateers lied to Orange that I'd agreed to a
>> new 12-month contract.
>
> Well it's a simple case of asking Orange to provide the copy of the contract
> in your name with your signature. If the company took it out in your name
> without your knowledge then report it to the police as fraud. Also request
> Orange does the same.
> No contract = no proof. Forged contract=prosecution. Orange will not speak
> to someone on your behalf to extend a contract, so maybe you're not telling
> us the whole story.

Orange claim that Zebra Telecom took out a contract with-me-with-them,
based on my assent on the phone to their terms. In actual fact, their
salesperson posed as an Orange customer services representative
offering me a new tarrif. Orange claim that this represents a legally
binding contract between me and Zebra Telecom, and that they can't
revoke Zebra Telecom's contract with me. Yet at the same time, I've
continued to be billed by Orange apparently on their behalf and have
never heard anything from Zebra Telecom.

If Zebra Telecom's salesperson sent Orange a contract claiming that
they had my word-of-mouth assent to a new contract, and Orange are
acting as Zebra Telecom's agent, then I imagine Zebra Telecom's
salesperson has technically defrauded me. Certainly, my last *signed*
contract with Orange is when I bought my last telephone from them in
2004.

>> Orange were no help, claiming
>> I ought to take it up with the privateers - however, unsurprisingly,
>> they don't answer their phone...
>
> Unless Orange can provide proof that YOU signed a contract then you do not
> need to deal with anyone apart from Orange. They will not speak to anyone
> else about your account. If you signed a contract with a third party to
> supply a product from orange then it's your own fault.

I didn't *sign a contract* with a third party - Zebra Telecom claim I
agreed to a new contract over the phone, and never sent anything in
writing. I didn't realise until I spoke to Orange months later that the
agent I spoke to wasn't an Orange customer services agent.

>> I know this contract is not legal, that it's Orange's fault, and that
>> if Orange were to take me to court enforcing my payment of the terms
>> that I would win. However, I'm keen to keep my current phone number,

> What contract? So are you now saying you have signed a contract with a
> third party?

No. A third party claim that I've agreed to an *oral* contract with a
third party. They also claim they sent me an SMS that confirmed the
oral contract, but a) I never received it and b) I'm not convinced that
it would be worth the paper it wasn't written on even if I had received
it.

> Orange can not enforce a contract between you and a third party, but they
> can recover any payment due to them for using their services. There is a
> slight difference. A contract IS legally binding, so by signing it you have
> agreed to be bound by the terms.

Agred.

> If there is NO contract then there is nothing to enforce, so you wouldn'tbe
> going to court. Forget about keeping a number when you claim fraud has
> taken place!

Well, quite. I'm entirely certain that Zebra Telecom have defrauded me;
I don't give a **** either way what happens to Zebra Telecom; but I
want to keep my Orange phone number because losing it would cause
hassle and possible financial loss.

>> and to not have a dispute on my credit rating for however long it takes
>> to reach court, to the point where I'd be willing to give the b-st-rds
>> £100 or so to give me the PAC and never darken my door again.
>
> You can't be taken to Court if there is no contract. You can be taken to
> court if you do not pay a bill from Orange for using their services. Again
> there is a difference and you are getting confused - again! You get given a
> bad credit rating for not paying your bill. So you want to give £100 to a
> company? For what, according to you there is no contract with orange, but
> there is with a third party! Why back down unless ou are wrong.

At the moment, I pay my Orange bill so there's no dispute. If I were to
stop paying my Orange bill, Orange might dispute whether I have the
right to do so. I have genuinely no understanding of how the deal
between Zebra Telecom and Orange works, so I don't understand who would
persue me if I stopped paying my Orange bill. However, given that
between them Orange and Zebra believe I'm subject to a 12-month
contract with *somebody*, I believe that if I stopped paying the bill
then *somebody* might make my life difficult.

>> So:
>>
>> 1) Is there any way I can get my PAC without paying off the contract? I
>> doubt this, but stranger things have happened, and I relish a fight
>> enough that if I can do this I'd be willing to go to court over the
>> outstanding bills...
>
> Oh so now you're saying you haven't paid the bill ? Well expect to end up
> in court. You have used a service and don't seem to want to pay for it.
> Why bother having a phone?

I've got an Orange phone. I've never not paid an Orange bill. I've just
ordered a T-Mobile phone. I don't have a legal contract binding me to
Orange. Therefore, I'd like to get my PAC and migrate to T-Mobile.
Unfortunately, Orange believe I'm subject to a contract. I'd ideally
like to get a PAC, move to T-Mobile, stop paying Orange money, and let
Orange or Zebra or whoever the hell wrongly believes I owe them money
sue me.

>> 2) what's the minimum that I can pay Orange to get out of the
>> contract?
>
> You said you didn't have a contract with orange, you implied it was with a
> third party.
> Again, you need to sort this out in your own head FIRST! If your contract
> is with Orange you will need to contact them.

