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  1. #1
    SMS
    Guest
    Mike M wrote:
    > Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> AT&T Wireless is over. TDMA is over.

    >>
    >> navas, none of what you said changes the fact that Cingular ****ed
    >> over every AT&T Wireless customer they acquired.
    >>
    >> Every single one.
    >>

    > They didn't **** me over and I was with AT&T wireless/whatever it was
    > before that since 1992. I was ready for a new phone and a newer
    > technology. And now I have Rollover, which I did NOT have before. So.
    > They didn't **** over every former AT&T customer they had...


    Whatever happened to last July's class action lawsuit on behalf of the
    former AT&T wireless customers? Is it still winding its way through the
    courts? Cingular asked for it to be dismissed of course, but I don't
    think it was. Cingular's position is that all customers agreed to
    binding arbitration.

    "http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/corporate/nw/?postId=7455"

    I know that Cingular finally conceded defeat with the California PUC,
    and paid the fine and penalties, and I thought that they were making an
    effort to get all the lawsuits settled.



    [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
    posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
    and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
    Wireless Service.]



    See More: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"




  2. #2
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:37:17 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Mike M wrote:
    >> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
    >>> In article <[email protected]>,
    >>> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> AT&T Wireless is over. TDMA is over.
    >>>
    >>> navas, none of what you said changes the fact that Cingular ****ed
    >>> over every AT&T Wireless customer they acquired.
    >>>
    >>> Every single one.
    >>>

    >> They didn't **** me over and I was with AT&T wireless/whatever it was
    >> before that since 1992. I was ready for a new phone and a newer
    >> technology. And now I have Rollover, which I did NOT have before. So.
    >> They didn't **** over every former AT&T customer they had...

    >
    >Whatever happened to last July's class action lawsuit on behalf of the
    >former AT&T wireless customers?


    An absurd abuse of process that would mostly just enrich lawyers.

    >Is it still winding its way through the
    >courts? Cingular asked for it to be dismissed of course, but I don't
    >think it was. Cingular's position is that all customers agreed to
    >binding arbitration.
    >
    >"http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/corporate/nw/?postId=7455"


    You don't know that status of significant litigation is disclosed in SEC
    filings? Or you just haven't bothered to look?

    >I know that Cingular finally conceded defeat with the California PUC,
    >and paid the fine and penalties, and I thought that they were making an
    >effort to get all the lawsuits settled.


    Your usual spin notwithstanding, Cingular didn't admit any wrongdoing.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  3. #3
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>>> Of course not. In fact it didn't treat any of them badly, honoring old
    >>>> ATTWS service plans for considerable time even though it had no
    >>>> obligation to do so.
    >>> No obligation to do so?
    >>>
    >>> Yeah, those messy contracts those people signed--you can just ignore
    >>> them anytime you want.

    >> Contracts were in fact honored.
    >>

    >
    > So you contradict yourself?
    >
    > Again?


    Normally, part of the contract you sign states that service will
    continue at the same rate, with the same terms, after the contract
    obligation on the part of the subscriber. It's not like DSL or broadband
    service where there is a period of introductory pricing after which you
    know that the price will go up.

    However this isn't a guarantee, and they do have the right to modify the
    terms after the contract period is over (they can modify them during the
    contract as well, but if they do that then they have to let you cancel
    service without a termination fee).

    As to the "8 pm Off Peak for Life," they didn't say whose life! The life
    of the carrier? The carrier that made the promise doesn't exist anymore.
    I have 8 pm Off Peak on Verizon, and they have kept this in effect for
    many years after they stopped offering it. If I ever change plans then
    I'll lose it. It's probably one of the features that I use the most, and
    it enables me to get by with fewer peak minutes.

    [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
    posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
    and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
    Wireless Service.]



  4. #4
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    jeremy wrote:

    > You ignore the fact that AT&T/CINGULAR promised their customers that nothing
    > would change. I have the notice, signed by both presidents.
    >
    > AT&T made much of "lifetime" perks, as long as the customer remained on his
    > plan and paid the bill each month. Cingular, as successor, had a moral and,
    > I believe, a legal obligation to uphold ATTWS' commitments.


