Cingular roaming nightmare

I'm in the middle of a Cingular roaming nightmare. If anyone has any
ideas how to prod Cingular out of their complacency, please let me
know.

Background: I was a reasonably happy customer of Cingular for over two
years -- not totally happy, but happy enough to realize that none of
the others were likely to be much better. I'm based in Tallahassee FL
with a National plan. I had traveled to Seattle and Los Angeles quite
a bit. Last August, Cingular gave me a new Nokia 6340i and $30 in
exchange for a 2-year contract -- presumably mostly because they are
moving to GSM and my old phone didn't support it, though surely partly
to get customers under contract before number portability arrived in
Tallahassee.

It's not a big surprise that the 6340i gave me much better service on
the west coast, where it's all GSM. Excellent service in the middle of
the office building where I'm working in LA, where previously I had no
signal at all -- usually a seven-bar signal. Excellent strong signal
everywhere in the area (just north of LAX). Good service in Seattle
when I went there for a weekend in November, in locations where I'd
previously had poor service. So I was a happy camper.

The first inkling of problems came in January, when the 6340i started
shutting itself off spontaneously. That isn't what I'm writing about
here -- I'm pretty sure that's a Nokia problem -- but that's when I
found out that in Cingular, East is East and West is West and never
the twain shall meet. Not only are the tech people in LA unfamiliar
with the 6340i, they don't touch anything TDMA. And they can't even
get into my account to set up a loaner phone. The original companies
-- Bell South Wireless and whatever the west coast part was -- are
merged in name only, not in operations.

But other than the phone problem, I continued to get good service.

So on to my current problem:

On Thursday, March 18, I was in LA, and I suddenly stopped getting
digital service. The phone would occasionally say Cingular Extend, but
could not place calls even when it showed a signal. Despite several
hours on the phone with tech support (most of it on hold playing the
extremely annoying advertising messages over and over and over and
over ad nauseum), this condition continued until I left LA on the
morning of Saturday, March 20 for a week at home. I had reached tier 2
support and had been given a roaming ticket number.

When I changed planes in Memphis, the phone worked fine. The entire
week in Tallahassee, it worked fine. I called tech support -- twice --
to check on the roaming ticket; they said it had been closed but
refused to attempt to locate any information on the action taken.
(Later experience, described below, would show that no effective
action had been taken.)

On Tuesday, March 23, I swapped the phone out (for the second time)
due to the problem of it turning itself off (up to a dozen times a
day). In retrospect, this was a mistake, because it conflated the two
problems. However, the new phone worked fine in Tallahassee. It also
worked fine in Memphis on the evening of Sunday, March 28, when I
again changed planes on my way to LA.

When I reached LA, the problem returned full force. No "Cingular"
signal, only a sometimes "Cingular Extend". I tried in a number of
locations near the airport and at my hotel a couple of miles north --
an area where the GSM signal is so strong you can float in it. I was
actually able to call my voicemail, but could not place ANY other
calls, not even to Cingular customer service. I contacted after hours
support; the level of competence I encountered is indicated by the
rep's suggestion that I walk around to find a better signal -- in an
area where you have to be in a steel and concrete bunker to avoid the
signal.

The next morning I took the phone to a Cingular store across the
street. They got the same results, the only difference being that
Cingular tech support didn't assume they were dolts. After an hour and
a half, they claimed that my phone had not received the proper
downloads -- "over air activation" -- after I swapped it out. They
sent me out to stand under a Cingular tower, claiming that there I'd
be able to receive the downloads, whereas near a Verizon tower I could
not. That evening, another rep on the phone gave me a different
location for the tower, with identical lack of results.

Tuesday morning (March 30) I called again and asked for one rep to
stay on the problem until it was fixed. The rep agreed to be my
contact. She came to the same conclusion, that my phone needed
downloads, and said that yes, getting the downloads outside my home
area was hopeless. I shipped the phone to her office in Ocean Spring
MS, where she checked it out, verified the downloads, and swore that
everything would be fine now. Due to a couple of shipping foul-ups, I
didn't get it back until yesterday, Wednesday, April 7.