I don't have a legal contract with anyone, apart from the contract I
took out 3 years ago where I agreed to stay with Orange for 12 months.
Orange believe I have 5 months remaining on a legal contract with them,
because of Zebra Telecom's actions in February this year. I want to
know how much it will cost me to pay off the contract that doesn't
legally exist but that does exist in Orange's mind, because I'd rather
spend £100 than have a big fight with a big company. Yes, this is
pathetic, but since I may be looking for a mortgage soon I can't afford
to compromise my credit rating for a relatively minor sum of money.

>> Currently my base tarrif is £19.50 and I pay another £10 or
>> so for additional SMS messages and GPRS access - can I cancel all the
>> additional options and just bung them £19.50 * 5 months to February?
>
> If your contract is with Orange you need to contact them.

I've tried speaking with them re absolute cancellation. I'd like to be
armed with the facts on the absolute minimum due to them if I need to
weigh up the pros and cons of suing them and/or Zebra Telecom compared
to the time, money and credit rating points that the fight wil cost me.

>> Can I move further down to anything cheaper? In general, if I move to
>> the absolute cheapest possible tarrif tomorrow (which I think is
>> Dolphin at £19.00), can I immediately pay the contract off on that
>> tarrif?
>
> Once again, if your contract is with Orange, speak to them.

See above.

>> Thanks very much for any responses...
>
> It's a pleasure. Just ask yourself -
>
> 1. Which company is my phone contract with.
> 2. Have I bothered to pay the bill.
> 3. Have I looked at the copies of the contracts I have signed.
>

1) my signed phone contract is with Orange, and is terminable on 28
days' notice now I'm past the minimum term. Orange claim I have a new
contract with Zebra, which is the whole problem.

2) yes, and the only reason I would stop would be because I was
disputing the validity of the contract.

3) yes, and the only contract I've signed is with Orange signed in
2004.

I understand there are a lot of idiots out there asking stupid
questions. I'd like to reassure you I'm not one of them, and I'm
genuinely amazed that a major plc I've dealt with for 10 years is
holding me to the word of a telesalesperson working for a fly-by-night
operator who I'd never have chosen to deal with and who I only did deal
with because they lied that they were Orange. I don't like the idea of
paying £100 because I was stupid enough to trust the word of a
salesperson on the phone, and the only reason I'm considering it is
because the other alternatives would cost me more in time/fees/losing
my number.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

> I don't like the idea of paying £100 because I was stupid enough to trust the word of >a salesperson .

Looking on the bright side this £100 lesson may save you many times
that in the future.


J

On 12 Sep 2006 16:58:12 -0700, "John B" <[email protected]> wrote:

>n actual fact, their
>salesperson posed as an Orange customer services representative
>offering me a new tarrif. Orange claim that this represents a legally
>binding contract between me and Zebra Telecom, and that they can't
>revoke Zebra Telecom's contract with me. Yet at the same time, I've
>continued to be billed by Orange apparently on their behalf and have
>never heard anything from Zebra Telecom.

That's why the scammers target Orange customers rather than those on
other networks.

Orange are prepared to go along with these swindles. It's a pity
nobody has yet taken legal action against Orange about it.


--

Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
Browse now while stocks last!

John B wrote:
> Hi all -
>
> I've been with Orange for almost 10 years (and haven't had a new phone
> in three years), but am now so sick of their utterly useless customer
> service that I've deserted for T-Mobile.
>
> I've just ordered a Vario II on a pocket-money contract for a few pence
> upfront from the T-Mobile website (weirdly, there was one link on the
> website to get the same phone on the same tariff - Flext 30 plus
> Web-N-Walk - for £89 plus £32.50 a month, and another link to get it
> for £69 plus £25 a month. I took the latter, strangely enough).

er... I think that may be £25 a month for 3 months...
However, I've been looking at the T-Mobile plans and the same handset
and they look pretty good - Flext 35 at £30 a month plus £70 for the
handset.
Do you know if this handset is the same one as the M3100 from Orange?

In article <[email protected]>, NickD says...
>
>
>John B wrote:
>> Hi all -
>>
>> I've been with Orange for almost 10 years (and haven't had a new phone
>> in three years), but am now so sick of their utterly useless customer
>> service that I've deserted for T-Mobile.
>>
>> I've just ordered a Vario II on a pocket-money contract for a few pence
>> upfront from the T-Mobile website (weirdly, there was one link on the
>> website to get the same phone on the same tariff - Flext 30 plus
>> Web-N-Walk - for =A389 plus =A332.50 a month, and another link to get it
>> for =A369 plus =A325 a month. I took the latter, strangely enough).
>
>er... I think that may be =A325 a month for 3 months...
>However, I've been looking at the T-Mobile plans and the same handset
>and they look pretty good - Flext 35 at =A330 a month plus =A370 for the
>handset.

I've just got one on Flext 20 WebNWalk. The handset was £89, and the tarrif was
£27.50 a month ... but they're offering £5 a month discount for life right now !
So it's only £22.50 a month. And there's an additional £7.50 a month discount
for the first three months ! So I pay £15 x 3 then £22.50 x 15 (cos Flext
contracts run for 18 months).

