Adios, Cingular!

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 00:41:05 -0500, Isaiah Beard
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Cliff wrote:
>
>> The reality of the situation is that TDMA is old technology and maintaining
>> 2 different technologies NATIONALLY is expensive.
>
>You're absolutely right, but how is that the fault of the end user?

It's not. Just because something isn't a user's fault doesn't mean a
company should never have to pass these costs onto its users.

>At the time, Cingular touted TDMA is being THE standard, and the BEST
>standard. Now, GSM is THE standard, and the BEST standard.... until
>the second half of this year in which case UMTS will be THE standard,
>and then in 2007 it's going to be HSDPA.

Just like Windows v3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, etc...

HSDPA, UMTS and EDGE are all AFAIK backwards compatibile. IOW, no one
is going to force users into purchasing new equipment if an EDGE user
is happy and doesn't want/need the benefits of HSDPA.

>Yes, its expensive to maintain multiple standards, but it's expensive to
>paying end users who have been loyal for years to be forced into
>upgrading to new phones and more expensive plans. And if Cingular's
>management had done its research earlier, they might not be in as a
>serious a situation as they are in now.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda.

>So when the hell is the Cingular going to settle on a stable path that
>doesn't require end users to hop technology every year?

The move from AMPS to D-AMPS to GSM has hardly been on a yearly basis.

And people haven't been forced off of D-AMPS with Cingular/ATTWS. They
are always free to find unlocked phones. It's just that Cingular
doesn't carry them anymore. At some point, Cingular just decided that
isn't not worth it to carry ancient phones for grandpa and grandmas
that are living in the dark ages.

BTW, I did see you in front of the HQ of Western Union the other day
picketing them because they discontinued telegram service*, forcing
you to use telephones, faxes, or email now. :^O

>And why must an end user be forced to sign onto new contracts, upgrade
>their equipment and take on more expensive calling plans every time
>Cingular changes its mind on what technology they want the network to
>run on this week?

I've been on Cingular's (was Pacbell initially) GSM network for at
least 5 years and never been forced to sign a new contract of upgrade
my equipment/plan. I have upgraded phones, plans and signed new
contracts along the way, but it's because I wanted to.

>Cingular is the only company right now that has these issues. T-Mobile
>and its historical derivatives have had GSM longer than Cingular's been
>in existence as a company, and people using old VoiceStream/Omnipoint
>handsets from 1995 can still use them today. Even the CDMA carriers
>appear to be handling AMPS upgrades more smoothly, and CDMA has
>maintained backward compatibility even as the network evolves.

FWIW, I think Cingular/Pacbell should have gone with CDMA/AMPS from
the start. The only thing GSM has going for it is SIM cards, wider
selection of phones, and ability to roam around the world on it. For
a lot of users in the US, the last ability doesn't mean much, if
anything.

* <http://www.livescience.com/technology/060131_western_union.html>

---

› See More: Adios, Cingular!

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <NwAHf.1734$Lr.1577@trnddc01>, "Jeremy" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> But I would like a wireless service that isn't
>> set up to drop my calls, just so I will switch into something more
>> lucrative
>> for the carrier, and Sprint stands head and shoulders above Cingular in
>> that
>> regard.
>
> Unfortunately, that appears to be a location-by-location situation.
> Around here, Sprint coverage sucks rocks. I can't imagine why anyone
> around here has Sprint.
>

I agree that one's location might determine which carrier to use, but in my
particular circumstance, I had perfectly fine service until Cingular took
over the TDMA network and began fiddling with it to cut back on service. In
other words, the dropped calls, failure of the handset to remain on when
roaming and the long wait for service when the phone was first turned on
were all DELIBERATE. Posters have been reporting similar incidents all
across the country.

I believe that this was Cingular's way of coercing TDMA users to "upgrade,"
rather than to just offer to give them new GSM phones and let them keep
their existing terms. I'll bet that, when they finally do pull the plug on
TDMA officially, they'll make that offer to the remaining customers that are
still on TDMA--IF any of them can bear having to deal with diminished
service that long. My daughter has a Cingular GSM plan and her reception is
just fine. The towers are in place, it is just Cingular's strategy of
slowly tightening the noose on ATTWS' TDMA accounts that is the issue.

When I first began seeing posters describing this slow cutback, I thought it
was all in their heads, but now that I've experienced it first-hand, I know
better.

>
> It's not. Just because something isn't a user's fault doesn't mean a
> company should never have to pass these costs onto its users.
>

That is not the point at all.

