Results 1 to 14 of 14
- 05-25-2007, 01:54 PM #1JonGuest
[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> Just got a spam SMS from 80122.
> Is this one of these reverse charged SMS numbers which
> is going to cost me? If so, how much (on Vodafone) and
> can I refuse to pay for it?
> Does it cost me premium rate to text back STOP and
> should I do this in this case?
>
> I forwarded it to Vodafone's free VSPAM (87726) number.
Another follow up, these are the bandits who have just robbed you:
Zamano Ltd
0871 277 9988
[email protected]
The Bridge
12-16 Clerkenwell Road
London
EC1M 5PQ
Suggest an email to them (a phone call would cost) demanding to know
when and how you "subscribed" to their service.
--
Regards
Jon
› See More: Premium SMS
- 05-26-2007, 04:11 AM #2Ken WheatleyGuest
Re: Premium SMS
On Fri, 25 May 2007 20:54:28 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
wrote:
he bandits who have just robbed you:
>
>Zamano Ltd
>0871 277 9988
>[email protected]
>The Bridge
>12-16 Clerkenwell Road
>London
>EC1M 5PQ
>
>Suggest an email to them (a phone call would cost) demanding to know
>when and how you "subscribed" to their service.
We all get spam SMS. I, for one, never respond in any way and have
never been charged by the spammers. The OP did not say he was charged;
he was merely worried that he might be. Whay are you so certain that
he has been 'subscribed'?
- 05-26-2007, 07:29 AM #3Andrew GabrielGuest
Re: Premium SMS
In article <[email protected]>,
Ken Wheatley <[email protected]> writes:
> On Fri, 25 May 2007 20:54:28 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> he bandits who have just robbed you:
>>
>>Zamano Ltd
>>0871 277 9988
>>[email protected]
>>The Bridge
>>12-16 Clerkenwell Road
>>London
>>EC1M 5PQ
>>
>>Suggest an email to them (a phone call would cost) demanding to know
>>when and how you "subscribed" to their service.
>
> We all get spam SMS. I, for one, never respond in any way and have
> never been charged by the spammers. The OP did not say he was charged;
> he was merely worried that he might be. Whay are you so certain that
> he has been 'subscribed'?
Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
sending anything back to the sender.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
- 05-26-2007, 11:50 AM #4Leaenna MillsGuest
Re: Premium SMS
"Andrew Gabriel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
> I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
> sending anything back to the sender.
>
And you certainly shouldn't; if it's a scam, you'll simply confirm to them
that they've hit a "live" number.
Ask Vodafone to provide you with the audit trail that proves you sent the
legally required opt-in message from your phone.
- 05-27-2007, 01:00 AM #5JonGuest
Re: Premium SMS
[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> And you certainly shouldn't; if it's a scam, you'll simply confirm to them
> that they've hit a "live" number.
They will already know that due to delivery reports. Replying will not
do any harm (apart from 12p worth).
> Ask Vodafone to provide you with the audit trail that proves you sent the
> legally required opt-in message from your phone.
Vodafone are not required to produce this, the company sending the
messages however, are.
--
Regards
Jon
- 05-27-2007, 02:52 AM #6Mark ColeyGuest
Re: Premium SMS
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
> I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
> sending anything back to the sender.
If you are sure you haven't subscribed ask for an immediate refund from
Vodafone and say you will take them to the small claims court if they do
not oblige. They will try to get you to contact the company that sent
the message (this happened to me last year) but I pointed out that I was
under no obligation to try to get a refund from the 3rd party as I had
had no part in the charge appearing on my bill. I also refused to send a
STOP message, for the same reason as I had had no previous dealings with
the spamming company and didn't intend to start now. I pointed out to
Vodafone that my contract was with them and they were not authorised to
put random charges of £1.50 on my account on someone else's say so.
Unsurprisingly Vodafone could not indicate when I gave authorisation for
this. You can also ask them to escalate it to their fraud department.