And it still isn't working. Exactly the same symptoms. I'm waiting for
the rep to contact me. I've been without west coast roaming service
for a full three weeks now -- which for me at this time means I've
been without a cell phone for three weeks, since I only have the phone
for travel and am currently traveling to, duh, the west coast.

It appears that Cingular simply has no system for elevating problems
which can't be solved at the regular tech support level. My guess
would be that this is a problem with authorization in the roaming
system.

Non-destructive suggestions welcome. ;-)

Edward Reid

---

› See More: Cingular roaming nightmare

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Edward Reid) wrote:

> Non-destructive suggestions welcome. ;-)

Call their HQ and ask for the VP of Marketing. A problem like this
you need to start at the top, not the bottom.

Group: alt.cellular.cingular Date: Thu, Apr 8, 2004, 5:40pm (EST+5)
From: [email protected] (Robert=A0M.)
<<A problem like this you need to start at the top, not the bottom. >>

Which is where you are, you bottomfeeder.

It appears that Cingular simply has no system for elevating problems
which can't be solved at the regular tech support level. My guess
would be that this is a problem with authorization in the roaming
system.

Non-destructive suggestions welcome. ;-)

Edward Reid


Wow Ed, That quite an issue. Ok First let talk about the roaming thing. Cingular, Verizon, AT&T all roam on other carriers networks ( YES the mighty Verizon, about 40% of the America`s Choice network is not theirs and they still have the same problem about downloads out of your local market) to fill in holes in their coverage. Cingular has agreements with other GSM carriers, mostly AT&T and T-Mobile. As Cingular completes it build out in certain areas, they drop the roaming agreement with the other carrier. When you get Cingular extend you are getting either AT&T or T-mobile. This is most likely what happend in the area you were in. Yes getting that download is very important. The best place for you to get it is in Tallahassee FL. Tryin to get it anywhere eles just will not cut it. Also be sure you are on a National GAIT plan the gives you access to both networks with no roaming. Finally, get your etiher the Motorola V400 or the Motorola V600. Either buy it full cost from Cingular or on ebay if you can. The phone is a class 4 handset and one of the most powerful cingular carries. You can then go on a GSM only plan which is cheaper and have a really dependable phone. IT sounds like you make your living travling and your phone is your life line. BITE THE BULLET AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY YOU DID>.

What is on your display in LA when you cannot make calls? Does it show
"Cingular Extend" or "Cingular" or a blank display? Does it indicate that
you have good signal on the signal strength bars?

If it shows good signal and is on "Cingular", this means that you are on
Cingular's network and should be working.

If the display is blank, it indicates that you have been refused service on
anybody's network, including Cingular's. My guess is that if this is the
case, Cingular may have a routing problem that rejects your phone from
registering in this market. Tier 2 needs to check to see if GAIT numbers
from your local market (Tallahassee) are being routed properly from the LA
network.

If it shows "Cingular Extend" you are most likely on AT&T's network. They
may have some sort of problem that is preventing calls from setting up
correctly on their network. Cingular customer service needs to get with AT&T
and clear it up if this is the case.

My advice is to escalate this through the management ranks in your local
markets instead of HQ. The local market has more to gain from keeping you
as a satisfied customer. Send your horror story to your local sales person
and see if they can help you get it escalated. And ask for a software
upgrade to see if that clears up your power off problem.

Let us (this NG) know how things turn out.


