Orange smallest mobile network?

David Hearn <[email protected]> wrote:

> >> It's the economics of nastyness and madness
> >
> > It's all about profitability, though.
> >
> > In the same way that a supermarket wouldn't maintain a loss-making site
> > just to maintain brand loyalty and to be nice to their customers.
>
> They'd certainly maintain a loss-making site to maintain a presence and
> to stop a rival from taking over the site.

No. Both Somerfield and Iceland have sold struggling sites to rival
operators recently.

> In the same way, I wonder why, at one point, Clintons Cards had 5 stores
> in my local town - all within 2-3 minutes walk of each other.
> Waterstones had 3 stores after purchasing Ottakars, now reduced to 2
> (within 1 minute walk of each other).

That's usually to do with length of lease - it's sometimes cheaper to
keep running a site rather than pay the penalty clause for terminating
the lease. This is, of course, unless you can sell the remaining term on
to another operator.

> Unless a supermarket chain is having significant problems, it's likely
> that its in their interests to maintain lower profit (or loss making
> stores) to keep those people in the habit of shopping there. Once a
> customer starts shopping regularly elsewhere, they tend to stick. Those
> customers may move house or something in the future - and keeping them
> on-side is worthwhile.

Tesco may do this as they're in a position of market dominance and can
afford to do so. Many other chains wouldn't.

--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
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Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL
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› See More: Orange smallest mobile network?

Ivor Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> The purpose of a business is to provide what its customers want. If
> customers don't get this from one company, they will go elsewhere to one
> that can deliver.

But the same works both ways. If Orange create a tempting offer for people
who spend 100 pounds/month, then those people will switch to it. So it gets
left with a bunch of high-spenders and those who, through inertia, can't be
bothered to move and pay punitive rates. Sounds like a win-win situation
for them...

I admit things like dire customer service would make a poor reputation, but
if the high-spend deal is really that good then people will go for it.
(As an example today, cashback deals have hardly good press but people still
use them)

Theo

>>>In my eyes, Orange doesn't exist anymore. Haven't for a number of
>>>years.....
>>>I mean, when you think about it, what's 'Orange' about 'Orange'
>>>anymore?????
>>
>> Ditto again.
>>
>>
>
> Ah, I see Orange-bashing is becoming fashionable again :-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Jon.

Jon, I've used Orange and nothing but Orange for the last ten years, put all
my family on Orange but even I am starting to have doubts. This is more than
Orange-bashing, it's a zeitgeist!

Benedict.

Benedict Addis wrote:
>>>> In my eyes, Orange doesn't exist anymore. Haven't for a number of
>>>> years.....
>>>> I mean, when you think about it, what's 'Orange' about 'Orange'
>>>> anymore?????
>>> Ditto again.
>>>
>>>
>> Ah, I see Orange-bashing is becoming fashionable again :-)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Jon.
>
> Jon, I've used Orange and nothing but Orange for the last ten years, put all
> my family on Orange but even I am starting to have doubts. This is more than
> Orange-bashing, it's a zeitgeist!
>
> Benedict.
>
>

Until 12 months ago, I had been with Orange for just over 8 years.

During that time I found there service ok. My average monthly bill just
before leaving was £110 (for two phones).

I sat there and watched as new customers joined and got better deals
than me... the 'brand new customers only'.

After months of arguing, they gave in and they reduced my monthly rental
by £2.50!

I left shortly after. I'm now with Vodafone - similar network
coverage/quality, but my average bill (same usage for two phones) is now
£75-80.

Clive

"clive" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>
>>
>
> Until 12 months ago, I had been with Orange for just over 8 years.
>
> During that time I found there service ok. My average monthly bill just
> before leaving was £110 (for two phones).
>
> I sat there and watched as new customers joined and got better deals than
> me... the 'brand new customers only'.
>
> After months of arguing, they gave in and they reduced my monthly rental
> by £2.50!
>
> I left shortly after. I'm now with Vodafone - similar network
> coverage/quality, but my average bill (same usage for two phones) is now
> £75-80.
>
> Clive

Just to get some equality, I know a few friends who could say the same,
except "Orange" and "Vodafone" are the other way around. The amount next to
the pound signs are a little different, but even so.

Zeitgeist :-)

Regards

Jon.

--
Jon Pitts
Email: [email protected] Attachments: [email protected]

"Theo Markettos" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:d7l*[email protected]
> Ivor Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The purpose of a business is to provide what its
> > customers want. If customers don't get this from one
> > company, they will go elsewhere to one that can deliver.
>
> But the same works both ways. If Orange create a
> tempting offer for people who spend 100 pounds/month,
> then those people will switch to it. So it gets left
> with a bunch of high-spenders and those who, through
> inertia, can't be bothered to move and pay punitive
> rates. Sounds like a win-win situation for them...

