Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Jon
    Guest
    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > Just got a spam SMS from 80122.
    > Is this one of these reverse charged SMS numbers which
    > is going to cost me? If so, how much (on Vodafone) and
    > can I refuse to pay for it?
    > Does it cost me premium rate to text back STOP and
    > should I do this in this case?
    >
    > I forwarded it to Vodafone's free VSPAM (87726) number.


    Another follow up, these are the bandits who have just robbed you:

    Zamano Ltd
    0871 277 9988
    [email protected]
    The Bridge
    12-16 Clerkenwell Road
    London
    EC1M 5PQ

    Suggest an email to them (a phone call would cost) demanding to know
    when and how you "subscribed" to their service.
    --
    Regards
    Jon



    See More: Premium SMS




  2. #2
    Ken Wheatley
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    On Fri, 25 May 2007 20:54:28 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    he bandits who have just robbed you:
    >
    >Zamano Ltd
    >0871 277 9988
    >[email protected]
    >The Bridge
    >12-16 Clerkenwell Road
    >London
    >EC1M 5PQ
    >
    >Suggest an email to them (a phone call would cost) demanding to know
    >when and how you "subscribed" to their service.


    We all get spam SMS. I, for one, never respond in any way and have
    never been charged by the spammers. The OP did not say he was charged;
    he was merely worried that he might be. Whay are you so certain that
    he has been 'subscribed'?



  3. #3
    Andrew Gabriel
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Ken Wheatley <[email protected]> writes:
    > On Fri, 25 May 2007 20:54:28 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > he bandits who have just robbed you:
    >>
    >>Zamano Ltd
    >>0871 277 9988
    >>[email protected]
    >>The Bridge
    >>12-16 Clerkenwell Road
    >>London
    >>EC1M 5PQ
    >>
    >>Suggest an email to them (a phone call would cost) demanding to know
    >>when and how you "subscribed" to their service.

    >
    > We all get spam SMS. I, for one, never respond in any way and have
    > never been charged by the spammers. The OP did not say he was charged;
    > he was merely worried that he might be. Whay are you so certain that
    > he has been 'subscribed'?


    Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
    I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
    sending anything back to the sender.

    --
    Andrew Gabriel
    [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]



  4. #4
    Leaenna Mills
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS


    "Andrew Gabriel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
    > I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
    > sending anything back to the sender.
    >


    And you certainly shouldn't; if it's a scam, you'll simply confirm to them
    that they've hit a "live" number.

    Ask Vodafone to provide you with the audit trail that proves you sent the
    legally required opt-in message from your phone.





  5. #5
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > And you certainly shouldn't; if it's a scam, you'll simply confirm to them
    > that they've hit a "live" number.


    They will already know that due to delivery reports. Replying will not
    do any harm (apart from 12p worth).

    > Ask Vodafone to provide you with the audit trail that proves you sent the
    > legally required opt-in message from your phone.


    Vodafone are not required to produce this, the company sending the
    messages however, are.
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  6. #6
    Mark Coley
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    Andrew Gabriel wrote:

    > Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
    > I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
    > sending anything back to the sender.


    If you are sure you haven't subscribed ask for an immediate refund from
    Vodafone and say you will take them to the small claims court if they do
    not oblige. They will try to get you to contact the company that sent
    the message (this happened to me last year) but I pointed out that I was
    under no obligation to try to get a refund from the 3rd party as I had
    had no part in the charge appearing on my bill. I also refused to send a
    STOP message, for the same reason as I had had no previous dealings with
    the spamming company and didn't intend to start now. I pointed out to
    Vodafone that my contract was with them and they were not authorised to
    put random charges of £1.50 on my account on someone else's say so.
    Unsurprisingly Vodafone could not indicate when I gave authorisation for
    this. You can also ask them to escalate it to their fraud department.
    Don't forget, for everyone that complains, there will be loads of people
    that don't. Those on pay as you talk might not even know their balance
    has dropped. And as Vodafone get some of the £1.50 they are complicit in
    the fraud.

    It hasn't happened again (yet).

    Mark.



