NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:48:35 -0700, John Navas
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Again: Spectrum is free. It only becomes not free when government (we)
>decides to sell it to a commercial entity.

I think the word you're looking for is lease or license, rather than
sell.

--
Paul Miner

---

› See More: NEWS: Google and Verizon unveil Web plan

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:47:22 -0700, John Navas
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:54:01 -0700, in
><[email protected]>, SMS
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 10/08/10 11:34 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Just out of personal curiosity, I spent some time looking around
>>> various websites and none of the 15 libraries I stumbled across gave
>>> budget figures for broke out Internet costs. Some did break out things
>>> like the computers and money they sent to someplace for shared services
>>> (like some group buying of database access, etc). But nothing specific
>>> to the costs of phone lines and bandwidth.
>>
>>The wireless internet at libraries is basically a one-time expenditure
>>to install it. The library already has high speed service for other
>>purposes. I.e. at our county library system, all the processing for card
>>catalogs, checkout, etc. for all the branches is handled at a
>>centralized location so they already have to have a big pipe.
>>
>>They put in wireless without adding any more capacity, so it's rather
>>slow, but I guess that stops massive downloading.
>
>Not true:
> * Support is a huge ongoing cost.
> * The pipe usually is much bigger than it would have to be otherwise.
> * Complaints from slow performance are a big headache.

Support is a huge ongoing cost? Again, only if you get to stretch the
definition of huge so that it includes the tiniest bit of noise in the
weeds. Ongoing cost is practically nonexistent.

--
Paul Miner

On 10/08/10 1:08 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

> That's not the feeling from the news stories. They usually point out
> all the people who need it, etc. They trot out killing off Internet as a
> main reason they NEED extra money from the state, locals, etc.

It's a convenient reason to put forward to justify more parcel taxes,
and since the wireless is used so heavily by students, threatening to
cut it has the desired effect because the parents of school-age kids are
among the most likely to be voting for increased parcel taxes for libraries.

We have a very nice new library in my town, and the Friends of the
Library does a good job in providing services to students, especially
high school students. During exam time they open the nearby community
hall as a study center and provide free food and drinks. It's packed.

The cost of providing wireless is such a tiny incremental cost that it's
lost in the noise. It's a one-time capital investment with minor
continuing costs for equipment maintenance, replacement, and
administration. It does not require purchasing additional broadband
capacity.

On 10/08/10 1:16 PM, nospam wrote:

> not at the libraries where i've used it. in fact it was fairly slow,
> likely the base level dsl link, which as i said, the library already
> has. not only that but at most of them, nearly all ports were blocked
> other than 80/443.

At our library, you can't use VPN on the wireless which may be related
to this. Fortunately from the library (depending on where you're
sitting) you have access to three other free wireless networks besides
the library's own wireless.

The library's own wireless is pretty slow--they are not paying for a big
pipe for the free wireless they're using their existing connections.
Some libraries have better systems, i.e. I was in the San Mateo city
library and they have a very good wireless system that probably does
cost them a few hundred dollars a month.

I would not be surprised if the in the library's budget they have a line
item in the IT budget for the wireless that exceeds the incremental cost
of providing it.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:08:19 -0400, in
<[email protected]>, Kurt Ullman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Not true: The number of Internet users is a small percentage of those
>> paying the taxes, and probably the ones least likely to vote. Which is
>> why it's floated as just one of many cutbacks.
>
> That's not the feeling from the news stories. They usually point out
>all the people who need it, etc. They trot out killing off Internet as a
>main reason they NEED extra money from the state, locals, etc.

That's not how I read them.

