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  1. #16
    Justin
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    George wrote on [Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:52:51 -0400]:
    > On 8/9/2010 10:23 PM, David wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> "Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >>> news:[email protected]:
    >>>
    >>>> The Federal Communications Commission last week called off talks aimed
    >>>> at agreeing rules for net neutrality, and has proposed extending its
    >>>> regulatory remit to enforce a set of internet rules.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> America will never see free wireless internet as long as free enterprise
    >>> has anything to do with it.....

    >>
    >> Are you smoking something? Nothing is free! Either you pay for it
    >> directly or pay for it through taxes.
    >>
    >> David
    >>
    >>

    > He is one of those folks where "free" means the government forcibly
    > takes it out of someone elses pocket to pay for his service. Obviously
    > businesses are evil because he would have to pay to recover the billions
    > spent in infrastructure, salaries, licenses etc.


    You mean the billions the telcos were subsidised by the govt to begin with?



    See More: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan




  2. #17
    Zeppo
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan



    "Kurt Ullman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > George <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Interesting, too, given what is developing the regular superhighway.
    > More and more places with toll roads are developing speedier lanes that
    > base their tolls on demand. Thus, if you are in the lanes at the top of
    > rush hour, the toll can be 2-3 times what the guys next door in the
    > regular lanes are paying. You decide if the extra money is worth it to
    > you.
    >
    > --
    > I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
    > and name it after the IRS.
    > Robert Bakker, paleontologist


    Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I haven't seen that on the east
    coast yet, but I don't travel too far outside the northeast all that much.

    Jon




  3. #18
    Richard B. Gilbert
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    Justin wrote:
    > George wrote on [Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:52:51 -0400]:
    >> On 8/9/2010 10:23 PM, David wrote:
    >>>
    >>> "Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]...
    >>>> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >>>> news:[email protected]:
    >>>>
    >>>>> The Federal Communications Commission last week called off talks aimed
    >>>>> at agreeing rules for net neutrality, and has proposed extending its
    >>>>> regulatory remit to enforce a set of internet rules.
    >>>>>
    >>>> America will never see free wireless internet as long as free enterprise
    >>>> has anything to do with it.....
    >>> Are you smoking something? Nothing is free! Either you pay for it
    >>> directly or pay for it through taxes.
    >>>
    >>> David
    >>>
    >>>

    >> He is one of those folks where "free" means the government forcibly
    >> takes it out of someone elses pocket to pay for his service. Obviously
    >> businesses are evil because he would have to pay to recover the billions
    >> spent in infrastructure, salaries, licenses etc.

    >
    > You mean the billions the telcos were subsidised by the govt to begin with?


    Just which billions are you talking about and to whom were they paid?
    By whom were they paid? Please cite your sources along with dates,
    amounts, name of payer, name of recipient, etc. Be specific and be
    prepared to offer proof! "THEY" cuts no ice!!!

    The Telcos are "regulated monopolies" and have been almost since Bell
    said "Watson! Come here please, I need you!". Collectively, they have
    an enormous investment in poles, wires, central office equipment, etc,
    etc. And don't forget the battery backups and the gasoline/diesel
    generators that kick in when the power company rolls over and dies. You
    *HAVE* noticed that the phones mostly still work even when the lights don't?



  4. #19
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Zeppo" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I haven't seen that on the east
    > coast yet, but I don't travel too far outside the northeast all that much.
    >
    > Jon


    They are talking about it Indy. They have a couple areas in and around
    Miami. I thought there was some talk in Boston.

    --
    I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
    and name it after the IRS.
    Robert Bakker, paleontologist



  5. #20
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:52:51 -0400, in
    <[email protected]>, George
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On 8/9/2010 10:23 PM, David wrote:
    >>
    >> "Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >>> news:[email protected]:
    >>>
    >>>> The Federal Communications Commission last week called off talks aimed
    >>>> at agreeing rules for net neutrality, and has proposed extending its
    >>>> regulatory remit to enforce a set of internet rules.
    >>>
    >>> America will never see free wireless internet as long as free enterprise
    >>> has anything to do with it.....

    >>
    >> Are you smoking something? Nothing is free! Either you pay for it
    >> directly or pay for it through taxes.
    >>

    >He is one of those folks where "free" means the government forcibly
    >takes it out of someone elses pocket to pay for his service. Obviously
    >businesses are evil because he would have to pay to recover the billions
    >spent in infrastructure, salaries, licenses etc.


    Spectrum is free. It only becomes not free when government (we) decides
    to sell it to a commercial entity.