  7. #7
    Beck
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS


    "Mark Coley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Andrew Gabriel wrote:
    >
    >> Well, Vodafone just told me that SMS cost me £1.50.
    >> I've no idea if I'm 'subscribed'? I really don't fancy
    >> sending anything back to the sender.

    >
    > If you are sure you haven't subscribed ask for an immediate refund from
    > Vodafone and say you will take them to the small claims court if they do
    > not oblige. They will try to get you to contact the company that sent the
    > message (this happened to me last year) but I pointed out that I was under
    > no obligation to try to get a refund from the 3rd party as I had had no
    > part in the charge appearing on my bill. I also refused to send a STOP
    > message, for the same reason as I had had no previous dealings with the
    > spamming company and didn't intend to start now. I pointed out to Vodafone
    > that my contract was with them and they were not authorised to put random
    > charges of £1.50 on my account on someone else's say so. Unsurprisingly
    > Vodafone could not indicate when I gave authorisation for this. You can
    > also ask them to escalate it to their fraud department. Don't forget, for
    > everyone that complains, there will be loads of people that don't. Those
    > on pay as you talk might not even know their balance has dropped. And as
    > Vodafone get some of the £1.50 they are complicit in the fraud.
    >
    > It hasn't happened again (yet).


    My mum had the same thing. 3 porn spams costing her £1.50 each time. 3
    came through within about 30 minutes of each other. She had only just that
    day put on £5 credit to her phone.
    Vodafone said there was nothing they could do and gave us the phone number
    of the spammers. They rely on people like my mum who do not want the hassle
    of argung for refunds and we did nothing about it.
    What we did do though was to send a stop message, but also got Voda to block
    all text messages from there on. My mum rarely uses the phone so blocking
    texts was not an issue.




  8. #8

    Re: Premium SMS

    On May 27, 8:00 am, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Ask Vodafone to provide you with the audit trail that proves you sent the
    > > legally required opt-in message from your phone.

    >
    > Vodafone are not required to produce this, the company sending the
    > messages however, are.
    > --
    > Regards
    > Jon


    You're wrong; I've been there and done it (unfortunately).

    Vodafone are billing him and will be the company removing funds from
    his bank account; they are legally required to ensure their invoicing
    is accurate.

    His contract is with Vodafone, not some Mickey Mouse third party
    who've scammed him.




  9. #9
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > Vodafone are billing him and will be the company removing funds from
    > his bank account; they are legally required to ensure their invoicing
    > is accurate.


    As far as they are concerned it is accurate.

    > His contract is with Vodafone, not some Mickey Mouse third party
    > who've scammed him.


    How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
    trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?

    You say that an opt-in SMS is legally required - can you cite a source
    for that assertion? It is possible to opt-in to these service via other
    methods - the interweb for one. It's down to the premium content
    provider to prove that the customer opted-in, Vodafone could only
    confirm or deny that a user subscribed via SMS, not via any other
    method.
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  10. #10

    Re: Premium SMS

    On May 27, 5:21 pm, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    >
    > > Vodafone are billing him and will be the company removing funds from
    > > his bank account; they are legally required to ensure their invoicing
    > > is accurate.

    >
    > As far as they are concerned it is accurate.


    Until it's questioned yes.

    > > His contract is with Vodafone, not some Mickey Mouse third party
    > > who've scammed him.

    >
    > How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
    > trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?
    >


    Yep, for sure............although more often than not it's some chav-
    type who hasn't read the small print ("this is a subscription service,
    you'll receive 5 sms messages a week at £1.50 a throw etc etc").

    > You say that an opt-in SMS is legally required - can you cite a source
    > for that assertion? It is possible to opt-in to these service via other
    > methods - the interweb for one. It's down to the premium content
    > provider to prove that the customer opted-in, Vodafone could only
    > confirm or deny that a user subscribed via SMS, not via any other
    > method.
    > --
    > Regards
    > Jon


    Without an opt-in SMS, the "debt" is unenforceable because there's no
    audit trail. Trust me, I've been through all of this in more detail
    than I wish I'd been forced to.