"Edward Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm in the middle of a Cingular roaming nightmare. If anyone has any
> ideas how to prod Cingular out of their complacency, please let me
> know.
>
> Background: I was a reasonably happy customer of Cingular for over two
> years -- not totally happy, but happy enough to realize that none of
> the others were likely to be much better. I'm based in Tallahassee FL
> with a National plan. I had traveled to Seattle and Los Angeles quite
> a bit. Last August, Cingular gave me a new Nokia 6340i and $30 in
> exchange for a 2-year contract -- presumably mostly because they are
> moving to GSM and my old phone didn't support it, though surely partly
> to get customers under contract before number portability arrived in
> Tallahassee.
>
> It's not a big surprise that the 6340i gave me much better service on
> the west coast, where it's all GSM. Excellent service in the middle of
> the office building where I'm working in LA, where previously I had no
> signal at all -- usually a seven-bar signal. Excellent strong signal
> everywhere in the area (just north of LAX). Good service in Seattle
> when I went there for a weekend in November, in locations where I'd
> previously had poor service. So I was a happy camper.
>
> The first inkling of problems came in January, when the 6340i started
> shutting itself off spontaneously. That isn't what I'm writing about
> here -- I'm pretty sure that's a Nokia problem -- but that's when I
> found out that in Cingular, East is East and West is West and never
> the twain shall meet. Not only are the tech people in LA unfamiliar
> with the 6340i, they don't touch anything TDMA. And they can't even
> get into my account to set up a loaner phone. The original companies
> -- Bell South Wireless and whatever the west coast part was -- are
> merged in name only, not in operations.
>
> But other than the phone problem, I continued to get good service.
>
> So on to my current problem:
>
> On Thursday, March 18, I was in LA, and I suddenly stopped getting
> digital service. The phone would occasionally say Cingular Extend, but
> could not place calls even when it showed a signal. Despite several
> hours on the phone with tech support (most of it on hold playing the
> extremely annoying advertising messages over and over and over and
> over ad nauseum), this condition continued until I left LA on the
> morning of Saturday, March 20 for a week at home. I had reached tier 2
> support and had been given a roaming ticket number.
>
> When I changed planes in Memphis, the phone worked fine. The entire
> week in Tallahassee, it worked fine. I called tech support -- twice --
> to check on the roaming ticket; they said it had been closed but
> refused to attempt to locate any information on the action taken.
> (Later experience, described below, would show that no effective
> action had been taken.)
>
> On Tuesday, March 23, I swapped the phone out (for the second time)
> due to the problem of it turning itself off (up to a dozen times a
> day). In retrospect, this was a mistake, because it conflated the two
> problems. However, the new phone worked fine in Tallahassee. It also
> worked fine in Memphis on the evening of Sunday, March 28, when I
> again changed planes on my way to LA.
>
> When I reached LA, the problem returned full force. No "Cingular"
> signal, only a sometimes "Cingular Extend". I tried in a number of
> locations near the airport and at my hotel a couple of miles north --
> an area where the GSM signal is so strong you can float in it. I was
> actually able to call my voicemail, but could not place ANY other
> calls, not even to Cingular customer service. I contacted after hours
> support; the level of competence I encountered is indicated by the
> rep's suggestion that I walk around to find a better signal -- in an
> area where you have to be in a steel and concrete bunker to avoid the
> signal.
>
> The next morning I took the phone to a Cingular store across the
> street. They got the same results, the only difference being that
> Cingular tech support didn't assume they were dolts. After an hour and
> a half, they claimed that my phone had not received the proper
> downloads -- "over air activation" -- after I swapped it out. They
> sent me out to stand under a Cingular tower, claiming that there I'd
> be able to receive the downloads, whereas near a Verizon tower I could
> not. That evening, another rep on the phone gave me a different
> location for the tower, with identical lack of results.
>
> Tuesday morning (March 30) I called again and asked for one rep to
> stay on the problem until it was fixed. The rep agreed to be my
> contact. She came to the same conclusion, that my phone needed
> downloads, and said that yes, getting the downloads outside my home
> area was hopeless. I shipped the phone to her office in Ocean Spring
> MS, where she checked it out, verified the downloads, and swore that
> everything would be fine now. Due to a couple of shipping foul-ups, I
> didn't get it back until yesterday, Wednesday, April 7.
>
> And it still isn't working. Exactly the same symptoms. I'm waiting for
> the rep to contact me. I've been without west coast roaming service
> for a full three weeks now -- which for me at this time means I've
> been without a cell phone for three weeks, since I only have the phone
> for travel and am currently traveling to, duh, the west coast.
>
> It appears that Cingular simply has no system for elevating problems
> which can't be solved at the regular tech support level. My guess
> would be that this is a problem with authorization in the roaming
> system.
>
> Non-destructive suggestions welcome. ;-)
>
> Edward Reid