And to hell with the low users. I would probably take 10 years to spend
£100..!

> I admit things like dire customer service would make a
> poor reputation, but if the high-spend deal is really
> that good then people will go for it. (As an example
> today, cashback deals have hardly good press but people
> still use them)

That is one thing I have never understood. Why not just reduce the price
by £x instead of charging £y and then giving the customer £x back..?

Ivor

SteveH wrote:
> David Hearn <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> It's the economics of nastyness and madness
>>> It's all about profitability, though.
>>>
>>> In the same way that a supermarket wouldn't maintain a loss-making site
>>> just to maintain brand loyalty and to be nice to their customers.
>> They'd certainly maintain a loss-making site to maintain a presence and
>> to stop a rival from taking over the site.
>
> No. Both Somerfield and Iceland have sold struggling sites to rival
> operators recently.

Heh - I was thinking of the popular supermarkets (ie. the
Orange/Vodafone/T-Mobile/O2's of the supermarkets) - rather than the
EasyMobile ones.

>> In the same way, I wonder why, at one point, Clintons Cards had 5 stores
>> in my local town - all within 2-3 minutes walk of each other.
>> Waterstones had 3 stores after purchasing Ottakars, now reduced to 2
>> (within 1 minute walk of each other).
>
> That's usually to do with length of lease - it's sometimes cheaper to
> keep running a site rather than pay the penalty clause for terminating
> the lease. This is, of course, unless you can sell the remaining term on
> to another operator.
>
>> Unless a supermarket chain is having significant problems, it's likely
>> that its in their interests to maintain lower profit (or loss making
>> stores) to keep those people in the habit of shopping there. Once a
>> customer starts shopping regularly elsewhere, they tend to stick. Those
>> customers may move house or something in the future - and keeping them
>> on-side is worthwhile.
>
> Tesco may do this as they're in a position of market dominance and can
> afford to do so. Many other chains wouldn't.

Okay, as I said above, I was thinking of more like Tesco/Sainsburys
rather than the smaller ones.

D

"David Hearn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> SteveH wrote:
>> David Hearn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>> It's the economics of nastyness and madness
>>>> It's all about profitability, though.
>>>>
>>>> In the same way that a supermarket wouldn't maintain a
>>>> loss-making site
>>>> just to maintain brand loyalty and to be nice to their customers.
>>> They'd certainly maintain a loss-making site to maintain a
>>> presence and
>>> to stop a rival from taking over the site.
>>
>> No. Both Somerfield and Iceland have sold struggling sites to rival
>> operators recently.
>
> Heh - I was thinking of the popular supermarkets (ie. the
> Orange/Vodafone/T-Mobile/O2's of the supermarkets) - rather than the
> EasyMobile ones.
>

I can think of one example.... last year (or possibly in 05),
Morrisons closed one of the two stores it had in Canterbury (both had
been from the Safeway takeover, but neither had been required to be
sold off). from what I recall, it remained empty for a while, although
I think it is now an Aldi.

Still, getting back on to the subject at hand.....
A business, whether it be a supermarket or mobile operator, is first
and foremest responsible to its shareholders, who generally will
demand maximum return from investment.
Orange have clearly determined it a worthwhile risk to lose the
contract phone customers who lose them money or break even.. If
they're on low/no line rental contracts with subsidised phones and,
which cost Orange money, why should they hold on to them ?

Seriously, if you ran a business where, to keep certain customers, it
would mean spending more than they'd bring back in return, would you
actually want to spend that money ?
I'm aware of long term profitability and word-of-mouth statistics for
people getting good service, but one route to making as much money as
possible for yourself/shareholders is not to throw money after
customers who aren't going to bring more back in return.

"Benedict Addis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>>In my eyes, Orange doesn't exist anymore. Haven't for a number of
>>>>years.....
>>>>I mean, when you think about it, what's 'Orange' about 'Orange'
>>>>anymore?????
>>>
>>> Ditto again.
>>
>> Ah, I see Orange-bashing is becoming fashionable again :-)
>> Cheers
>> Jon.
>
> Jon, I've used Orange and nothing but Orange for the last ten years, put
> all my family on Orange but even I am starting to have doubts. This is
> more than Orange-bashing, it's a zeitgeist!
> Benedict.
>
Indeed, the most loyal of long term Orange users are having doubts,
and now 3 have at last got their act together they have an alternative,
other than the unimaginative traditional 2g UK networks.

