the "Family SURPRISE plan"

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
> 15:20:25 -0600,
> "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>
>>>>> I expect them not to enable chargeable data service without informed
>>>>> consent.
>>>>>
>>>>Which is given at the time of activation.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>It is- check your service agreement. You agree to pay all valid charges.
>>It is not the Company's responsibility to hold your hand if you are too
>>ignorant to research the product brofre buying.
>
> What part of "informed consent" do you not understand?

What part of "check your service agreement" do you not understand?

>
>>Name three other industries with a customer base of the same size that is
>>burdened with that task. You won't, because you can't.
>
> It's a fundamental principle in all medical and care fields.

Apples to celery comparison- if it is your contention that the advising of
fees and charges is a life or death situation, please return to reality.

Why don't you compare practices with other technology industries. How about
computer sales, ISP's, landline phones, etc...... Cellular carriers operate
using the same set of rules as these industries and run exactly the same
potential for additional charges. I guess I will assume that cellular
customers are much less intelligent than consumers of these other products
if they need such special attention.

---

› See More: the "Family SURPRISE plan"

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:17:57 -0600,
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
>> 15:20:25 -0600,
>> "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>>>> I expect them not to enable chargeable data service without informed
>>>>>> consent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Which is given at the time of activation.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>It is- check your service agreement. You agree to pay all valid charges.
>>>It is not the Company's responsibility to hold your hand if you are too
>>>ignorant to research the product brofre buying.
>>
>> What part of "informed consent" do you not understand?
>
>What part of "check your service agreement" do you not understand?

I'm not the one with the understanding problem.

<https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>

DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available for
each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan, feature
or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your Service...
[emphasis added]

Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
"selected" by the subscriber.

Case closed.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> I'm not the one with the understanding problem.

We'll see about that.

>
> <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>
>
> DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
> 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available
> for
> each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan,
> feature
> or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your Service...
> [emphasis added]
>
> Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
> "selected" by the subscriber.

Sure it is, as it is mentioned as a feature of every price plan that
includes it.

From the TOS:

http://onlinestorez.cingular.com/cel...terms=postpaid

"For non-GPRS/EDGE/UMTS (GSM Circuit- Switched Data) connections, usage
includes all time spent connected. Airtime and other measured usage are
billed in full-minute increments and rounded up to the next full minute
increment at the end of each call for billing purposes. "

>
> Case closed.
>

Yes it is, but not as you expected it to be.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
19:59:03 -0600, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> I'm not the one with the understanding problem.
>
>We'll see about that.
>
>> <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>
>>
>> DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
>> 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available
>> for
>> each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan,
>> feature
>> or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your Service...
>> [emphasis added]
>>
>> Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
>> "selected" by the subscriber.
>
>Sure it is, as it is mentioned as a feature of every price plan that
>includes it.
>
>From the TOS:
>
>http://onlinestorez.cingular.com/cel...terms=postpaid
>
>"For non-GPRS/EDGE/UMTS (GSM Circuit- Switched Data) connections, usage
>includes all time spent connected. Airtime and other measured usage are
>billed in full-minute increments and rounded up to the next full minute
>increment at the end of each call for billing purposes. "

Meaningless.

>> Case closed.
>
>Yes it is, but not as you expected it to be.

In your dreams.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
> 19:59:03 -0600, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>From the TOS:
>>
>>http://onlinestorez.cingular.com/cel...terms=postpaid
>>
>>"For non-GPRS/EDGE/UMTS (GSM Circuit- Switched Data) connections, usage
>>includes all time spent connected. Airtime and other measured usage are
>>billed in full-minute increments and rounded up to the next full minute
>>increment at the end of each call for billing purposes. "
>
> Meaningless.

And yet you do not say why. Another one word response with no detail behind
it. The child has stuck his tongue out again. And as far as it being
meaningless, you are indeed incorrect, unless you want to whip one of expert
legal opinions on us.

It is much more pertinent than what you posted, as downloading ringtones is
an advertised feature on most Cingular phones and requires a data connection
to function, as outlined in the instuctional material that comes with the
phone. The actual language used on a couple of the phones is "Downloadable
supertone/music ring tones." The fact that language outlining the data
charges appears in the service agreements is far from meaningless- implied
consent is given at the time of activation.