    What they did with the $5 surcharge for continuing on TDMA to the bitter
    end violated that promise, but other than that they could argue that
    customers that switched to a a GSM plan, for whatever reason, were no
    longer on the plan they signed up for. On the other hand, the technology
    change was not something that those AT&T customers asked for, so you
    could argue that Cingular should have kept them on plans with the same
    cost structure even when they moved them to GSM.

    > I left--for Sprint--and couldn't have been happier. It's been 14 months
    > now, and I have had no surprises and no fine print.


    Good for you. For many of us, Sprint and T-Mobile are not viable
    options. I.e., I just got pissed at PagePlus because by not adding money
    within 4 months to my daughter's prepaid account, I had lost the $50
    balance on the account (they restored it, but just this once). I looked
    into prepaid from T-Mobile, but they still have no coverage (well 1 bar)
    on the map for my area. Sprint also has big gaps in coverage. I know the
    reasons for these gaps, as I follow the planning commission meetings
    where Sprint and T-Mobile are routinely denied permits for new sites.
    They have a double disadvantage in that they arrived on the scene after
    cities got stricter about permits for sites, and they operate at 1900
    MHz which has less range per site. Other cities in my area present
    similar obstacles to the PCS carriers.

    Many of us are stuck if we want the most complete coverage for our area.
    In the SF Bay Area, Verizon has the best coverage by a wide margin, with
    Cingular a distant second, and Sprint and T-Mobile an even further
    distant third and fourth. I know that it some areas of the country this
    is not the situation, but that's the fact of the matter in my area.

    > Cingular COULD have turned us former ATTWS customers into boosters, instead
    > of detractors.


    Clearly they made the business decision to dump the low ARPU customers
    because they knew that a sufficient number of those customers with
    sweetheart deals would agree to the higher cost plans rather than leave.
    After all, even the higher priced Cingular plans were no more expensive
    than the offerings from the other carriers.


    [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
    posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
    and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
    Wireless Service.]



  5. #5
    jeremy
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > What they did with the $5 surcharge for continuing on TDMA to the bitter
    > end violated that promise, but other than that they could argue that
    > customers that switched to a a GSM plan, for whatever reason, were no
    > longer on the plan they signed up for. On the other hand, the technology
    > change was not something that those AT&T customers asked for, so you could
    > argue that Cingular should have kept them on plans with the same cost
    > structure even when they moved them to GSM.
    >


    I agree completely, in principle. But, what is TDMA vs. GSM to the
    consumer? Merely a change in transmission protocol?

    Cingular COULD HAVE offered an attractive upgrade path. Perhaps free or
    subsidized GSM phones and a monthly price for service that reflected the
    loyalty of ATTWS' long-time customers. I wonder, if AT&T were still around,
    would they have been so indifferent?

    Anyway, Cingular pissed me off. I'm sure that they offer a good level of
    service, but I just didn't want to give them my business, so I jumped ship.
    Fortunately, my wireless phone requirements are so modest that virtually any
    carrier could have satisfied them. I rarely roam beyond 100 miles from
    home. I need no data services. All I want to do is to make and receive
    occasional calls, and to have free M2M. Sprint stepped up to the plate and
    offered me free phones, no activation fees, excellent service here in
    Philadelphia and no surprises. I pay my $90/month for three lines and I'm
    perfectly happy.

    I may not be the most desirable customer, in terms of my low usage, but
    neither am I unprofitable. I make a few calls, pay my bill each month, make
    very few requests of Customer Service, and life goes on.

    Cingular didn't have to treat me as though I were a new customer, with no
    track record. They made that decision and millions of us left--and will
    probably never look back. I just cannot imagine how any business could turn
    away millions of customers, but I won't lose any sleep over that question.
    I'm extremely pleased with Sprint.

    Sprint phoned me a few days ago, just to ask if everything was all right
    with their service. That speaks volumes about the way they view their
    customers, versus Cingular's view of them.





  6. #6
    jeremy
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    "Todd Allcock" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:462ef06e$0$16306>


    > Hindsight is, of course, 20/20, but the AT&T TDMA
    > customers had ample opportunity to switch to GSM at excellent "fire sale"
    > rates before the merger- AT&T made it clear long before the merger that
    > they were phasing out TDMA.
    >
    >



    My recollection is that the GSM network was much less reliable than the TDMA
    network, when it was first rolled out, and that ATTWS refused to let their
    customers switch back if they were dissatisfied. I was planning to wait
    until GSM had been rolled out more. ATTWS offered me a one-year contract
    extension on TDMA at an excellent price, and I took it. By the end of that
    term, Cingular was in charge--and I found my phones would shut down whenever
    I drove beyond my home area, and it would take forever to log on to a tower
    after turning my phone on.

