Is Cingular Likely To Phase Out TDMA?

> The only added feature that TDMA control channels give
> you is voicemail alert, and some other advanced features.

> The only thing the users will notice is
> the voicemail indicator will no longer work.

I am in error.
The AMPS control channel can control voicemail indicators on the phone.
Duuu............

---

› See More: Is Cingular Likely To Phase Out TDMA?

N9WOS wrote:
<snip>
> The primary concern for them will be, how many people are using it,
> and are those people paying in more, than it takes to run the system.
> As long as the people are paying cingular more than it cost to run the
> system,
> then they will leave it alone.
> Once the balance goes negative, then it's time to shut it down.

For the most part I agree, but however, it could also be a profit issue.
The basic idea of economics is that resources will flow to thier
highest valued function, and if GSM users outweigh TDMA users in terms
of revenue per section of spectrum, it would make sense that TDMA has to
be dumped for GSM. I do however, figure that TDMA will be alive and
well until the AMPS sunset date (2007 or 2008?). A lot can happen in
two to three years (how much GSM did Cingular or AT&T Wireless overlay
and thier roaming partners overlay from March 2003 to today?) It would
not be unreasonable that they can wean all users of TDMA in favor of GSM
by the sunset date.

TH

Here is how this will play out.
you cannot purchase a TDMA phone, I beleive, only GSM
so, as the number of TDMA customers drops, and it will quickly,

I predict 2 years for TDMA.

Chip


Bill Radio wrote:
> Pete,
> While the future is not bright for TDMA, there are at least 5 Million
> customer still using it, mostly from AT&T. Right now, the last thing
> Cingular wants to do is blow off any customers. Eventually that number will
> drop below a million and they'll be able to afford some kind of incentive to
> get the rest to switch.
>
> In the meantime, the TDMA network is alive and well, even among roaming
> partners. I've noticed it takes weeks to get a cell site fixed, but
> Cingular isn't gonna rock the boat anytime soon.
>
> Bill Radio
> Click for Western U.S. Wireless Reviews at:
> http://www.mountainwireless.com
>
>
> "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I've got an old TDMA plan with a decent price.
>>
>>If Cingular ever phased out TDMA, I'd think they'd probably switch plans
>
> like
>
>>mine over to GSM rather than lose them to other carriers.
>>
>>But is there any realistic chance of TDMA ever going away?
>>--
>>PeteCresswell
>
>
>

> For the most part I agree, but however, it could also be a profit issue.
> The basic idea of economics is that resources will flow to thier highest
> valued function, and if GSM users outweigh TDMA users in terms of revenue
> per section of spectrum, it would make sense that TDMA has to be dumped
> for GSM.

That will depend on network crowding.

In a big city where bandwidth is thin.
All AMPS will be cut on the sunset sate.
And all TDMA will be cut sometime before,
or after that time.

But in the majority of areas where the have more
than enough spectrum to run everything.
You won't have any resource flow,
because the high value users don't need it.

Around here, they run AMPS, TDMA and GSM,
all on the 800Mhz band with room to spare.
Never have a fast busy signal (network overload) on any mode.
And we still have extra PCS spectrum to throw in if needed.

"Ralph Blach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here is how this will play out.
> you cannot purchase a TDMA phone, I beleive, only GSM
> so, as the number of TDMA customers drops, and it will quickly,
>
> I predict 2 years for TDMA.
>
> Chip
>
>
> Bill Radio wrote:
> > Pete,
> > While the future is not bright for TDMA, there are at least 5 Million
> > customer still using it, mostly from AT&T. Right now, the last thing
> > Cingular wants to do is blow off any customers. Eventually that number
will
> > drop below a million and they'll be able to afford some kind of
incentive to
> > get the rest to switch.
> >
> > In the meantime, the TDMA network is alive and well, even among roaming
> > partners. I've noticed it takes weeks to get a cell site fixed, but
> > Cingular isn't gonna rock the boat anytime soon.
> >
> > Bill Radio
> > Click for Western U.S. Wireless Reviews at:
> > http://www.mountainwireless.com
> >
> >
> > "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>I've got an old TDMA plan with a decent price.
> >>
> >>If Cingular ever phased out TDMA, I'd think they'd probably switch plans
> >
> > like
> >
> >>mine over to GSM rather than lose them to other carriers.
> >>
> >>But is there any realistic chance of TDMA ever going away?
> >>--
> >>PeteCresswell
> >
> >
> >


I'm probably going to switch to Verizon when my ATTWS contract is up in
July. All I want is a phone that works--I could care less about all those
features and data.