So, to recap- the phone is advertised as capable of downloading ringtones as
a main feature (not a hidden feature, but frontpage material). The need for
a data connection to download ringtones is contained in the instructional
material. The structure of data downloading charges is clearly contained in
the service agreement. In order for there not be to be informed consent,
the customer has to ignore a great deal of information. The company has
supplied more than enough information for a consumer to make an informed
decision.

>
>>> Case closed.
>>
>>Yes it is, but not as you expected it to be.
>
> In your dreams.

>
The only dream I want you in is one where you finally admit error. I'm
smart enough to realize that it is the only time it would ever happen, as
your pompous ego won't allow it in real life.

John Navas Wrote:
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In [email protected] on Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:17:57
> -0600,
> "Scott" [email protected] wrote:
>
> "John Navas" [email protected] wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> In [email protected] on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
> 15:20:25 -0600,
> "Scott" [email protected] wrote:
>
> "John Navas" [email protected] wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> I expect them not to enable chargeable data service without informed
> consent.
>
> Which is given at the time of activation.
>
> Nope.
>
> It is- check your service agreement. You agree to pay all valid
> charges.
> It is not the Company's responsibility to hold your hand if you are
> too
> ignorant to research the product brofre buying.
>
> What part of "informed consent" do you not understand?
>
> What part of "check your service agreement" do you not understand?
>
> I'm not the one with the understanding problem.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/82zcm
>
> DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
> 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available
> for
> each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan,
> feature
> or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your
> Service...
> [emphasis added]
>
> Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
> "selected" by the subscriber.
>
> Case closed.
>
> --
> Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
> John Navas http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular
mMode pay as you go is a part of every calling plan sold by Cingular.
You have the option of replacing that part of the plan with a feature
that has a certain amount of data at a set price. It is the same with
text messaging.there is a pay as you go rate of $0.10/message that is
automatically turned on. If you want everything that could cause you to
be charged funds for without having to agree to charge the following
list would be turned off.
Media Net, Text messaging, call forwarding, 3 way calling, voice
mail(while roaming overseas), international calling.

I just realised a point the everyone missed: The source of the ringtone
had no idea what, if any, cost would be incurred for data transfer by
the receiving phone. Most ringtone providors are not privy to what plan
and features a customer has. They have an agreement with Cingular that
they can report purchases and Cingular will collect for them. This is a
convenience to the customer so that all charges related to the phone are
in one place. One can also purchase a ringtone with a credit card if one
wants. The ringtone providor had no idea if the subscriber is on a Media
net unlimited plan or a pay as you go plan so how would they calculate
the charge? The only way to fix this would be to give rate plan and
feature information to every Media Net content providor. Do you really
wnat them to do that? I see privacy concerns popping up all over.


--
movak

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:26:23 -0600,
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>>
>> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
>> 19:59:03 -0600, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>From the TOS:
>>>
>>>http://onlinestorez.cingular.com/cel...terms=postpaid
>>>
>>>"For non-GPRS/EDGE/UMTS (GSM Circuit- Switched Data) connections, usage
>>>includes all time spent connected. Airtime and other measured usage are
>>>billed in full-minute increments and rounded up to the next full minute
>>>increment at the end of each call for billing purposes. "
>>
>> Meaningless.
>
>And yet you do not say why. ...

Actually, I have, over and over, and posted the definitive language that
supports my position. Once again, for the last time:

<https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>

DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available for
each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan, feature
or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your Service...
[emphasis added]

Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
"selected" by the subscriber.

Case closed. You are of course free to keep making illogical and baseless
claims, but I am done. Have a nice day.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:01:02 +0000, movak
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Navas Wrote:

>> <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>
>>
>> DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
>> 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available for
>> each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan, feature
>> or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your Service...
>> [emphasis added]
>>
>> Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
>> "selected" by the subscriber.

>mMode pay as you go is a part of every calling plan sold by Cingular.

mMode is actually a service of the old ATTWS that is no longer offered by
Cingular. Pay-As-You-Go MEdia Net is the only such thing now from Cingular
for new subscribers.

>You have the option of replacing that part of the plan with a feature
>that has a certain amount of data at a set price.

It's actually a *separate* *data* feature, not part of any *voice* Rate Plan,
that is turned on by default, without being selected by the customer, and
without being properly disclosed. Worse, thanks to dedicated phone buttons
and obscure menu selections, it's all too easy to trigger it by accident or
out of ignorance and run up substantial hidden charges.

>It is the same with
>text messaging.there is a pay as you go rate of $0.10/message that is
>automatically turned on.