>Do you know if this handset is the same one as the M3100 from Orange?

It sure is ! Mine arrived yesterday, and it's wicked

Do it quick, before they change their minds

Hi John

In theory, you're right - Orange shouldn't let these people pretending
to be Orange direct get away with it.

In practice, in order to get your PAC code, I would personally do as
you suggest and drop down to the lowest tariff possible - this will not
be put into effect on Orange until your billing date, so ring up after
that date to get a buyout price and PAC.

(An alternative solution is to let the tariff run and divert calls to
your new phone. You can get your voicemails from your t-mobile phone
via 07973 100123 after you've set up a pin code via your Orange phone.
Downside to this is that you will not be alerted to voicemails, nor can
you forward texts. Also, you'll be charged for the diverted leg, if
your incoming calls take you over the inclusive minutes)

(I personally still use Orange Business for voice due to free 0800 and
a very good tariff deal which has now ended, but have unlocked my M3100
for cheap HSDPA data use via T-Mobile).

Regards

Simon Clark
Business Telecoms

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I personally still use Orange Business for voice due to free 0800

I get free 0800 on my orange business select 500 tariff, but still get that
annoying "you've dialled an 0800 number, you may be charged etc"

Is there a way of stopping this message?


--

J B

> in February, someone called me saying that
> they were from Orange and asked me if I wanted a 10% discount as a
> loyal customer. I said "yes", and thought no more about it.
>
> Oh dear. If anyone phones and offers you £25million and wants your bank
> details, please say "NO". All you said you would like was a 10% discount.
> Anyone could say "yes I would like a 10% discount". It's only when they
> tape you agreeing to a new contract with them the trouble starts - or when
> you sign papers they send. Don't forget a lot of sales will lie to make a
> living. You sound the type that would buy expensive and useless phone
> insurance or extended warranties that run in parallel to manufacturers
> warranties.

[snip more unhelpful comments]

I recently had to help a friend who had exactly this problem. John B - just
call Orange and ask to file a 'dealer report'. If the dealer is known to be
dodgy and / or has lost their Orange dealership, Orange can immediately
revoke the new contract and put you back in the position you were before.
This process took about an hour of being passed round the houses, but be
pleasant and persistent and it will be done - then and there, over the
phone.

If however they are a reputable dealer - unlikely given their sales
tactics - Orange will insist that the dealer report be submitted and someone
in Orange will get back to you. If this is the case, ask for a timescale and
get names, their location and the team number. If you are not called back,
call them and ask to escalate the issue - Orange WILL (and should) deal with
this internally.

DO explain clearly and often that you've tried to call the dealer, they're
not answering the phone, they misled you etc.

DO ask to speak the executive office, and if they refuse to escalate, don't
hesitate to call Ofcom - they can get results in days.

DON'T withold payment.

Good luck!

Benedict Addis.

"J B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I personally still use Orange Business for voice due to free 0800
>
> I get free 0800 on my orange business select 500 tariff, but still get
> that annoying "you've dialled an 0800 number, you may be charged etc"
>
> Is there a way of stopping this message?

No. Unless the "NCFF No Charge for Freephone" is applied in CSS for non
official business tariffs then you'll get the message. Problem is that
product isn't available to add anymore though so you are stuck with the
message.

However, just press the # key when she starts talking. It shuts her up (also
when you start to be put in a queue for 150 as well). :-)

Simon

[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> 1) Is there any way I can get my PAC without paying off the contract?

Get the "privateers" to admit their error and rescind your previous
contract, this will reverse your account to the state it was in prior to
their involvement.

> 2) (if not) what's the minimum that I can pay Orange to get out of the
> contract? Currently my base tarrif is =A319.50 and I pay another =A310 or
> so for additional SMS messages and GPRS access - can I cancel all the
> additional options and just bung them =A319.50 * 5 months to February?

Yes.

> Can I move further down to anything cheaper? In general, if I move to
> the absolute cheapest possible tarrif tomorrow (which I think is
> Dolphin at =A319.00), can I immediately pay the contract off on that
> tarrif?

You can't move to an animal tariff, you would move to Core Plan 19, and
once that has taken effect you can then pay it off at £19 per remaining
month.

Name and shame the "privateers" then?
--
Regards
Jon

[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...

James, please add something like > to the start of every line you quote
(your newsdealer probably can do this automatically).

Thanks.
--
Regards
Jon

"Simon Ough" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "J B" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> I get free 0800 on my orange business select 500 tariff, but still get
>> that annoying "you've dialled an 0800 number, you may be charged etc"
>>
>> Is there a way of stopping this message?
>
> No. Unless the "NCFF No Charge for Freephone" is applied in CSS for non
> official business tariffs then you'll get the message. Problem is that
> product isn't available to add anymore though so you are stuck with the
> message.
>
> However, just press the # key when she starts talking. It shuts her up
> (also when you start to be put in a queue for 150 as well). :-)

Ahah!

Thank you VERY MUCH indeed.


--

J B