    I can't say whether Cingular's actions were legal, but they certainly seemed
    to be stupid. All I wanted was a fair shake--and the Cingular people
    treated me like I was a new customer, unentitled to any more discounts or
    perks.

    In any event, Sprint has proven themselves to be a very satisfactory
    replacement, and I doubt that I will ever go back to Cingular/ATT. Life
    goes on.





  7. #7
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    jeremy wrote:

    > My recollection is that the GSM network was much less reliable than the TDMA
    > network, when it was first rolled out, and that ATTWS refused to let their
    > customers switch back if they were dissatisfied.


    Yes, this is true. This is the issue that a relative of mine had. She
    was conned into getting a new handset on the GSM network, and suddenly
    her coverage became much poorer. Remember that the initial AT&T Wireless
    GSM deployment was at 1900 MHz where they had 1900 MHz spectrum, and
    they were running TDMA and AMPS on 800 MHz.

    Remember what happened in Hawaii with AT&T Wireless. They were selling
    the Nokia 3650 (GSM 900/1800/1900) to the customers they converted to
    GSM because their GSM was at 1900 MHz. Then they began converting their
    800 MHz spectrum to GSM, but all the people with the 3650 phones
    couldn't access most of the GSM network, and had to buy new phones.

    Voicestream's and Pac Bells original rollout of GSM in the U.S. was 1900
    MHz only and spawned a lot of these so-called GSM 900/1800/1900 "World
    Phones." Unfortunately, the legacy of these tri-band chip sets continues
    with phones like the V3xx which is GSM 800/1800/1900, and is virtually
    worthless in Europe and Asia, especially if you want to use a prepaid SIM.



  8. #8
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:20:29 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Many of us are stuck if we want the most complete coverage for our area.
    >In the SF Bay Area, Verizon has the best coverage by a wide margin, with
    >Cingular a distant second, and Sprint and T-Mobile an even further
    >distant third and fourth. I know that it some areas of the country this
    >is not the situation, but that's the fact of the matter in my area.


    In fact AT&T/Cingular has the best overall coverage in the San Francisco
    Bay Area, followed by Verizon, T-Mobile, and Sprint (in that order).

    That said, no one carrier has the best coverage in all areas, so you
    should check coverage in areas you care about most before selecting a
    carrier.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  9. #9
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:18:22 GMT, "jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> What they did with the $5 surcharge for continuing on TDMA to the bitter
    >> end violated that promise, but other than that they could argue that
    >> customers that switched to a a GSM plan, for whatever reason, were no
    >> longer on the plan they signed up for. On the other hand, the technology
    >> change was not something that those AT&T customers asked for, so you could
    >> argue that Cingular should have kept them on plans with the same cost
    >> structure even when they moved them to GSM.

    >
    >I agree completely, in principle. But, what is TDMA vs. GSM to the
    >consumer? Merely a change in transmission protocol?


    Actually a fundamentally different technology that was already being
    phased out of ATTWS.

    >Cingular COULD HAVE offered an attractive upgrade path.


    It did, as good or better than any other carrier.

    >Perhaps free or
    >subsidized GSM phones


    It did.

    >and a monthly price for service that reflected the
    >loyalty of ATTWS' long-time customers.


    Makes no sense.

    >I wonder, if AT&T were still around,
    >would they have been so indifferent?


    Almost certainly. ATTWS _isn't_ around, in part because it made bad
    business deals. To be still be around it would have had to run its
    business better.

    >Anyway, Cingular pissed me off.


    Clearly. But time now to move on and stop trolling here.

    >Cingular didn't have to treat me as though I were a new customer, with no
    >track record. They made that decision and millions of us left--and will
    >probably never look back. I just cannot imagine how any business could turn
    >away millions of customers, ...


    It didn't do that. In fact it did a very good job of retaining ATTWS
    customers.

    >Sprint phoned me a few days ago, just to ask if everything was all right
    >with their service. That speaks volumes about the way they view their
    >customers, versus Cingular's view of them.