I never did like Cingular. Hell, I left Cellular One to go to ATTWS.

Per N9WOS:
>Never have a fast busy signal

You sound like you *really* know what you're talking about.

Can you speculate on the cause of this:

Somebody calls my cell phone on a land line. They hear 2-3 ring tones, but my
cell phone hasn't begun to ring yet. Then my cell phone rings about 1.5 times
and it's over...they get shunted to voicemail.

Used to be I got an honest 4 rings on my cell phone. Sometimes it seems like I
still do (at least I get to answer it after 3....)

But more-and-more, it's the 1.5 ring scenario and I don't have time to deploy
the phone and answer. Last few months, I'd say it's been that way most of the
time.

Some kind of latency in some computer's processing of the call?
--
PeteCresswell

> You sound like you *really* know what you're talking about.

I got you fooled huuuu......... :-)

> Can you speculate on the cause of this:

I can make a wild a## guess. :-O

> Somebody calls my cell phone on a land line. They hear 2-3 ring tones,
> but my
> cell phone hasn't begun to ring yet. Then my cell phone rings about 1.5
> times
> and it's over...they get shunted to voicemail.
>
> Used to be I got an honest 4 rings on my cell phone. Sometimes it seems
> like I
> still do (at least I get to answer it after 3....)
>
> But more-and-more, it's the 1.5 ring scenario and I don't have time to
> deploy
> the phone and answer. Last few months, I'd say it's been that way most
> of the
> time.
>
> Some kind of latency in some computer's processing of the call?

When someone calls you, the system has to find what cell tower you are on.
And then get a response from your phone (with possible retries),
then move it to a channel, then initiate the ringing.

That process can take half a second, to several seconds.
When I call one of the cell phones I have from a landline,
I notice a specific behavior.
When it's the first time calling in a long time,
I will sometimes get a long pause after I dial the number,
up to three or so seconds,
After it has the attention of the cell phone on the other end,
Then it will start ringing on the caller's line in about the
same time it will start ringing the cell phone.

If I recall quickly after hang-up, then the time from last number dialed
to the start of the ringing on both end is usually under a second.

If the cell phone had just been turned off, then the caller will hear a long
silence
(usually about five seconds)
It checks with the last cell site that the phone was registered at,
and tries to page the phone several times, while waiting for a response.
Once it gives up, then you will hear the recorded message stating
that the caller is not available at this time.
(I do not have voicemail turned on.)
The caller never hears a ring.

If the phone hasn't been on for a long time,
then it usually goes to directly to the recording.

The caller should only hear ringing after the system
has already made contact with your cell phone.

So the question is,
Is the system messing up and starting the ringing right after the caller
calls?
That would mean that it racks up a few rings while the system is finding
your phone.
Or is the phone bugging out on you,
and pausing a little bit before the ringer on the phone starts ringing,
even though it has already acknowledged the ring request from the system.

Try calling the phone from a landline and make note of any possible
giveaway..
If there is no pause between dialing the last number,
and hearing the ringing start on the landline phone, before going to
voicemail
Even when you have just shut off the cell phone, then it's the system.

If you have a pause before you hear ringing on the landline,
and/or the display on the cell phone lights up at the same time
as you hear the ringing on the landline phone,
But the ringing on the cell phone starts a few seconds later,
then it's the cell phone.

Let me clarify.

> Try calling the phone from a landline and make note of any possible
> giveaway..
> If there is no pause between dialing the last number,
> and hearing the ringing start on the landline phone, before going to
> voicemail,
> Even when you have just shut off the cell phone, then it's the system.

Shut off the cell phone.

Call the cell phone number with a landline phone.

You should hear a long pause, then it will go to voicemail.
Or it may be a short pause, before going to voicemail.
That is the way it should work.

If you hear ringing before it goes to voicemail,
then something is wrong with the system.

> If you have a pause before you hear ringing on the landline,
> and/or the display on the cell phone lights up at the same time
> as you hear the ringing on the landline phone,
> But the ringing on the cell phone starts a few seconds later,
> then it's the cell phone.


