Cancelled Contract - Return Phone

"PajaP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:21:02 +0100, "Sprite"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>How long has this saga been
>>going on? Why should Vodafone lose £410 to you?
>
> 6 months. Not had a correct bill yet.
> This they admit (after initially accusing me of lying about the
> contract terms).
> They do not lose £410. They sold me the phone for £150. They chose the
> price. The store manger waived this £150 at his discretion. They were
> expecting me to keep the contract for 18 months. They have admitted to
> messing up my account and have said they will end the contract early
> with no penalty. The way I see it they have no right to claim
> ownership of my phone. That is a penalty!

Look, you're not gonna get to keep the phone. The angle you're coming at
this at is incorrect, you're lucky that they're letting you disconnect. Most
networks are complete tossers when it comes to early cancellation of
contract without penalty. I'm aware you've used up your own 'free' time to
pursue getting things sorted every month, but that's just unlucky. You're
out of the contract, send the phone back, get another.

---

› See More: Cancelled Contract - Return Phone

PajaP wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:21:02 +0100, "Sprite"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> How long has this saga been
>> going on? Why should Vodafone lose £410 to you?
>
> 6 months. Not had a correct bill yet.
> This they admit (after initially accusing me of lying about the
> contract terms).
> They do not lose £410. They sold me the phone for £150. They chose the
> price. The store manger waived this £150 at his discretion. They were
> expecting me to keep the contract for 18 months. They have admitted to
> messing up my account and have said they will end the contract early
> with no penalty. The way I see it they have no right to claim
> ownership of my phone. That is a penalty!

The phone costs £410. The retailer (including Vodafone stores) gets
paid a commission for selling you the contract. This commission is then
used to subsidise the handset. In this case, by reducing the handset
price by £260. The commission is based on you paying £30 (or whatever)
for 18 months.

You are correct - they have absolutely no right to claim ownership of
your phone. However, they do have the absolute right to enforce the
remaining 12 months of your contract.

You however have the right to cancel your contract by paying the
remaining months, or by accepting their offer of goodwill and handing
back the handset. It's an "either, or" decision - it's not pick and mix.


>> They admitted they were wrong by offering compensation in your contract and
>> allowing you to cancel early. There is no reason that they should lose any
>> rights to the phone, IMO.
>
> I have the store receipt that shows my ownership of the phone.
> When Vodafone can show me a contract the phone is theirs they can have
> it back.

As I said, it's yours, but they're not going to cancel the contract
early unless you return it. They're not legally required to cancel the
contract early, so it's your choice to voluntarily return the phone.

D

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 14:49:24 +0100, Unimobiles.com
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I think Vodafone have bent over backwards to accommodate you, and that
>you should return the phone. After all, they have refunded the cost of
>it to you. You are trying to get something for nothing, whatever way
>you look at it, I would consider it stealing.
>

Please explain how Vodafone have "bent over backwards to accommodate
me". They have screwed up my account for the last 6 months and
continue to do so. They send me 10's of unsolicited text messages even
after promising to stop this several times. If you see that as
accommodating me, I pity your customers.

They screw up, they should expect to pay the price.
The price is they lose the money for the rest of the contract.
The price of the phone does not come into it. They 'gave/sold' me this
for free.

As for stealing. Vodafone are the ones attempting to "steal" MY phone.
They gave me something for free (the phone) in the expectation of
getting something greater in return (my custom/money for a period of
at least 18 months).
They screwed up our business relationship, not me.
They have to pay the price. This does not include being given the
ability to steal off me. The phone does NOT form part of my airtime
contract with them. This is covered by a separate contract. The sales
contract/receipt of the phone. Which I honoured in full. If they had
not offered me the phone for free, I would have paid the £150.

>Of course you may feel they have stolen your time and energy through
>billing mistakes, but that's though luck at the end of the day -
>unless there's something in the contract to accommodate you.

"Tough luck". Again, I pity your customers with that attitude.
There is something in the contract to accommodate me.
A sales receipt stating the phone is mine.

I am the innocent party in this.
I entered into a contract with Vodafone expecting them to at least be
able to manage the billing side of it.
To continually spam me, forcing a number change and then to mess up my
billing 6 months in a row.
Yeah right, if your provider did that to you I am sure you would be
singing their praises.