Cingular has NOT pulled the plug on TDMA. What they have done is to slowly
and deliberately cut back on service, making the service so unreliable as to
be virtually unusable, and then they try to coerce customers that complain
into signing new contracts, pay activation fees, etc.

Sorry, Cingular, but I didn't take the bait! My only regret is that I
didn't bail out when this all started, about a year ago.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:23:03 GMT, "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Cingular has NOT pulled the plug on TDMA. What they have done is to slowly
>and deliberately cut back on service, making the service so unreliable as to
>be virtually unusable

Correct. They no longer wish to spend any more money than is
absolutely necessary into technology that they are deprecating.

They don't see a future in TDMA and want people off it ASAP.

>and then they try to coerce customers that complain into signing new
>contracts, pay activation fees, etc.

These TDMA people are NOT on contract as you said. Cingular is
basically saying we are phasing the service out that you are currently
on. You are not on contract, so we are not under any obligation to
maintain it. In fact, we are trying to deprecate it ASAP.

If it doesn't work for you, we suggest you go with our new technology
GSM. An entry-level GSM phone can be obtained for little money.

Cingular's "coerce...activation fees, etc." is Cingular's attempt to
come up with a Cingular solution to the complainer's problem. If I
understand correctly, your problem with Cingular's solution is that it
is not cheaper or free. Cheap/free is one of the reasons why ATTWS
had so many problems. Someone has to pay the infrastructure and GSM
outbuilding. Cingular did not move to GSM just because they felt they
wanted to. They went to GSM because they felt TDMA was a dead-end and
they had to.

You are right though -- migration from TDMA to GSM will cost most
users something, although the cost can be made minimal.

Originally Posted by Jeremy

>
> It's not. Just because something isn't a user's fault doesn't mean a
> company should never have to pass these costs onto its users.
>

That is not the point at all.

Cingular has NOT pulled the plug on TDMA. What they have done is to slowly
and deliberately cut back on service, making the service so unreliable as to
be virtually unusable, and then they try to coerce customers that complain
into signing new contracts, pay activation fees, etc.

Sorry, Cingular, but I didn't take the bait! My only regret is that I
didn't bail out when this all started, about a year ago.

This is generally how it works with all technology. Accept it and move on...

"Cellairis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Jeremy Wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > It's not. Just because something isn't a user's fault doesn't mean
>> a
>> > company should never have to pass these costs onto its users.
>> >
>>
>> That is not the point at all.
>>
>> Cingular has NOT pulled the plug on TDMA. What they have done is to
>> slowly
>> and deliberately cut back on service, making the service so unreliable
>> as to
>> be virtually unusable, and then they try to coerce customers that
>> complain
>> into signing new contracts, pay activation fees, etc.
>>
>> Sorry, Cingular, but I didn't take the bait! My only regret is that I
>> didn't bail out when this all started, about a year ago.
>
> This is generally how it works with all technology. Accept it and move
> on...
>


YOU can accept it, if you so choose.

I have moved on. To Sprint.

"Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:XjPHf.11387$CZ4.8315@trnddc05...
>
> "Cellairis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Jeremy Wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > It's not. Just because something isn't a user's fault doesn't mean
>>> a
>>> > company should never have to pass these costs onto its users.
>>> >
>>>
>>> That is not the point at all.
>>>
>>> Cingular has NOT pulled the plug on TDMA. What they have done is to
>>> slowly
>>> and deliberately cut back on service, making the service so unreliable
>>> as to
>>> be virtually unusable, and then they try to coerce customers that
>>> complain
>>> into signing new contracts, pay activation fees, etc.
>>>
>>> Sorry, Cingular, but I didn't take the bait! My only regret is that I
>>> didn't bail out when this all started, about a year ago.
>>
>> This is generally how it works with all technology. Accept it and move
>> on...
>>
>
>
> YOU can accept it, if you so choose.
>
> I have moved on. To Sprint.

Seems like you're still here, please move to the Sprint group and irritate
them now.
...
bamp

Jeremy wrote:

>
> Are GSM carriers the only ones affected, or will CDMA carriers also be
> migrating?

Uhm, they ARE migrating, to CDMA 1XEVDO. However, EVDO is backward
compatible with the old IS-95 handsets, as well as the interim 1xRTT
devices. Likewise, EVDO Rev. A will maintain that compatibility, and
presumable EVDV (if it comes out) and CDMA 3X will *still* be backward
compatible.

The difference is that older phones can't use the newer features. But
at least old equipment isn't shut out from future use.

> What about Europe? Are all GSM users doomed?

The migration will probably ultimately take as long as AMPS has had in
the US (some carriers STILL aren't off AMPS, and have no plans to be).
So GSM will likely be in use for a long time.