I agree cledus

Update:

Friday I took the suggestion of calling the corporate offices. Got someone
in the president's office who found someone in tech support to work
directly with me. The tech support person spent three hours on the phone
with me before giving up and filing another roaming ticket. I doubt that I
got any more technical expertise to bear on the problem, but it does seem
to be getting more attention, including someone who actually stuck with it
until he totally ran out of ideas.

The tech support person was rather POed that the previous roaming ticket
had been closed just because I had left the area, even though the problem
wasn't fixed.

Cingular claims that I should be able to roam with TDMA on a Verizon tower
a few blocks away. And in fact when I try to place a call, Cingular gets
the notification that I attempted to use that Verizon tower -- tech support
can see that. But I get a busy signal for all calls -- which sounds to me
like it's being passed to Cingular but the Cingular system in the area
doesn't recognize my phone, or refuses it service. This is consistent with
the fact that the phone refuses to pick up the Cingular tower that's a
couple of miles away (even when prodded with *3370# OK, which supposedly
forces the phone to search for a GSM signal). Yet I *can* receive calls on
the TDMA signal (though not reliably), presumably because an incoming call
gets validated in my home region and doesn't require additional validation
in LA.

This all fits with what cledus says about Cingular not properly routing
information from TLH to LAX. It also fits with the typical corporate
attitude of "we don't have any reports of this problem so we won't take
your report". How many Cingular customers from Tallahassee (or the
southeast) have tried to roam in LA (or California) in the past 3 weeks who
know that they should be getting a Cingular GSM signal and know that they
aren't? If I'd just arrived here after March 18, I'd have just said "damned
crappy service out here". It's only because I was here both before and
after that it's crystal clear that something broke ... oh scuse me, I'm
from the south, sumpin done tore up.

Yes, the phone says Cingular Extend (when it gets a signal at all). I have
not seen "Cingular" on the phone in LA since this problem started on March
18.

Of course, Cingular doesn't believe that people use phones on weekends, so
they aren't working on the problem over the weekend. I'm supposed to call
back Monday to check the status of the new roaming ticket.

The local Tallahassee office doesn't appear to give a FF whether they keep
my business. When I was recently in the one local office with tech support
capability due to phone problems (turning itself off), the office manager
gave me his card and said to call him if I had any problems. At the
beginning of last week, I sent him an email and left a message for him at
the office. Haven't heard from him. So much for that. I could try the sales
office which is closest to my house, but they've made it pretty clear that
"we do sales, not tech support". I get the feeling I'd have better luck
getting help from Wal-Mart. One would think that, with all the cellular
companies offering indistinguishable plans, that they would at least try to
distinguish themselves on service ... but in my experience, one would be
incorrect. ;-)

Wireless Guy: why do you say the Motorola V4/600 would be an improvement? I
don't know much about phones. Currently I have Cingular GSM and analog
roaming -- at least that's the way I understand it. The Nokia 6340i is
suppose to handle, if I understand correctly, GSM, TDMA, and analog. I'm
not willing to go GSM-only yet -- I get out into way too many outlying
areas where even picking analog is iffy. Back at Christmas I drove from
Tallahassee to Gainesville and was on Extend almost the entire way, except
when I lost signal entirely. And it's not clear to me what kind of signal
I'm getting in Tallahassee -- Cingular says that it won't be completely
changed over to GSM in Florida until sometime this summer (I think). One of
the really annoying things about the 6340i is that it doesn't tell you
exactly what kind of signal you are using, just this Cingular / Cingular
Extend black hole.

Thanks for all the replies,

Edward

You will never receive a TDMA call on Verizon equipment as they are CDMA
like Sprint (99.9% sure you are getting TDMA from ATTWS). You might get an
AMPS (analog) signal, but Verizon is known not to put AMPS in all of the
CDMA tower locations. You could see exactly what is going on if you added
'field test' mode to your 6340i-you could see the actual channel the phone
is picking up, signal strength, and the SID or CID(for GSM). Google search
'6340i field test' for much more info and how to get into it.