They are big enough to admit their mistakes. That does not mean they
should get away with it for free. They have already had money off me.
The only thing I am gaining is not having to pay the remaining time on
my contract. The phone was mine from day one. No-one has yet convinced
me otherwise.
Please show the contract clause that says the phone is the property of
Vodafone if I do not go to end of term with the contract.

Even if I just cancelled the contract at the very first billing error.
The most a court could do is order me to pay the remaining term. They
could not repossess the phone. Because in law, it is mine! The sales
receipt shows this.

--
Thanks
PajaP

PajaP wrote:
>
> Even if I just cancelled the contract at the very first billing error.
> The most a court could do is order me to pay the remaining term. They
> could not repossess the phone. Because in law, it is mine! The sales
> receipt shows this.
>

Well then if you have as much backbone in real life as you do stamina
as a keyboard warrior on Usenet, why don't you simply refuse their
demands and invite them to pursue the matter before a District Judge?

They might well decide it's not worth their while to do so for what is
a relatively small amount.......but then again they might decide to go
for it, in which case you'll find yourself having to justify your
stance.

And I think you'd lose.

But feel free to try the former..............and good luck.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:13:55 +0100, David Hearn
<[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
I another message you also wrote:

>"You are correct - they have absolutely no right to claim ownership of
>your phone. However, they do have the absolute right to enforce the
>remaining 12 months of your contract."
>

Great. At least someone can see the phone is mine.

My only real concern here is Vodafone state:
"Having shown your email records to my manager she has agreed to
cancel your account with no penalties attached"

Saying that and then saying:
"all I need you to do is return the hand set"
I see this as being a 'penalty'.

They want something that is mine, in return for ending a contract and
business relationship that they soured.

>Seriously, take it to court, and I think the Magistrate (or whoever gets
>allocated to your hearing in the Small Claims court) would find in
>favour of Vodafone as they have tried to be fair.
>

I have already informed Vodafone this is the action I am to take.

Maybe the magistrate will see Vodafone expecting me to give them my
property as a 'penalty' also.

I am willing to take this risk.

--
Thank you
Paul Jones

On 28 Oct 2006 08:43:43 -0700, "Alex Flaherty"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well then if you have as much backbone in real life as you do stamina
>as a keyboard warrior on Usenet, why don't you simply refuse their
>demands and invite them to pursue the matter before a District Judge?

Don't see myself as a keyboard warrior but I like to stand up for my
beliefs.

>They might well decide it's not worth their while to do so for what is
>a relatively small amount.......but then again they might decide to go
>for it, in which case you'll find yourself having to justify your
>stance.

Yes, I have advised Vodafone this is the course of action we must
take.
I think I have probably annoyed them enough now (though annoyance was
not my intention) that they will indeed "go for it".

>And I think you'd lose.

You are most likely right.
My only defence will be Vodafone admit they have acted badly.
That they are prepared to end the contract with no penalties but want
me to give them 'my property' as a penalty.

>But feel free to try the former..............and good luck.

Thanks. You can be sure I will post the court outcome here.
Win or lose!

--
PajaP

"Sprite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[snip]


> Quite how you see it as your property bemuses me... the
> handsets are subsidised. It becomes your property at the
> end of the contract. Until then you are only 'borrowing'
> it or 'renting' it or something like that. The phone is
> Vodafone's property until the contract is completed,
> which it will not be, hence, it is their property.

I think you'll find that most contracts contain a clause that specifically
excludes the handset itself from the contract, which is for network
access/airtime. The phone is yours from day one. Why do you think that so
many end up on eBay..?

This does of course assume the contract is not ended early, as in this
case, when different conditions may well apply. Read the small print.

Ivor

"Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Sprite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> [snip]
>
>
>> Quite how you see it as your property bemuses me... the
>> handsets are subsidised. It becomes your property at the
>> end of the contract. Until then you are only 'borrowing'
>> it or 'renting' it or something like that. The phone is
>> Vodafone's property until the contract is completed,
>> which it will not be, hence, it is their property.
>
> I think you'll find that most contracts contain a clause that specifically
> excludes the handset itself from the contract, which is for network
> access/airtime. The phone is yours from day one. Why do you think that so
> many end up on eBay..?
>
> This does of course assume the contract is not ended early, as in this
> case, when different conditions may well apply. Read the small print.