    --
    John

    "We have met the enemy and he is us" -Pogo



  6. #21
    Justin
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    Kurt Ullman wrote on [Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:52:53 -0400]:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Zeppo" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I haven't seen that on the east
    >> coast yet, but I don't travel too far outside the northeast all that much.
    >>
    >> Jon

    >
    > They are talking about it Indy. They have a couple areas in and around


    Indy as in Indianapolis? Where? There's currently no toll roads here



  7. #22
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Justin <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Kurt Ullman wrote on [Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:52:53 -0400]:
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "Zeppo" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I haven't seen that on the
    > >> east
    > >> coast yet, but I don't travel too far outside the northeast all that much.
    > >>
    > >> Jon

    > >
    > > They are talking about it Indy. They have a couple areas in and around

    >
    > Indy as in Indianapolis? Where? There's currently no toll roads here


    They have been talking about maybe making some of the new lane
    construction on I-465 variable toll. The trial balloon just went up a
    couple of weeks ago, so it is still in the future, if at all. The Star
    had abig article on it.

    --
    I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
    and name it after the IRS.
    Robert Bakker, paleontologist



  8. #23
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    On 10/08/10 6:48 AM, Justin wrote:

    <snip>

    > You mean the billions the telcos were subsidised by the govt to begin with?


    And much of the subsidized copper is still in use. AT&T's U-verse still
    uses copper for the "last mile" (though it's less than a mile now).





  9. #24
    George
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    On 8/10/2010 11:46 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
    > In article<[email protected]>,
    > Justin<[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Kurt Ullman wrote on [Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:52:53 -0400]:
    >>> In article<[email protected]>,
    >>> "Zeppo"<[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I haven't seen that on the
    >>>> east
    >>>> coast yet, but I don't travel too far outside the northeast all that much.
    >>>>
    >>>> Jon
    >>>
    >>> They are talking about it Indy. They have a couple areas in and around

    >>
    >> Indy as in Indianapolis? Where? There's currently no toll roads here

    >
    > They have been talking about maybe making some of the new lane
    > construction on I-465 variable toll. The trial balloon just went up a
    > couple of weeks ago, so it is still in the future, if at all. The Star
    > had abig article on it.
    >


    We have a different thing in PA. Our soon to be former governor really,
    really, really wants to convert most major roads into turnpikes. The PA
    turnpike is a giant stupendously bureaucratic inefficient organization
    filled with political appointees.

    So far he hasn't been able to advance his plan. The best part is we
    already have a very efficient way to pay for roads in the form of the
    liquid fuels tax.



  10. #25
    Owen McKenzie
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan


    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:34:47 -0500, in
    > <[email protected]>, Paul Miner
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 21:27:04 -0700, John Navas
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:20:09 -0500, in
    >>><[email protected]>, Paul Miner
    >>><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 20:52:58 -0700, John Navas
    >>>><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 19:50:28 -0700, in
    >>>>><[email protected]>, SMS
    >>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>On 09/08/10 7:23 PM, David wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> America will never see free wireless internet as long as free
    >>>>>>>> enterprise
    >>>>>>>> has anything to do with it.....
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Are you smoking something? Nothing is free! Either you pay for it
    >>>>>>> directly or pay for it through taxes.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>The other thing that's been tried is paying for it through advertising
    >>>>>>revenue. A company in the SF Bay Area, Metro-Fi tried that for several
    >>>>>>cities, including mine, but it didn't work out financially. Google
    >>>>>>provides free wireless in some cities, and it's the Google
    >>>>>>shareholders
    >>>>>>that are ultimately paying for it I suppose.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>The public entities that provide wireless do it with tax money, but
    >>>>>>it's
    >>>>>>such an inconsequential cost that it's lost in the noise.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>The cost of Wi-Fi service at (say) public libraries is actually a
    >>>>>significant measurable cost.
    >>>>
    >>>>Measurable, yes, but significant only if you get to define the word
    >>>>'significant'. Otherwise it's barely a blip among the rest of the
    >>>>operating expenses.
    >>>
    >>>I take it you've never actually looked at a budget, or know how strapped
    >>>libraries are for operating funds.

    >>
    >>Your guess is wrong, as usual.

    >
    > Then which ones?
    >
    > --
    > John
    >
    > "Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
    > [Wethern's Law of Suspended Judgement]


    Can either one of you provide a link to a library budget showing wi-fi
    costs? If not, you're not likely to convince anyone.

    BTW, I am aware of how libraries are feeling the pinch, & have made
    suggestions at more that one as to how to increase revenue and/or cut costs.

    --
    Owen McKenzie
    Pigeon Forge, TN

    The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe
    the people with their own money.
    - Unsourced attribution to Alexander Fraser Tytler (often misattributed to
    Alexis de Tocqueville)




  11. #26
    George
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    On 8/10/2010 11:21 AM, John Navas wrote:
    > On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:52:51 -0400, in
    > <[email protected]>, George
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> On 8/9/2010 10:23 PM, David wrote:
    >>>
    >>> "Larry"<[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]...
    >>>> John Navas<[email protected]> wrote in
    >>>> news:[email protected]:
    >>>>
    >>>>> The Federal Communications Commission last week called off talks aimed
    >>>>> at agreeing rules for net neutrality, and has proposed extending its
    >>>>> regulatory remit to enforce a set of internet rules.
    >>>>
    >>>> America will never see free wireless internet as long as free enterprise
    >>>> has anything to do with it.....
    >>>
    >>> Are you smoking something? Nothing is free! Either you pay for it
    >>> directly or pay for it through taxes.
    >>>

    >> He is one of those folks where "free" means the government forcibly
    >> takes it out of someone elses pocket to pay for his service. Obviously
    >> businesses are evil because he would have to pay to recover the billions
    >> spent in infrastructure, salaries, licenses etc.