--
John

"Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
[Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:46:58 -0700, in
<[email protected]>, SMS
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 10/08/10 1:08 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
>
>> That's not the feeling from the news stories. They usually point out
>> all the people who need it, etc. They trot out killing off Internet as a
>> main reason they NEED extra money from the state, locals, etc.
>
>It's a convenient reason to put forward to justify more parcel taxes,
>and since the wireless is used so heavily by students, threatening to
>cut it has the desired effect because the parents of school-age kids are
>among the most likely to be voting for increased parcel taxes for libraries.
>
>We have a very nice new library in my town, and the Friends of the
>Library does a good job in providing services to students, especially
>high school students. During exam time they open the nearby community
>hall as a study center and provide free food and drinks. It's packed.
>
>The cost of providing wireless is such a tiny incremental cost that it's
>lost in the noise. It's a one-time capital investment with minor
>continuing costs for equipment maintenance, replacement, and
>administration. It does not require purchasing additional broadband
>capacity.

Nope. See my prior response for why.

--
John

"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain
"A little learning is a dangerous thing." -Alexander Pope
"Being ignorant is not so much a shame,
as being unwilling to learn." -Benjamin Franklin

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:27:25 -0500, in
<[email protected]>, Paul Miner
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>Not true:
>> * Support is a huge ongoing cost.
>> * The pipe usually is much bigger than it would have to be otherwise.
>> * Complaints from slow performance are a big headache.
>
>Support is a huge ongoing cost? Again, only if you get to stretch the
>definition of huge so that it includes the tiniest bit of noise in the
>weeds. Ongoing cost is practically nonexistent.

It's actually quite significant, just as it is for commercial
enterprises. The only reason it's small is that budgets don't permit
proper funding.

--
John

"Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
[Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:06:18 -0400, in
<[email protected]>, Kurt Ullman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:34:16 -0400, in
>> <[email protected]>, Kurt Ullman
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "State budget cuts threaten free Internet service at 200 New Jersey
>> >> public libraries" <http://goo.gl/pw9E> Is that convincing enough?
>> >
>> > Nope. It said that is one of many costs being cut. Just the one that
>> >the library folks thought would get the most play (and it did... that
>> >was one of the Catastrophies to befall Indy's library, too). Unless you
>> >are seriously trying to assert that Internet is half of the Library's
>> >budget since that is what the cut was.
>>
>> Why am I not surprised.
>> As I surmised, a fool's errand.
>
> With you being the fool, of course.

Of course. I fell for it.

--
John

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive,
difficult to redirect, awe inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --Gene Spafford

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:45:42 -0500, in
<[email protected]>, "NotMe" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news[email protected]...

>>>>The cost of Wi-Fi service at (say) public libraries is actually a
>>>>significant measurable cost.
>>>
>>>Measurable, yes, but significant only if you get to define the word
>>>'significant'. Otherwise it's barely a blip among the rest of the
>>>operating expenses.
>>
>> I take it you've never actually looked at a budget, or know how strapped
>> libraries are for operating funds.
>
>I have and the real world impact of library based wifi is very incremental
>at worst and when the entire operation is considered is actually a cost
>savings especially when calculated in terms of the number of patrons
>served/$$.

"State budget cuts threaten free Internet service at 200 New Jersey
public libraries" <http://goo.gl/pw9E>

--
John

"Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
[Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:41:39 -0500, in
<[email protected]>, "NotMe" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"John Navas" <
>>>
>>>The public entities that provide wireless do it with tax money, but it's
>>>such an inconsequential cost that it's lost in the noise.
>>
>> The cost of Wi-Fi service at (say) public libraries is actually a
>> significant measurable cost.
>
>How so? Cost of equipment is basically a one time capital cost. web access
>is part and parcel of the library's back haul and is at most a incremental
>cost which is subsidized regardless.
>
>I did pro bono support at a few rural library systems and the cost of
>aftermarket ink and paper for the printer/fax was higher then the cost of
>the wifi system and support even if we factored in my labor cost at FMV.
>
>The number of patrons served was increased by folk bringing their own lap
>tops without an increase in the number of hardware seats and associated
>cost.

"State budget cuts threaten free Internet service at 200 New Jersey
public libraries" <http://goo.gl/pw9E> Is that convincing enough?