I think I get the hang of this - rather than the phone being theirs, it is
yours *so long as the terms of the contract are fulfilled* - that's not the
case in which case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the phone
or the contract to be paid?

--
Sue

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:58:36 +0100, PajaP <[email protected]> wrote:


>>Seriously, take it to court, and I think the Magistrate (or whoever gets
>>allocated to your hearing in the Small Claims court) would find in
>>favour of Vodafone as they have tried to be fair.
>>
>
>I have already informed Vodafone this is the action I am to take.
>
>Maybe the magistrate will see Vodafone expecting me to give them my
>property as a 'penalty' also.
>
>I am willing to take this risk.

FWIW, I think the handset is yours.

However the complexities of all this are probably a bit too much for all of
us barrack-room lawyers to comment on with any accuracy.

How about another stance? If you are as determined as you say you
are..calculate all of the time you have spent dealing with this, as well as
the incidental costs you have incurred and then send them a recorded letter
demanding compensation for that time and expense (converted to a monetary
value)..which I'm sure will come to significantly more than the cost of the
handset. The go on to state in a conciliatory tone that you would be
prepared to accept the handset in lieu of the claimed compensation.

If as I suspect, they refuse this offer, then issue a claim against them in
the small claims court (costs about £50 I believe) and then let them defend
it.

All of this is dependent on you having kept meticulous records of this
sorry affair, to produce as "evidence"
--

Regards

John [Essex, UK]
Remove the obvious spamtrap to reply

"Sprite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

[snip]

> > I think you'll find that most contracts contain a
> > clause that specifically excludes the handset itself
> > from the contract, which is for network access/airtime.
> > The phone is yours from day one. Why do you think that
> > so many end up on eBay..? This does of course assume the contract is
> > not ended
> > early, as in this case, when different conditions may
> > well apply. Read the small print.
>
> I think I get the hang of this - rather than the phone
> being theirs, it is yours *so long as the terms of the
> contract are fulfilled* - that's not the case in which
> case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the
> phone or the contract to be paid?

I'm not a lawyer, but that's the way I see it. They are asking for the
phone back as the price of ending the contract early.

It may or may not have any legal standing, but I'll await the OP's report
of any court proceedings with interest..!

Ivor

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:37:25 +0100, JC
<johncalias-newsgroupsATyahooD0TcoD0Tuk> wrote:

>FWIW, I think the handset is yours.
>
>However the complexities of all this are probably a bit too much for all of
>us barrack-room lawyers to comment on with any accuracy.
>
>How about another stance? If you are as determined as you say you
>are..calculate all of the time you have spent dealing with this, as well as
>the incidental costs you have incurred and then send them a recorded letter
>demanding compensation for that time and expense (converted to a monetary
>value)..which I'm sure will come to significantly more than the cost of the
>handset.

This I have already done along with a possible claim any legal fees
and court costs. They have acknowledged receipt of it and say:

"I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state
you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees".

>The go on to state in a conciliatory tone that you would be
>prepared to accept the handset in lieu of the claimed compensation.
>

This will be the next stage.
If they do not agree, my PAC will be used, the account will be
cancelled and they can go to court to claim their remaining line
rental. I will counter claim with my costs.

>If as I suspect, they refuse this offer, then issue a claim against them in
>the small claims court (costs about £50 I believe) and then let them defend
>it.
>

Yup should be about £50 at www.moneyclaim.gov.uk

>All of this is dependent on you having kept meticulous records of this
>sorry affair, to produce as "evidence"

I have.

--
Paul Jones

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:12:21 +0100, "Sprite"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Sprite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>> Quite how you see it as your property bemuses me... the
>>> handsets are subsidised. It becomes your property at the
>>> end of the contract. Until then you are only 'borrowing'
>>> it or 'renting' it or something like that. The phone is
>>> Vodafone's property until the contract is completed,
>>> which it will not be, hence, it is their property.
>>
>> I think you'll find that most contracts contain a clause that specifically
>> excludes the handset itself from the contract, which is for network
>> access/airtime. The phone is yours from day one. Why do you think that so
>> many end up on eBay..?
>>
>> This does of course assume the contract is not ended early, as in this
>> case, when different conditions may well apply. Read the small print.
>
>I think I get the hang of this - rather than the phone being theirs, it is
>yours *so long as the terms of the contract are fulfilled* - that's not the
>case in which case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the phone
>or the contract to be paid?