Chris

"Edward Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Update:
>
> Friday I took the suggestion of calling the corporate offices. Got someone
> in the president's office who found someone in tech support to work
> directly with me. The tech support person spent three hours on the phone
> with me before giving up and filing another roaming ticket. I doubt that I
> got any more technical expertise to bear on the problem, but it does seem
> to be getting more attention, including someone who actually stuck with it
> until he totally ran out of ideas.
>
> The tech support person was rather POed that the previous roaming ticket
> had been closed just because I had left the area, even though the problem
> wasn't fixed.
>
> Cingular claims that I should be able to roam with TDMA on a Verizon tower
> a few blocks away. And in fact when I try to place a call, Cingular gets
> the notification that I attempted to use that Verizon tower -- tech
support
> can see that. But I get a busy signal for all calls -- which sounds to me
> like it's being passed to Cingular but the Cingular system in the area
> doesn't recognize my phone, or refuses it service. This is consistent with
> the fact that the phone refuses to pick up the Cingular tower that's a
> couple of miles away (even when prodded with *3370# OK, which supposedly
> forces the phone to search for a GSM signal). Yet I *can* receive calls on
> the TDMA signal (though not reliably), presumably because an incoming call
> gets validated in my home region and doesn't require additional validation
> in LA.
>
> This all fits with what cledus says about Cingular not properly routing
> information from TLH to LAX. It also fits with the typical corporate
> attitude of "we don't have any reports of this problem so we won't take
> your report". How many Cingular customers from Tallahassee (or the
> southeast) have tried to roam in LA (or California) in the past 3 weeks
who
> know that they should be getting a Cingular GSM signal and know that they
> aren't? If I'd just arrived here after March 18, I'd have just said
"damned
> crappy service out here". It's only because I was here both before and
> after that it's crystal clear that something broke ... oh scuse me, I'm
> from the south, sumpin done tore up.
>
> Yes, the phone says Cingular Extend (when it gets a signal at all). I have
> not seen "Cingular" on the phone in LA since this problem started on March
> 18.
>
> Of course, Cingular doesn't believe that people use phones on weekends, so
> they aren't working on the problem over the weekend. I'm supposed to call
> back Monday to check the status of the new roaming ticket.
>
> The local Tallahassee office doesn't appear to give a FF whether they keep
> my business. When I was recently in the one local office with tech support
> capability due to phone problems (turning itself off), the office manager
> gave me his card and said to call him if I had any problems. At the
> beginning of last week, I sent him an email and left a message for him at
> the office. Haven't heard from him. So much for that. I could try the
sales
> office which is closest to my house, but they've made it pretty clear that
> "we do sales, not tech support". I get the feeling I'd have better luck
> getting help from Wal-Mart. One would think that, with all the cellular
> companies offering indistinguishable plans, that they would at least try
to
> distinguish themselves on service ... but in my experience, one would be
> incorrect. ;-)
>
> Wireless Guy: why do you say the Motorola V4/600 would be an improvement?
I
> don't know much about phones. Currently I have Cingular GSM and analog
> roaming -- at least that's the way I understand it. The Nokia 6340i is
> suppose to handle, if I understand correctly, GSM, TDMA, and analog. I'm
> not willing to go GSM-only yet -- I get out into way too many outlying
> areas where even picking analog is iffy. Back at Christmas I drove from
> Tallahassee to Gainesville and was on Extend almost the entire way, except
> when I lost signal entirely. And it's not clear to me what kind of signal
> I'm getting in Tallahassee -- Cingular says that it won't be completely
> changed over to GSM in Florida until sometime this summer (I think). One
of
> the really annoying things about the 6340i is that it doesn't tell you
> exactly what kind of signal you are using, just this Cingular / Cingular
> Extend black hole.
>
> Thanks for all the replies,
>
> Edward
>

>Cingular claims that I should be able to roam with TDMA on a Verizon tower
>a few blocks away.