Steve Terry

Steve Terry wrote:
> "Benedict Addis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> In my eyes, Orange doesn't exist anymore. Haven't for a number of
>>>>> years.....
>>>>> I mean, when you think about it, what's 'Orange' about 'Orange'
>>>>> anymore?????
>>>> Ditto again.
>>> Ah, I see Orange-bashing is becoming fashionable again :-)
>>> Cheers
>>> Jon.
>> Jon, I've used Orange and nothing but Orange for the last ten years, put
>> all my family on Orange but even I am starting to have doubts. This is
>> more than Orange-bashing, it's a zeitgeist!
>> Benedict.
>>
> Indeed, the most loyal of long term Orange users are having doubts,
> and now 3 have at last got their act together they have an alternative,
> other than the unimaginative traditional 2g UK networks.
>
> Steve Terry
>
>

So which network would you recommend these days then Steve?

Paul

"Paul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

[snip]

> So which network would you recommend these days then
> Steve?
> Paul

I don't know about him, but for my part, if it's PAYG then Tesco.
Contract, probably Voda (although coverage on that is crap at work, and
all the company phones are on it..!)

Ivor

:-)

On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:56:16 -0000, Matt Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"David Hearn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Heh - I was thinking of the popular supermarkets (ie. the
>> Orange/Vodafone/T-Mobile/O2's of the supermarkets) - rather than the
>> EasyMobile ones.
>
>I can think of one example.... last year (or possibly in 05),
>Morrisons closed one of the two stores it had in Canterbury (both had
>been from the Safeway takeover, but neither had been required to be
>sold off). from what I recall, it remained empty for a while, although
>I think it is now an Aldi.

Yes it is. (Or, at least it was last weekend!)

>If they're on low/no line rental contracts with subsidised phones and,
>which cost Orange money, why should they hold on to them ?

How low a line rental do you mean here? Orange no longer appear to offer
anything under £25/month.

As for the OVP VM users, they're pretty much all on out-of-contract phones
having switched from other tariffs while it was still available, so the
subsidy has already been repaid.

--
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"Soruk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:56:16 -0000, Matt Wheeler
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>"David Hearn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Heh - I was thinking of the popular supermarkets (ie. the
>>> Orange/Vodafone/T-Mobile/O2's of the supermarkets) - rather than
>>> the
>>> EasyMobile ones.
>>
>>I can think of one example.... last year (or possibly in 05),
>>Morrisons closed one of the two stores it had in Canterbury (both
>>had
>>been from the Safeway takeover, but neither had been required to be
>>sold off). from what I recall, it remained empty for a while,
>>although
>>I think it is now an Aldi.
>
> Yes it is. (Or, at least it was last weekend!)
>
>>If they're on low/no line rental contracts with subsidised phones
>>and,
>>which cost Orange money, why should they hold on to them ?
>
> How low a line rental do you mean here? Orange no longer appear to
> offer
> anything under £25/month.
>
> As for the OVP VM users, they're pretty much all on out-of-contract
> phones
> having switched from other tariffs while it was still available, so
> the
> subsidy has already been repaid.
>
>

And what about those who managed to get new, free nokia 6070 handsets
a few weeks ago, or those that last year managed to get new, free
handsets on upgrade last year too. A 6070 costs about 80 quid, or
probably a bit less to the networks, but even so, if those OVP Virgin
users don't use the phone much, I don't see them using it enough to,
effectively, allow Orange to recoup the money they've "spent" on them.
As for other low tariff users, Orange still offer the Dolphin 19 pound
tariff on their website, and the site also suggests that the 19 pound
tariff is also available in store. Although these days with Orange's
upgrade bands and such like, I doubt there is much subsidy on those
people spending 25 or less per month.

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:11:11 -0000, Matt Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>And what about those who managed to get new, free nokia 6070 handsets
>a few weeks ago, or those that last year managed to get new, free
>handsets on upgrade last year too.

I get the impression (*note: not hard fact*) that this was a cock-up on
the part of the Orange website.

>A 6070 costs about 80 quid, or
>probably a bit less to the networks, but even so, if those OVP Virgin
>users don't use the phone much, I don't see them using it enough to,
>effectively, allow Orange to recoup the money they've "spent" on them.

Orange made the mistake of allowing them to upgrade at those prices. Their
fault.

>As for other low tariff users, Orange still offer the Dolphin 19 pound
>tariff on their website, and the site also suggests that the 19 pound
>tariff is also available in store. Although these days with Orange's
>upgrade bands and such like, I doubt there is much subsidy on those
>people spending 25 or less per month.

You're right there.. it's been a while since I got a free phone on upgrade
on ED50.

--
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