Not sure about all contracts but with mine, after reading it numerous
times, Vodafone make no claim to the phone at all.
There is only one section that covers the ending of my contract with
Vodafone. It details the way either myself or Vodafone may end the
contract. It then details what will happen if the contract is ended
early.

8) Ending of this Agreement
c) When this Agreement comes to an end:-
* your mobile device will be disconnected;
* you will no longer be entitled to use your mobile device number;
* you will have to pay immediately all charges outstanding at
disconnection;
* unless you have ended this Agreement under 8a)or in accordance with
clause 2 you will also have to pay the monthly (or other periodic)
line rental for the amount of the term which is left to run or if the
term has expired you will have to pay immediately the monthly (or
other periodic) line rental charge for a further calendar month. If
the term has not expired and you pay us this money in one lump sum
immediately after this agreement comes to an end, we will reduce the
amount you have to pay us by 2%. You will be unable to have your
mobile decide reconnected until we release your electronic serial
number; and
* we will repay any deposit you have given us but only if you do not
owe us any money. No interest will be payable.

The phone is 100% mine. They have _no_ legal claim to it.
They do a right to claim all remaining line rental for the duration of
the contract. This (and only this) is what they are likely to take me
to court to claim.

--
Thanks
PajaP

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:56:20 +0100, G a z . <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, pajap2@news-
>only.invalid says...
>
>> "I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state
>> you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees".
>>
>
>But if you do take Vodafone to the County Court, it will be the judge
>who decides who pays, whose fees! Vodafone will not get the choice as
>that decision is for the District Judge and not Vodafone.

Quite. I just copied/pasted their reply.
When I told them I would be claiming from them I stated I would also
claim (again a copy/paste):
I will be claiming my court fees.
I will be claiming my legal fees.

I do understand it is the courts decision whether these will have to
be paid or not.

>So good luck, as you will need it!

Many thanks I am sure you are right.

--
PajaP

PajaP wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:56:20 +0100, G a z . <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, pajap2@news-
>> only.invalid says...
>>
>>> "I confirm that Vodafone will not be covering the costs that you state
>>> you have incurred and will not be covering your legal and court fees".
>>>
>> But if you do take Vodafone to the County Court, it will be the judge
>> who decides who pays, whose fees! Vodafone will not get the choice as
>> that decision is for the District Judge and not Vodafone.
>
> Quite. I just copied/pasted their reply.
> When I told them I would be claiming from them I stated I would also
> claim (again a copy/paste):
> I will be claiming my court fees.
> I will be claiming my legal fees.
>
> I do understand it is the courts decision whether these will have to
> be paid or not.

I believe you cannot claim legal fees besides the submission fee (nor be
required to pay the defendant's) when using the Small Claims Court
(which I believe Money Claim is a front for). It's designed to allow
people to present their claim without requiring any legal
representation. You can use a solicitor if you wish, but it's unlikely
you'll get those fees paid, even if you win.

D

Ivor Jones wrote:
> "Sprite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I think you'll find that most contracts contain a
>>> clause that specifically excludes the handset itself
>>> from the contract, which is for network access/airtime.
>>> The phone is yours from day one. Why do you think that
>>> so many end up on eBay..? This does of course assume the contract is
>>> not ended
>>> early, as in this case, when different conditions may
>>> well apply. Read the small print.
>> I think I get the hang of this - rather than the phone
>> being theirs, it is yours *so long as the terms of the
>> contract are fulfilled* - that's not the case in which
>> case Voda are within their rights to ask for either the
>> phone or the contract to be paid?
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but that's the way I see it. They are asking for the
> phone back as the price of ending the contract early.
>
> It may or may not have any legal standing, but I'll await the OP's report
> of any court proceedings with interest..!
>
> Ivor

It might not have any legal standing, but neither does their offer to
end the contract early. If you're going to enforce your legal rights,
Vodafone is within their right to enforce theirs (ie. pay to end contract).

D