Don't forget, for everyone that complains, there will be loads of people
that don't. Those on pay as you talk might not even know their balance
has dropped. And as Vodafone get some of the £1.50 they are complicit in
the fraud.
It hasn't happened again (yet).
Mark.
- 05-27-2007, 05:59 AM #7BeckGuest
Re: Premium SMS
"Mark Coley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>
>> Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
>> I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
>> sending anything back to the sender.
>
> If you are sure you haven't subscribed ask for an immediate refund from
> Vodafone and say you will take them to the small claims court if they do
> not oblige. They will try to get you to contact the company that sent the
> message (this happened to me last year) but I pointed out that I was under
> no obligation to try to get a refund from the 3rd party as I had had no
> part in the charge appearing on my bill. I also refused to send a STOP
> message, for the same reason as I had had no previous dealings with the
> spamming company and didn't intend to start now. I pointed out to Vodafone
> that my contract was with them and they were not authorised to put random
> charges of £1.50 on my account on someone else's say so. Unsurprisingly
> Vodafone could not indicate when I gave authorisation for this. You can
> also ask them to escalate it to their fraud department. Don't forget, for
> everyone that complains, there will be loads of people that don't. Those
> on pay as you talk might not even know their balance has dropped. And as
> Vodafone get some of the £1.50 they are complicit in the fraud.
>
> It hasn't happened again (yet).
My mum had the same thing. 3 porn spams costing her £1.50 each time. 3
came through within about 30 minutes of each other. She had only just that
day put on £5 credit to her phone.
Vodafone said there was nothing they could do and gave us the phone number
of the spammers. They rely on people like my mum who do not want the hassle
of argung for refunds and we did nothing about it.
What we did do though was to send a stop message, but also got Voda to block
all text messages from there on. My mum rarely uses the phone so blocking
texts was not an issue.
- 05-27-2007, 10:07 AM #8Guest
Re: Premium SMS
On May 27, 8:00 am, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Ask Vodafone to provide you with the audit trail that proves you sent the
> > legally required opt-in message from your phone.
>
> Vodafone are not required to produce this, the company sending the
> messages however, are.
> --
> Regards
> Jon
You're wrong; I've been there and done it (unfortunately).
Vodafone are billing him and will be the company removing funds from
his bank account; they are legally required to ensure their invoicing
is accurate.
His contract is with Vodafone, not some Mickey Mouse third party
who've scammed him.
- 05-27-2007, 10:21 AM #9JonGuest
Re: Premium SMS
[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> Vodafone are billing him and will be the company removing funds from
> his bank account; they are legally required to ensure their invoicing
> is accurate.
As far as they are concerned it is accurate.
> His contract is with Vodafone, not some Mickey Mouse third party
> who've scammed him.
How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?
You say that an opt-in SMS is legally required - can you cite a source
for that assertion? It is possible to opt-in to these service via other
methods - the interweb for one. It's down to the premium content
provider to prove that the customer opted-in, Vodafone could only
confirm or deny that a user subscribed via SMS, not via any other
method.
--
Regards
Jon
- 05-27-2007, 10:45 AM #10Guest
Re: Premium SMS
On May 27, 5:21 pm, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
>
> > Vodafone are billing him and will be the company removing funds from
> > his bank account; they are legally required to ensure their invoicing
> > is accurate.
>
> As far as they are concerned it is accurate.
Until it's questioned yes.
> > His contract is with Vodafone, not some Mickey Mouse third party
> > who've scammed him.
>
> How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
> trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?
>
Yep, for sure............although more often than not it's some chav-
type who hasn't read the small print ("this is a subscription service,
you'll receive 5 sms messages a week at £1.50 a throw etc etc").
> You say that an opt-in SMS is legally required - can you cite a source
> for that assertion? It is possible to opt-in to these service via other
> methods - the interweb for one. It's down to the premium content
> provider to prove that the customer opted-in, Vodafone could only
> confirm or deny that a user subscribed via SMS, not via any other
> method.