    (As an analogy, you employ Jack "Even Though I'm Only 24, I'm Fat And
    Bald With Tattoos" The Lad to build you a wall. When you get the
    bill, you find he's also invoiced you for a rather nice rabbit hutch.
    When you query it, he tells you the local garden centre submitted
    their invoice to him because you *must* have asked for the hutch and
    so you've got to pay the whole bill. Would you pay up in such
    circumstances?)

    I doubt you'll find a website these days that doesn't require you to
    send an sms from the handset to confirm that it's you subscribing.
    Otherwise, anyone could enter random numbers and subscribe the
    unsuspecting owner of those numbers to no end of grief.

    Things have been tightened up in recent times..............but if you
    *do* find any cowboy websites with such a loophole, you should report
    them to ICSTIS immediately.




  11. #11
    Colin Wilson
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    > Otherwise, anyone could enter random numbers and subscribe the
    > unsuspecting owner of those numbers to no end of grief.


    I got a similar "excuse" by a scammer when I got a premium rate
    message to each of two phones I had out of the blue.

    I told them they were on notice to keep all necessary logfiles from
    the website they allege to have been the cause of it all, as I was
    taking them to court and would be calling it as evidence - and that
    the chain of evidence was necessary under the terms of the Data
    Protection Act.

    I made mention that deleting their "evidence" would not only destroy
    any case they had to keep the money, but would leave them open to
    obstruction / fraud charges.

    A cheque arrived very quickly.



  12. #12
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > > As far as they are concerned it is accurate.


    > Until it's questioned yes.


    SO what would happen if every customer questioned every charge?

    > > How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
    > > trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?


    > Yep, for sure............although more often than not it's some chav-
    > type who hasn't read the small print ("this is a subscription service,
    > you'll receive 5 sms messages a week at =A31.50 a throw etc etc").


    Agreed.

    > Without an opt-in SMS, the "debt" is unenforceable because there's no
    > audit trail. Trust me, I've been through all of this in more detail
    > than I wish I'd been forced to.


    Please cite your source? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that you
    are wrong, but currently I don't believe you to be entirely correct.

    > (As an analogy, you employ Jack "Even Though I'm Only 24, I'm Fat And
    > Bald With Tattoos" The Lad to build you a wall. When you get the
    > bill, you find he's also invoiced you for a rather nice rabbit hutch.
    > When you query it, he tells you the local garden centre submitted
    > their invoice to him because you *must* have asked for the hutch and
    > so you've got to pay the whole bill. Would you pay up in such
    > circumstances?)


    OK, I'll play along with you! Before paying I think I might ask to see
    this "invoice" from the garden centre, inform Jack that I did not
    request this, pay the correct amount of money to Jack for building the
    wall and then ask the garden centre what their game was. Jack is not to
    know that I didn't request the rabbit hutch. For all he knows I might be
    trying to pull a fast one on him.

    > I doubt you'll find a website these days that doesn't require you to
    > send an sms from the handset to confirm that it's you subscribing.


    Can you name any?

    > Otherwise, anyone could enter random numbers and subscribe the
    > unsuspecting owner of those numbers to no end of grief.
    >
    > Things have been tightened up in recent times..............but if you
    > *do* find any cowboy websites with such a loophole, you should report
    > them to ICSTIS immediately.


    Quite.
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  13. #13
    Andy Pandy
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS


    "Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > > > As far as they are concerned it is accurate.

    >
    > > Until it's questioned yes.

    >
    > SO what would happen if every customer questioned every charge?


    The scammers would be quickly discovered and hopefully barred.

    > > > How do Vodafone know it's a scam? How do they know it's not the customer
    > > > trying to get a freebie (it does happen)?


    In the same way as credit card companies deal with cardholder not present type
    transactions. If the cardholder disputes the transaction with his bank, the bank will
    place the amount "in dispute" while they ask the merchant to provide proof that the
    transaction was authorised by the cardholder. If the merchant can't provide this
    proof, the money will be refunded to the cardholder and the bank will reclaim the
    money from the merchant. If it happens too often with any one merchant, they will
    lose their card handling facilities. The cardholder need only contact his bank - he
    certainly doesn't need to take it up with the merchant.