No way possible - just goes to show that they are trying to push you off on
something else.

Cingular's TDMA and Verizon's CDMA isn't compatible and roaming on Verizon's
tower is absolutly impossible.



--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

OK, it's obvious that I was confused, and the "other" tower is a Verizon
AirTouch AMPS tower. At this point I'm not sure how much of the confusion
came from Cingular reps and how much I generated myself. Probably a little
of the latter but more of the former.

I spent three hours on the phone Friday with a Cingular tech support
person, who then gave up and filed another roaming ticket. I called this
morning -- of course, no progress, they don't believe that they need to
pursue problems over the weekend -- and told them that if someone wasn't
working full time on the problem, I wanted out of my contract. The rep
promised to call me back. We'll see. If there's no indication of progress
or serious effort by tomorrow, I'll try to get them to waive the ETF and
let me take my phone number to AT&T. (The latter of course would be easy if
I could wait another month, but Tallahassee isn't a top 100 market.)

OK, I took a break in the middle of writing this and went across the
street, and got a very nice young lady in the Cingular store to try my SIM
card in her phone and vice versa. The problem followed the SIM. Her fancier
phone said ... I forget the exact message (which I'm sure was generated
from within the phone anyway), something like "registration rejected".

Tried field test. Can't make out most of the hieroglyphics of course. I
tried setting cell barr discard but that made no difference. Page 01-01
shows

CH=617 (different each time I power it on)
RxL=-79 (have seen -63 in another location)
TxPwr=xxx (I assume because it failed to register)
CCCH on the bottom line

Do any of the other numbers matter for this? Is -79 to -63 db a strong or
weak signal?

Edward

[email protected]pamfree (John S.) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >Cingular claims that I should be able to roam with TDMA on a Verizon tower
> >a few blocks away.
>
> No way possible - just goes to show that they are trying to push you off on
> something else.
>
> Cingular's TDMA and Verizon's CDMA isn't compatible and roaming on Verizon's
> tower is absolutly impossible.

Yes and no- roaming on Verizon's tower in TDMA mode is impossible,
obviously, but the GAIT phones can also roam in analog mode, provided
that Verizon's SID isn't forbidden in the phone's IRDB. I've roamed
on Verizon using a Cingular TDMA phone in the past (in analog mode of
course.)

>Is -79 to -63 db a strong or
>weak signal?

Well, sitting right under the tower about a -60 is all you aregoing to get with
the number decreasing as you move away from the tower (-70, -80, etc....).


--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

>Yes and no- roaming on Verizon's tower in TDMA mode is impossible,
>obviously, but the GAIT phones can also roam in analog mode, provided
>that Verizon's SID isn't forbidden in the phone's IRDB. I've roamed
>on Verizon using a Cingular TDMA phone in the past (in analog mode of
>course.)

The OP didn't say that he had a GAIT phone. What you say of course is corret IF
-
The TDMA phone goes into AMPS mode
He has a GAIT phone that can go into AMPS mode


--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

Ed, going to AT&T is not really going to solve the problem. They are in the same boat also. CInguar and AWS(AT&T) are in the process of opening up more of the local and national network to allow both customer to see more of each Cell Sites, not just the roaming sites. The Motorola V400 / V600 are type 4 handsets , while the Nokia 6340I is a type 5. Higher the type more power it puts out. Since you have a Sim you sould able to still Use a V400/600 and keep your Nokia as a Back-up. I`m going to check with some of my back office friends in Cingular Network to see if there is any issue with that. That way you can test both. Also if you spend the money on the V400 full price or Since the V600 with bluetooth coming out in a couple days. You should find a couple of uses on ebay or on this site williing to sell their loved v400 so they can buy the V600.

>The Motorola V400
>/ V600 are type 4 handsets , while the Nokia 6340I is a type 5. Higher
>the type more power it puts out.

HUH????

By law they are limited to .6 watts in AMPS mode. Practically, they are held
down by the system to much less, usually.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net