--
John

"Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
[Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:25:00 -0500, in
<[email protected]>, Paul Miner
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:48:35 -0700, John Navas
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Again: Spectrum is free. It only becomes not free when government (we)
>>decides to sell it to a commercial entity.
>
>I think the word you're looking for is lease or license, rather than
>sell.

When there's no real danger of losing the license, which becomes a form
of entitlement, it's effectively a sale.

--
John

"Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
[Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:53:15 -0700, in
<[email protected]>, SMS
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 10/08/10 1:16 PM, nospam wrote:
>
>> not at the libraries where i've used it. in fact it was fairly slow,
>> likely the base level dsl link, which as i said, the library already
>> has. not only that but at most of them, nearly all ports were blocked
>> other than 80/443.
>
>At our library, you can't use VPN on the wireless which may be related
>to this. Fortunately from the library (depending on where you're
>sitting) you have access to three other free wireless networks besides
>the library's own wireless.
>
>The library's own wireless is pretty slow--they are not paying for a big
>pipe for the free wireless they're using their existing connections.
>Some libraries have better systems, i.e. I was in the San Mateo city
>library and they have a very good wireless system that probably does
>cost them a few hundred dollars a month.
>
>I would not be surprised if the in the library's budget they have a line
>item in the IT budget for the wireless that exceeds the incremental cost
>of providing it.

In other words, you've never actually looked -- you're just making
assumptions (as usual).

--
John

"Assumption is the mother of all screw ups."
[Wethern’s Law of Suspended Judgement]

In article <[email protected]>, John Navas
<[email protected]> wrote:

> >>Not true:
> >> * Support is a huge ongoing cost.
> >> * The pipe usually is much bigger than it would have to be otherwise.
> >> * Complaints from slow performance are a big headache.
> >
> >Support is a huge ongoing cost? Again, only if you get to stretch the
> >definition of huge so that it includes the tiniest bit of noise in the
> >weeds. Ongoing cost is practically nonexistent.
>
> It's actually quite significant, just as it is for commercial
> enterprises. The only reason it's small is that budgets don't permit
> proper funding.

if it's significant, then they're mismanaged because as i said, in the
libraries i've used wifi, support was basically the cost of printing a
sheet of paper. i've been in commercial enterprises where support is
even *less* than in a library. i can think of a couple of hotels, where
you were basically on your own.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:17:21 -0500, in
<[email protected]>, "NotMe" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"Kurt Ullman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>> Interesting, too, given what is developing the regular superhighway.
>> More and more places with toll roads are developing speedier lanes that
>> base their tolls on demand. Thus, if you are in the lanes at the top of
>> rush hour, the toll can be 2-3 times what the guys next door in the
>> regular lanes are paying. You decide if the extra money is worth it to
>> you.
>
>I have some small problem with that but I do have a serious problem with is
>where someone else has $$ control over what I access. I recall a few years
>ago someone with ATT made the determination that elements of a song (for a
>concern that people paid to access) was politically offensive and cut the
>feed.

That's unusual, because it risks losing their legal immunity.

--
John

"We have met the enemy and he is us" -Pogo

In article <[email protected]>, SMS
<[email protected]> wrote:

> > not at the libraries where i've used it. in fact it was fairly slow,
> > likely the base level dsl link, which as i said, the library already
> > has. not only that but at most of them, nearly all ports were blocked
> > other than 80/443.
>
> At our library, you can't use VPN on the wireless which may be related
> to this. Fortunately from the library (depending on where you're
> sitting) you have access to three other free wireless networks besides
> the library's own wireless.

i never tried vpn from a library but i know of two libraries where ssh
is blocked. fortunately, i can ssh over port 80 (the provider did that
for exactly that scenario).

> The library's own wireless is pretty slow--they are not paying for a big
> pipe for the free wireless they're using their existing connections.
> Some libraries have better systems, i.e. I was in the San Mateo city
> library and they have a very good wireless system that probably does
> cost them a few hundred dollars a month.

which is still negligible in the grand scheme of things.