    > > Without an opt-in SMS, the "debt" is unenforceable because there's no
    > > audit trail. Trust me, I've been through all of this in more detail
    > > than I wish I'd been forced to.

    >
    > Please cite your source? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that you
    > are wrong, but currently I don't believe you to be entirely correct.


    Generally you can't enforce a debt without some sort of evidence that the customer
    owes the money. If Vodafone claim you owe them on the say-so of a third party, they
    (Vodafone) must prove that you owe the money.

    > > (As an analogy, you employ Jack "Even Though I'm Only 24, I'm Fat And
    > > Bald With Tattoos" The Lad to build you a wall. When you get the
    > > bill, you find he's also invoiced you for a rather nice rabbit hutch.
    > > When you query it, he tells you the local garden centre submitted
    > > their invoice to him because you *must* have asked for the hutch and
    > > so you've got to pay the whole bill. Would you pay up in such
    > > circumstances?)

    >
    > OK, I'll play along with you! Before paying I think I might ask to see
    > this "invoice" from the garden centre, inform Jack that I did not
    > request this, pay the correct amount of money to Jack for building the
    > wall and then ask the garden centre what their game was. Jack is not to
    > know that I didn't request the rabbit hutch. For all he knows I might be
    > trying to pull a fast one on him.


    Jack shouldn't have taken instructions from a third party as yours, without some sort
    of evidence that they were yours.

    Imagine if banks operated the same way. I go into your bank and say "Jon owes me a
    tenner", so they give me a tenner and debit your account. You then need to chase me
    to get your money back.

    --
    Andy





  14. #14
    Andy Pandy
    Guest

    Re: Premium SMS


    "Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected]lid declared for all the world to hear...
    > > > SO what would happen if every customer questioned every charge?

    > >
    > > The scammers would be quickly discovered and hopefully barred.

    >
    > I meant ever charge on their bill, not just suspected scams.


    What, you mean customers reporting genuine calls/sign-ups as scams? For a start, it
    isn't a problem with CC cardholder not present type transactions, so why would it be
    with phone charges, and secondly, the mobile companies could always impose a charge
    on customers, or even threaten them with legal action, should they subsequently prove
    that the customer did indeed authorise the charge. This would make it likely that
    only customers who were sure the charge wasn't authorised disputed the charge.

    > > > Please cite your source? I'm not saying with absolute certainty that you
    > > > are wrong, but currently I don't believe you to be entirely correct.

    > >
    > > Generally you can't enforce a debt without some sort of evidence that the

    customer
    > > owes the money. If Vodafone claim you owe them on the say-so of a third party,

    they
    > > (Vodafone) must prove that you owe the money.

    >
    > But as part of their agreement with Vodafone to provide services over
    > their network, the content providers sign in to an agreement which says
    > lots of things including something along the lines of "we will do our
    > best to keep the billing accurate" etc,


    That's between Vodafone and the third party - nothing to do with the customer.

    > so Vodafone/3rd party would have
    > to deal with things by exception, rather than by double-confirmation.


    Yes. Just like credit card companies deal with cardholder not present transactions.
    It should be a simple case of:

    1) Customer disputes charge - calls Vodafone (or O2 etc).
    2) Vodafone investigate and seek proof that the customer signed up.
    3) If sign-up not proved, Vodafone refund customer and claims from scammer, scammer
    possibly charged with fraud.
    4) If sign-up proved, customer gets charged plus an admin fee for wasting Vodafone's
    time, or customer is prosecuted if they deliberately lied.

    > > Imagine if banks operated the same way. I go into your bank and say "Jon owes me

    a
    > > tenner", so they give me a tenner and debit your account. You then need to chase

    me
    > > to get your money back.

    >
    > Clearly, that would never happen.


    Exactly. Why should a third party be able to charge your phone bill, but not your
    bank account, without proof that you authorised the charge?

    --
    Andy





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