> --
> Regards
> Jon
Without an opt-in SMS, the "debt" is unenforceable because there's no
audit trail. Trust me, I've been through all of this in more detail
than I wish I'd been forced to.
(As an analogy, you employ Jack "Even Though I'm Only 24, I'm Fat And
Bald With Tattoos" The Lad to build you a wall. When you get the
bill, you find he's also invoiced you for a rather nice rabbit hutch.
When you query it, he tells you the local garden centre submitted
their invoice to him because you *must* have asked for the hutch and
so you've got to pay the whole bill. Would you pay up in such
circumstances?)
I doubt you'll find a website these days that doesn't require you to
send an sms from the handset to confirm that it's you subscribing.
Otherwise, anyone could enter random numbers and subscribe the
unsuspecting owner of those numbers to no end of grief.
Things have been tightened up in recent times..............but if you
*do* find any cowboy websites with such a loophole, you should report
them to ICSTIS immediately.
- 05-27-2007, 12:34 PM #11Colin WilsonGuest
Re: Premium SMS
> Otherwise, anyone could enter random numbers and subscribe the
> unsuspecting owner of those numbers to no end of grief.
I got a similar "excuse" by a scammer when I got a premium rate
message to each of two phones I had out of the blue.
I told them they were on notice to keep all necessary logfiles from
the website they allege to have been the cause of it all, as I was
taking them to court and would be calling it as evidence - and that
the chain of evidence was necessary under the terms of the Data
Protection Act.
I made mention that deleting their "evidence" would not only destroy
any case they had to keep the money, but would leave them open to
obstruction / fraud charges.
A cheque arrived very quickly.
- 05-27-2007, 02:38 PM #12JonGuest
Re: Premium SMS
[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> > As far as they are concerned it is accurate.
> Until it's questioned yes.
SO what would happen if every customer questioned every charge?
> > How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
> > trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?
> Yep, for sure............although more often than not it's some chav-
> type who hasn't read the small print ("this is a subscription service,
> you'll receive 5 sms messages a week at =A31.50 a throw etc etc").
Agreed.
> Without an opt-in SMS, the "debt" is unenforceable because there's no
> audit trail. Trust me, I've been through all of this in more detail
> than I wish I'd been forced to.
Please cite your source? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that you
are wrong, but currently I don't believe you to be entirely correct.
> (As an analogy, you employ Jack "Even Though I'm Only 24, I'm Fat And
> Bald With Tattoos" The Lad to build you a wall. When you get the
> bill, you find he's also invoiced you for a rather nice rabbit hutch.
> When you query it, he tells you the local garden centre submitted
> their invoice to him because you *must* have asked for the hutch and
> so you've got to pay the whole bill. Would you pay up in such
> circumstances?)
OK, I'll play along with you! Before paying I think I might ask to see
this "invoice" from the garden centre, inform Jack that I did not
request this, pay the correct amount of money to Jack for building the
wall and then ask the garden centre what their game was. Jack is not to
know that I didn't request the rabbit hutch. For all he knows I might be
trying to pull a fast one on him.
> I doubt you'll find a website these days that doesn't require you to
> send an sms from the handset to confirm that it's you subscribing.
Can you name any?
> Otherwise, anyone could enter random numbers and subscribe the
> unsuspecting owner of those numbers to no end of grief.
>
> Things have been tightened up in recent times..............but if you
> *do* find any cowboy websites with such a loophole, you should report
> them to ICSTIS immediately.
Quite.
--
Regards
Jon
- 05-28-2007, 04:18 AM #13Andy PandyGuest
Re: Premium SMS
"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> > > As far as they are concerned it is accurate.
>
> > Until it's questioned yes.
>
> SO what would happen if every customer questioned every charge?
The scammers would be quickly discovered and hopefully barred.
> > > How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
> > > trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?