    It's actually just a meaningless anecdote, and probably reflects how
    Sprint is struggling compared to AT&T/Cingular.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  10. #10
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:33:06 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >As often happens in senior circles, she told her friends about
    >10¢/minute prepaid on T-Mobile (which works fine in south Florida) and
    >several of them also left AT&T/Cingular and they told their friends, and
    >pretty soon the entire extended circle of friends had left for T-Mobile
    >prepaid (the two 800 MHz carriers in south Florida were Cingular and
    >AT&T and they had the lions share of customers because Voicestream and
    >Verizon were stuck at the less desirable 1900 MHz and had no AMPS
    >network).


    The 1900 band is just as desirable as the 800 band.

    >> Cingular COULD HAVE offered an attractive upgrade path. Perhaps free or
    >> subsidized GSM phones and a monthly price for service that reflected the
    >> loyalty of ATTWS' long-time customers. I wonder, if AT&T were still around,
    >> would they have been so indifferent?

    >
    >They could have handled it better, that's for sure. ...


    It actually handled it very well, as measured by any objective standard.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  11. #11
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:12:30 GMT, "jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >I can't say whether Cingular's actions were legal, but they certainly seemed
    >to be stupid. All I wanted was a fair shake--and the Cingular people
    >treated me like I was a new customer, unentitled to any more discounts or
    >perks.


    Cingular give you a fair shake. What you wanted was special treatment.

    >In any event, Sprint has proven themselves to be a very satisfactory
    >replacement, and I doubt that I will ever go back to Cingular/ATT. Life
    >goes on.


    Then why are you still trolling here?

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  12. #12
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:31:04 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >... Unfortunately, the legacy of these tri-band chip sets continues
    >with phones like the V3xx which is GSM 800/1800/1900, and is virtually
    >worthless in Europe and Asia, especially if you want to use a prepaid SIM.


    In fact tri-band GSM 800/1800/1900 works quite well in most areas
    outside of the USA.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  13. #13
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    jeremy wrote:

    > I just don't get it. Why all this animosity against Sprint? When I think
    > of all the Cingular problems, Sprint seems like a breath of fresh air.


    Sprint's biggest problem is coverage. They have two strikes against
    them. First they are PCS, which requires more towers than cellular to
    achieve the same coverage area. Second, they entered the game later than
    the cellular carriers, and weren't able to site all those towers before
    local governments started regulating them.

    On paper, Sprint looks great. But look at all the independent surveys of
    the carriers. In my area, Sprint ranks as low as Cingular and T-Mobile.

    Consumers have wised up when it comes to choosing carriers. They no
    longer look only at price and features, and they now understand the huge
    differences in quality of coverage. In my area, the San Francisco Bay
    Area, Verizon is so far ahead of the other three carriers, that there is
    no competition when it comes to choosing a carrier based on coverage.
    The only reason anyone chooses Cingular is because they want GSM roaming
    in Europe and Asia, or because they want a particular handset that isn't
    available from Verizon. Other than that, the differences in coverage are
    so significant, than Verizon is the carrier of choice. Sprint and
    T-Mobile customers are pretty rare.


    [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
    posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going away,
    and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding AT&T's
    Wireless Service.]



  14. #14
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    At 29 Apr 2007 14:10:41 -0700 SMS wrote:

    > Consumers have wised up when it comes to choosing carriers. They no
    > longer look only at price and features, and they now understand the
    > huge differences in quality of coverage.



    And yet only 30% of cellular customers choose Verizon, the only carrier
    you deem worthy of choosing.

    So, using your own argument, either 70% of cellular customers are idiots,
    70% don't really care about coverage, or, just possibly, Verizon's
    coverage isn't quite as superior to all others as you believe.
    > Sprint and T-Mobile customers are pretty rare.


    They must all be hiding from you then, because combined they hold roughly
    35% of the cellular market.



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com




  15. #15
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 29 Apr 2007 14:10:41 -0700 SMS wrote:
    >
    >> Consumers have wised up when it comes to choosing carriers. They no
    >> longer look only at price and features, and they now understand the
    >> huge differences in quality of coverage.

    >
    >
    > And yet only 30% of cellular customers choose Verizon, the only carrier
    > you deem worthy of choosing.


    I was talking about in my area, the San Francisco Bay Area. As the
    surveys show, in other areas the different carriers are not as disparate
    in terms of coverage. Yes, Verizon does lead in almost every market, but
    not by such a wide margin.



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