SMS Messaging is much less of an issue because you have to explicitly send
messages to get charged, and the charges tend to be much smaller -- there's a
big difference between $0.20 of SMS messages and $20 of data.

>If you want everything that could cause you to
>be charged funds for without having to agree to charge the following
>list would be turned off.
>Media Net, Text messaging, call forwarding, 3 way calling, voice
>mail(while roaming overseas), international calling.

Call Forwarding, like SMS Messaging, takes explicit action.
International calling and roaming are turned off by default.

>I just realised a point the everyone missed: The source of the ringtone
>had no idea what, if any, cost would be incurred for data transfer by
>the receiving phone.

In fact that's been the point from the beginning.

>Most ringtone providors are not privy to what plan
>and features a customer has.

In many (most?) such cases the seller of the ringtone is Cingular, not a third
party.

>They have an agreement with Cingular that
>they can report purchases and Cingular will collect for them. This is a
>convenience to the customer so that all charges related to the phone are
>in one place.

It's actually a big profit generator for Cingular. It's only a convenience
for the customer if it's something that the customer wants and has expressly
authorized.

>One can also purchase a ringtone with a credit card if one
>wants.

As it should be.

>The ringtone providor had no idea if the subscriber is on a Media
>net unlimited plan or a pay as you go plan so how would they calculate
>the charge? The only way to fix this would be to give rate plan and
>feature information to every Media Net content providor. Do you really
>wnat them to do that? I see privacy concerns popping up all over.

Again, this particular issue regards Cingular, not some third party.
But regardless:

* Cingular shouldn't be acting as a billing agent for third parties unless
expressly authorized by the subscriber. This is cell phone service, not a
credit card.

* Cingular shouldn't enable chargeable data service unless expressly
authorized by the customer(1) and/or should get confirmation from the customer
before the phone goes online(2).

(1) Like other consumer contracts, it would be a simple matter to have an
initial box on the subscriber agreement for [ ] Pay-As-You-Go MEdia Net (with
appropriate explanatory text).

(2) Much like the rules for pay-per-call services, it would also be a simple
matter for Pay-As-You-Go MEdia Net to be programmed with a charge warning and
confirmation screen (where no charges would apply, even for that screen, if
Cancel is pressed).

Not making reasonable efforts to ensure that the customer really does want to
incur such charges is preying on the customer.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
> 21:26:23 -0600,
> "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>>>
>>> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 16 Oct 2005
>>> 19:59:03 -0600, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>From the TOS:
>>>>
>>>>http://onlinestorez.cingular.com/cel...terms=postpaid
>>>>
>>>>"For non-GPRS/EDGE/UMTS (GSM Circuit- Switched Data) connections, usage
>>>>includes all time spent connected. Airtime and other measured usage are
>>>>billed in full-minute increments and rounded up to the next full minute
>>>>increment at the end of each call for billing purposes. "
>>>
>>> Meaningless.
>>
>>And yet you do not say why. ...
>
> Actually, I have, over and over, and posted the definitive language that
> supports my position. Once again, for the last time:
>
> <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>
>
> DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
> 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available
> for
> each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan,
> feature
> or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your Service...
> [emphasis added]

Emphasize all you want. The phone is advertised as capable of downloading
ringtones. There is a whole section of the website dedicated to it. It is
mentioned in the service agreement and instructional material for the phone.
You buy a phone that downloads ringtones and it is SELECTED BY YOU.

>
> Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
> "selected" by the subscriber.

Long distance is enabled by default, it's not "selected" by the subscriber,
either. The ability to dial 1-900 is enabled by default, it's not
"selected" by the subscriber, either. So, what's your point?

>
> Case closed. You are of course free to keep making illogical and baseless
> claims, but I am done. Have a nice day.
>
You are never done. You are simply an internet version of herpes- you come
along long enough to create havoc and then disappear, but only for a while.