In the same way as credit card companies deal with cardholder not present type
transactions. If the cardholder disputes the transaction with his bank, the bank will
place the amount "in dispute" while they ask the merchant to provide proof that the
transaction was authorised by the cardholder. If the merchant can't provide this
proof, the money will be refunded to the cardholder and the bank will reclaim the
money from the merchant. If it happens too often with any one merchant, they will
lose their card handling facilities. The cardholder need only contact his bank - he
certainly doesn't need to take it up with the merchant.
> > Without an opt-in SMS, the "debt" is unenforceable because there's no
> > audit trail. Trust me, I've been through all of this in more detail
> > than I wish I'd been forced to.
>
> Please cite your source? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that you
> are wrong, but currently I don't believe you to be entirely correct.
Generally you can't enforce a debt without some sort of evidence that the customer
owes the money. If Vodafone claim you owe them on the say-so of a third party, they
(Vodafone) must prove that you owe the money.
> > (As an analogy, you employ Jack "Even Though I'm Only 24, I'm Fat And
> > Bald With Tattoos" The Lad to build you a wall. When you get the
> > bill, you find he's also invoiced you for a rather nice rabbit hutch.
> > When you query it, he tells you the local garden centre submitted
> > their invoice to him because you *must* have asked for the hutch and
> > so you've got to pay the whole bill. Would you pay up in such
> > circumstances?)
>
> OK, I'll play along with you! Before paying I think I might ask to see
> this "invoice" from the garden centre, inform Jack that I did not
> request this, pay the correct amount of money to Jack for building the
> wall and then ask the garden centre what their game was. Jack is not to
> know that I didn't request the rabbit hutch. For all he knows I might be
> trying to pull a fast one on him.
Jack shouldn't have taken instructions from a third party as yours, without some sort
of evidence that they were yours.
Imagine if banks operated the same way. I go into your bank and say "Jon owes me a
tenner", so they give me a tenner and debit your account. You then need to chase me
to get your money back.
--
Andy
- 05-28-2007, 12:58 PM #14Andy PandyGuest
Re: Premium SMS
"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected]lid declared for all the world to hear...
> > > SO what would happen if every customer questioned every charge?
> >
> > The scammers would be quickly discovered and hopefully barred.
>
> I meant ever charge on their bill, not just suspected scams.
What, you mean customers reporting genuine calls/sign-ups as scams? For a start, it
isn't a problem with CC cardholder not present type transactions, so why would it be
with phone charges, and secondly, the mobile companies could always impose a charge
on customers, or even threaten them with legal action, should they subsequently prove
that the customer did indeed authorise the charge. This would make it likely that
only customers who were sure the charge wasn't authorised disputed the charge.
> > > Please cite your source? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that you
> > > are wrong, but currently I don't believe you to be entirely correct.
> >
> > Generally you can't enforce a debt without some sort of evidence that the
customer
> > owes the money. If Vodafone claim you owe them on the say-so of a third party,
they
> > (Vodafone) must prove that you owe the money.
>
> But as part of their agreement with Vodafone to provide services over
> their network, the content providers sign in to an agreement which says
> lots of things including something along the lines of "we will do our
> best to keep the billing accurate" etc,
That's between Vodafone and the third party - nothing to do with the customer.
> so Vodafone/3rd party would have
> to deal with things by exception, rather than by double-confirmation.
Yes. Just like credit card companies deal with cardholder not present transactions.
It should be a simple case of:
1) Customer disputes charge - calls Vodafone (or O2 etc).
2) Vodafone investigate and seek proof that the customer signed up.
3) If sign-up not proved, Vodafone refund customer and claims from scammer, scammer
possibly charged with fraud.
4) If sign-up proved, customer gets charged plus an admin fee for wasting Vodafone's
time, or customer is prosecuted if they deliberately lied.
> > Imagine if banks operated the same way. I go into your bank and say "Jon owes me
a
> > tenner", so they give me a tenner and debit your account. You then need to chase
me
> > to get your money back.
>
> Clearly, that would never happen.
Exactly. Why should a third party be able to charge your phone bill, but not your
bank account, without proof that you authorised the charge?
--
Andy
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