With the phone on, and open (if it's a flip phone)
Wait long enough for the display light to go off.
Call the phone with a landline phone.

You may have a moderate pause if the phone hasn't
been called in a long time, or has just been turned on.
You should see the display light come on the same time that it starts
ringing.
And the ringing starts in the landline phone at the exact same time.
That is the way it should work.

If you have a good pause and the ringing starts in the landline,
then another good pause then the ringing starts in the cell phone,
then it's probably a cell phone problem.

If you call and (with or without pause) the cell phone display light lights
up,
the exact same time you hear ringing in the landline phone,
then after another pause, then you hear ringing from the cell phone,
then it's a cell phone problem.

"N9WOS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> One of the first cuts I think they should make is TDMA control channels.
> Right now, there is a full set of TDMA control channels,
> and a full set of AMPS control channels.
> The TDMA control channels is mostly redundant,
> considering the existence of the AMPS control channels.
> The only added feature that TDMA control channels give
> you is voicemail alert, and some other advanced features.
> AMPS control channels are capable of handling SMS,
> but not all TDMA phones are not exactly compatible
> with SMS over an AMPS control channel.
>
> The primary operational functionality won't be impaired
> in any way by cutting TDMA control channels.
>
> The only thing the users will notice is
> the voicemail indicator will no longer work.
> And some phones may no longer be able to receive SMS,
> Depending on the phone that they own.
>
> And the analog/digital indicator will show analog
> even when you are in a digital area.
> That is because the phone is camped out on an AMPS control channel.
> But when you make a call, the AMPS control channel
> will direct you to a TDMA voice channel, and time slot.
> And the actual call will be carried out in a digital format.
> Direct management of TDMA traffic, and channels has been
> a capability of AMPS control channels since the D-AMPS days.
> And all TDMA phones are compatible with that style of network
>
> So you would basically have a full set of amps control channels,
> and a set of TDMA, and AMPS voice channels on the 800Mhz side.
>
> The next step would be to employ dual mode base stations.
> Stations that can handle TDMA, and AMPS on the same channel,
> depending on demand.
> It surprises me why they have not utilized them already.
> The technology has been around for years..
>
> That would allow you to integrate TDMA and AMPS voice channels
> into a single universal spectrum block and save over 1Mhz of spectrum.
> You would have the control channels (AMPS)
> And you would have the voice channels (TDMA/AMPS)
> You would have four or so channels per sector that is available.
> If you called with an analog phone,
> you would be assigned one of those four channels.
> If you called with a TDMA phone,
> you would be assigned one of those four channels,
> but the call would be in digital mode.
> Or, if a channel was already being used for digital calls,
> but still had one or two time slots open,
> then you would be assigned to the already operating digital channel.
> And that is where I would keep it until I shut the TDMA/ AMPS system down.
> It would take no more bandwidth than TDMA by it's self,
> and it would still support roaming and emergency calls by CDMA users.
>
> Even if all four channels were taken up by digital users.
> When a CDMA/AMPS user dialed 911,
> the system could dump the one to three users on one of the
> TDMA voice channels to allow the emergency call to go through.
>
> And a non emergency call would just get a fast busy
> until one of the voice channels cleared up.
>
> On 1900Mhz, there is nothing much you can do to compact anything,
> beside cutting down voice channels as TDMA usage goes down.
>
> But with all the spectrum they now have after they bought AT&T,
> I would say that the extra spectrum usage they are getting from running
> GSM, TDMA/ and AMPS systems is not their highest concern
>
> The primary concern for them will be, how many people are using it,
> and are those people paying in more, than it takes to run the system.
> As long as the people are paying cingular more than it cost to run the
> system,
> then they will leave it alone.
> Once the balance goes negative, then it's time to shut it down.
>
That's all very interesting. Are you saying that if a TDMA phone is
camping on an AMPS control channel, it will use no more standby
power than if it were camping on a digital control channel? IOW,
will there be no battery life issues with doing what you suggest?
Thanks.

> Are you saying that if a TDMA phone is
> camping on an AMPS control channel, it will use no more standby
> power than if it were camping on a digital control channel? IOW,
> will there be no battery life issues with doing what you suggest?

Shhhhhh.... Don't expose the one problem with my plan.

Yes, that will be a problem.
Battery life on standby will suck.
For the people that just keep a phone around for emergencies,
(Turned off, and out of the way)
that wouldn't be a problem.
But for other people, it would be a problem.