    >
    > Spectrum is free. It only becomes not free when government (we) decides
    > to sell it to a commercial entity.
    >


    Absolutely, how do you propose we use the "free" spectrum to communicate
    unless either a business spends the money to install a system or the
    government removes money from the pockets of others to pay for a system?



  12. #27
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:50:15 -0400, in
    <[email protected]>, "Owen McKenzie"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...


    >>>>>>The cost of Wi-Fi service at (say) public libraries is actually a
    >>>>>>significant measurable cost.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Measurable, yes, but significant only if you get to define the word
    >>>>>'significant'. Otherwise it's barely a blip among the rest of the
    >>>>>operating expenses.
    >>>>
    >>>>I take it you've never actually looked at a budget, or know how strapped
    >>>>libraries are for operating funds.
    >>>
    >>>Your guess is wrong, as usual.

    >>
    >> Then which ones?

    >
    >Can either one of you provide a link to a library budget showing wi-fi
    >costs? If not, you're not likely to convince anyone.


    I'm not trying to convince anyone (especially in this forum) --
    I'm just providing information (for those few with sincere interest).

    The budgets I've worked with have all been in paper form during public
    meetings. They may be online, but I don't offhand know where (and don't
    have time to waste on a fool's errand).

    >BTW, I am aware of how libraries are feeling the pinch, & have made
    >suggestions at more that one as to how to increase revenue and/or cut costs.


    Already tight budgets are being slashed further as cities desperately
    try to solve budget problems, hours are being reduced, staff is being
    laid off, acquisition budgets cut or even eliminated, and the (fully
    loaded) cost of Internet service is large enough to make a difference.

    "State budget cuts threaten free Internet service at 200 New Jersey
    public libraries" <http://goo.gl/pw9E> Is that convincing enough?

    --
    John

    "Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
    [Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]



  13. #28
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:53:07 -0400, in
    <[email protected]>, George
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On 8/10/2010 11:21 AM, John Navas wrote:


    >> Spectrum is free. It only becomes not free when government (we) decides
    >> to sell it to a commercial entity.

    >
    >Absolutely, how do you propose we use the "free" spectrum to communicate
    >unless either a business spends the money to install a system or the
    >government removes money from the pockets of others to pay for a system?


    2-way radio works fine without those things.

    --
    John

    "Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
    [Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]



  14. #29
    stevev
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan


    "Kurt Ullman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Justin <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Kurt Ullman wrote on [Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:52:53 -0400]:
    >> > In article <[email protected]>,
    >> > "Zeppo" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Interesting, I hadn't heard of that before. I haven't seen that on the
    >> >> east
    >> >> coast yet, but I don't travel too far outside the northeast all that
    >> >> much.
    >> >>
    >> >> Jon
    >> >
    >> > They are talking about it Indy. They have a couple areas in and around

    >>
    >> Indy as in Indianapolis? Where? There's currently no toll roads here

    >
    > They have been talking about maybe making some of the new lane
    > construction on I-465 variable toll. The trial balloon just went up a
    > couple of weeks ago, so it is still in the future, if at all. The Star
    > had abig article on it.
    >
    > --
    > I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
    > and name it after the IRS.
    > Robert Bakker, paleontologist


    They do this in Southern California on a limited basis. For example, the
    91 Express (toll road) runs from Riverside to Orange County in the median of
    the existing State "freeway". It has limited access, but includes access to
    high-occupancy vehicles (used to be called car pools) and motorcycles.
    There are no toll booths with fees being collected using the FasTrak system
    (an RFID transponder). It costs about a dollar a mile to use and has been
    hugely successful. The concept works well, but is mired in complicated
    useage, ownership, funding and environmental issues.


    --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---



  15. #30
    Richard B. Gilbert
    Guest

    Re: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

    John Navas wrote:
    > On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:53:07 -0400, in
    > <[email protected]>, George
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> On 8/10/2010 11:21 AM, John Navas wrote:

    >
    >>> Spectrum is free. It only becomes not free when government (we) decides
    >>> to sell it to a commercial entity.

    >> Absolutely, how do you propose we use the "free" spectrum to communicate
    >> unless either a business spends the money to install a system or the
    >> government removes money from the pockets of others to pay for a system?

    >
    > 2-way radio works fine without those things.
    >


    It does? Do you, perhaps, remember the Citizens Band craze of about
    thirty years ago? It was a real zoo for two or three years. I think I
    still have a transceiver somewhere. At least a million people who had
    nothing to say and insisted on talking anyway!!! The people "shooting
    skip"? When conditions were just right your signal could be heard 2000,
    or more, miles away. I think it finally choked on it's own waste products!





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