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:01:02 +0000, movak
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>John Navas Wrote:
>
>>> <https://onlinecare.cingular.com/my-account/legal/service-agreement.jsp>
>>>
>>> DESCRIPTION OF SERVICES
>>> 1. Rate Plans. The price, features and options of the Service available
>>> for
>>> each Identifier on your Account depends on the calling or data plan,
>>> feature
>>> or promotion SELECTED BY YOU when you activated or changed your
>>> Service...
>>> [emphasis added]
>>>
>>> Since the Pay-As-You-Go Data feature is enabled by default, it's not
>>> "selected" by the subscriber.
>
>>mMode pay as you go is a part of every calling plan sold by Cingular.
>
> mMode is actually a service of the old ATTWS that is no longer offered by
> Cingular. Pay-As-You-Go MEdia Net is the only such thing now from
> Cingular
> for new subscribers.
>
>>You have the option of replacing that part of the plan with a feature
>>that has a certain amount of data at a set price.
>
> It's actually a *separate* *data* feature, not part of any *voice* Rate
> Plan,
> that is turned on by default, without being selected by the customer, and
> without being properly disclosed. Worse, thanks to dedicated phone
> buttons
> and obscure menu selections, it's all too easy to trigger it by accident
> or
> out of ignorance and run up substantial hidden charges.
>
>>It is the same with
>>text messaging.there is a pay as you go rate of $0.10/message that is
>>automatically turned on.
>
> SMS Messaging is much less of an issue because you have to explicitly send
> messages to get charged, and the charges tend to be much smaller --
> there's a
> big difference between $0.20 of SMS messages and $20 of data.
>
>>If you want everything that could cause you to
>>be charged funds for without having to agree to charge the following
>>list would be turned off.
>>Media Net, Text messaging, call forwarding, 3 way calling, voice
>>mail(while roaming overseas), international calling.
>
> Call Forwarding, like SMS Messaging, takes explicit action.
> International calling and roaming are turned off by default.
>
>>I just realised a point the everyone missed: The source of the ringtone
>>had no idea what, if any, cost would be incurred for data transfer by
>>the receiving phone.
>
> In fact that's been the point from the beginning.
>
>>Most ringtone providors are not privy to what plan
>>and features a customer has.
>
> In many (most?) such cases the seller of the ringtone is Cingular, not a
> third
> party.

Proof?

>
>>They have an agreement with Cingular that
>>they can report purchases and Cingular will collect for them. This is a
>>convenience to the customer so that all charges related to the phone are
>>in one place.
>
> It's actually a big profit generator for Cingular. It's only a
> convenience
> for the customer if it's something that the customer wants and has
> expressly
> authorized.

Proof?

>
>>One can also purchase a ringtone with a credit card if one
>>wants.
>
> As it should be.
>
>>The ringtone providor had no idea if the subscriber is on a Media
>>net unlimited plan or a pay as you go plan so how would they calculate
>>the charge? The only way to fix this would be to give rate plan and
>>feature information to every Media Net content providor. Do you really
>>wnat them to do that? I see privacy concerns popping up all over.
>
> Again, this particular issue regards Cingular, not some third party.
> But regardless:
>
> * Cingular shouldn't be acting as a billing agent for third parties unless
> expressly authorized by the subscriber. This is cell phone service, not a
> credit card.

Tell that to the landlines- they frequently bill for third parties. It is a
phone service, not a credit card.

>
> * Cingular shouldn't enable chargeable data service unless expressly
> authorized by the customer(1) and/or should get confirmation from the
> customer
> before the phone goes online(2).
>
> (1) Like other consumer contracts, it would be a simple matter to have an
> initial box on the subscriber agreement for [ ] Pay-As-You-Go MEdia Net
> (with
> appropriate explanatory text).

Yeah- consumers have shown that they pay such close attention to the areas
that they mark......NOT!

>
> (2) Much like the rules for pay-per-call services, it would also be a
> simple
> matter for Pay-As-You-Go MEdia Net to be programmed with a charge warning
> and
> confirmation screen (where no charges would apply, even for that screen,
> if
> Cancel is pressed).

I finally figured it out- Navas the genius got burned for some unexpected
charges. That is the only reason he would be so anti-Cingular.

>
> Not making reasonable efforts to ensure that the customer really does want
> to
> incur such charges is preying on the customer.

Would that be the same as not making a reasonable effort to ensure that you
have correct information before posting it? That would have you preying on
Usenet users on a regualr basis.
I'm so glad that you aren't proposing regualtions to protect people from
their own stupidity. Oh wait....you are.


>

movak wrote:
> What should have happened and this issue would never have come up.
>
> Daughter: Hey Dad, I found this really cool option on my phone. I can
> download ringtones and change how my phone sounds. The site says it
> will cost $1.99.


Yeah right. What color is the sky in your world. In the realty the kid
would be watching MTV and 50 Cent comes on and says download my tones
from TonzFrek my texting 4233 to 3234 and you will get the tones back.
Then in TINY LITTLE letters at the bottom of the screen it says that
each tone is .99 and they will send you one a day for the next year.