I didn't say my plan was perfect.

If AMPS is sitll alive with perhaps only 1000 customers using it, then
why would they go after TDMA with MILLIONS of us on it still?

I predict at least 10 more years for TDMA

N9WOS wrote:

> > Short answer? Yes, it's damn likely. The only real question is when.
>
>>Since no wireless carrier is under any statutory obligation to continue
>>TDMA service, I expect AMPS to outlive TDMA. In urban areas, AMPS is a
>>mere skeleton of what it was just two years ago.
>
>
> TDMA will exist as long as AMPS does.
> TDMA is so interpretable with AMPS that it is
> unlikely for them to end TDMA before amps.
>

Interoperable or not, I've been told that Cingular has already
eliminated TDMA in some ultra-high traffic areas because they needed the
channels for GSM capacity, and they're maintaining just enough AMPS to
satisfy legal requirements. Also, Cingular isn't growing AMPS nor TDMA
at all anywhere - only GSM. Assuming that to be true, it appears TDMA
has already been phased out in select areas. I have no idea if
Cingular's new blue network changes any of this.


[....]


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

> Interoperable or not, I've been told that Cingular has already
> eliminated TDMA in some ultra-high traffic areas because they needed the
> channels for GSM capacity, and they're maintaining just enough AMPS to
> satisfy legal requirements. Also, Cingular isn't growing AMPS nor TDMA
> at all anywhere - only GSM. Assuming that to be true, it appears TDMA
> has already been phased out in select areas. I have no idea if
> Cingular's new blue network changes any of this.

Actually, I can verify that Cingular has elinimated some TDMA coverage.
In Western Florida, for example, Cingular did not have enough
bandwidth to run both TDMA and GSM. I think the official switchover
date was 25 June 2004. During the transition, Cingular users were
camped out on the AT&T Wirless network. During June and July, Cingular
was *requiring* customers to get a new GSM handset (not sure if you got
to keep the TDMA one or not). IIRC, you were offered a GSM phone
similar in features to the TDMA phone free of charge, and could upgrade
based on a standard price scale (where your comparable phone was the
base price).

It wouldn't surprise me if other PCS markets had similar situations.

TH

> Interoperable or not, I've been told that Cingular has already
> eliminated TDMA in some ultra-high traffic areas because they needed the
> channels for GSM capacity,

Me and a few other people have thrashed that subject
to death a long time ago on this usenet newsgroup.

Quote........Re: How Long Until All GSM/No TDMA?...........
..................Saturday, May 08, 2004 6:24 PM.............
..................by N9WOS............
...................................................................................................
If you look at the cingular network map, and where they have 800 Mhz
coverage, and PCS only coverage, you will get the idea.

The major places they only have PCS coverage to cover major population areas
is.
Shreveport Louisiana.
Montgomery Alabama.
Columbus Georgia
Tampa, Sarasota, and ft. Myers Florida.
Hattiesburg, Biloxi, and Gulfport Mississippi.

Most of the other places have both 800 and PCS coverage.
Plenty of room to operate TDMA and GSM.
But those few places are weak spots.

Notice the wording.
"applicable within certain areas in FL, LA, MS, AL and GA"
If it was state laws, then it would be worded.
"Applicable within the states of FL, LA, MS, AL and GA"

Heck, they have had 850 GSM fully deployed in Indiana for a year,
But there has been no talk about dropping TDMA at all.

[Snipquote]

Another note, on the prepaid TDMA coverage map,
in the west side of Florida, there is a moderate amount of
TDMA PCS only coverage that has vanished from the map.
(The places where they switched to GSM only.)
.....................end quote.........................................


> and they're maintaining just enough AMPS to satisfy legal requirements.

Cingular never provide AMPS in the areas where they cut TDMA.
The TDMA they cut was in areas where they only had 1900Mhz coverage.

> Also, Cingular isn't growing AMPS nor TDMA at all anywhere - only GSM.

Correct.

> Assuming that to be true, it appears TDMA has already been phased out in
> select areas. I have no idea if Cingular's new blue network changes any
> of this.

That is one of the primary reasons they wanted AT&T.
The extra spectrum would let them avoid doing anything like that again.
The only reason they had to shut off TDMA and go to GSM
was lack of extra spectrum to provide both system simultaneously.