The question is, will CIngualr be able to handle multiple standards.



--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

Anonymous wrote:

>> At the time, Cingular touted TDMA is being THE standard, and the BEST
>> standard. Now, GSM is THE standard, and the BEST standard.... until
>> the second half of this year in which case UMTS will be THE standard,
>> and then in 2007 it's going to be HSDPA.
>
> Just like Windows v3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, etc...

The problem is that Windows 3.11, 95 and 98 don't forcibly shut down
your computer if you're still using those operating systems. Some old
machines are still running quite nicely on those old OSes. Old TDMA
phones? Not so much!

> HSDPA, UMTS and EDGE are all AFAIK backwards compatibile.

And you know wrong.


>
>> Yes, its expensive to maintain multiple standards, but it's expensive to
>> paying end users who have been loyal for years to be forced into
>> upgrading to new phones and more expensive plans. And if Cingular's
>> management had done its research earlier, they might not be in as a
>> serious a situation as they are in now.
>
> Woulda, shoulda, coulda.

Translation: you had nothing good to counter with, so you drummed up a
cliche to make yourself sound...clever?

> At some point, Cingular just decided that
> isn't not worth it to carry ancient phones for grandpa and grandmas
> that are living in the dark ages.

And to reward customers for their loyalty through the years, and not
forcing Cingular to pay subsidies on new phones and just basically
collect profit from these folks for such a long time, Cingular rewards
them by forcing them to more expensive contracts offering fewer minutes
allowances. That's what I'm getting at. If Cingular wants to upgrade
it's network, fine. But forcing customers to outlay cash for new
equipment AND pay higher monthly fees is asking a bit much.

> BTW, I did see you in front of the HQ of Western Union the other day
> picketing them because they discontinued telegram service*, forcing
> you to use telephones, faxes, or email now. :^O

I've never used a telegram. Likewise, I'm happy now NOT to use Cingular.


>> And why must an end user be forced to sign onto new contracts, upgrade
>> their equipment and take on more expensive calling plans every time
>> Cingular changes its mind on what technology they want the network to
>> run on this week?
>
> I've been on Cingular's (was Pacbell initially) GSM network for at
> least 5 years and never been forced to sign a new contract of upgrade
> my equipment/plan.

Hooray for you! Former TDMA users on the other hand, get the shaft.



--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

Anonymous wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:23:03 GMT, "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Cingular has NOT pulled the plug on TDMA. What they have done is to slowly
>> and deliberately cut back on service, making the service so unreliable as to
>> be virtually unusable
>
> Correct. They no longer wish to spend any more money than is
> absolutely necessary into technology that they are deprecating.


Sorry, but there's a monumental difference between not outlaying
additional capital for a deprecated network, and deliberately expending
capital and manpower to actively degrade that network's functionality.



--
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Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

bamp wrote:

>> I have moved on. To Sprint.
>
> Seems like you're still here, please move to the Sprint group and irritate
> them now.
> ..

Ah, textbook fanboy response.


--
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Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:20:13 -0500, Isaiah Beard
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Anonymous wrote:
>
>> Correct. They no longer wish to spend any more money than is
>> absolutely necessary into technology that they are deprecating.
>
>Sorry, but there's a monumental difference between not outlaying
>additional capital for a deprecated network, and deliberately expending
>capital and manpower to actively degrade that network's functionality.

I don't know if Cingular is actually doing the last thing you said,
but if they are, perhaps your problem is because TDMA towers are being
converted to GSM. They might need to do this to improve/expand their
GSM service.

And perhaps this is being done because it is cheaper to take a TDMA
tower and convert it to GSM-only than to create new GSM towers from
scratch or overlay GSM onto a TDMA tower which translates into what I
wrote above.

Kind of like tearing down the telegraph lines to put in telephone
lines. Or tearing down the copper lines to put in fiber optic lines a
la Verizon FioS.

(Regardless, I am sure that unfortunately some bean counter or MBA,
rather than someone with a technical background, made that decision.)

Welcome to 2006. I guess the only way you're going there is kicking
and screaming. Heheheheh.

ill bet you that... sprint sucks... i have never met anyone who has sprint that didnt have a problem...

Originally Posted by Your Name Here

How much you wanna bet He's back to Cingular in under 6 months?

Any Takers?



Jeremy wrote:
> I phoned them today to cancel the remaining 2 lines on my account. I told
> the little snot of a rep that my reason for leaving was because their
> service had become virtually unusable, with dropped calls, no service and
> phones that automatically shut off upon leaving the home rate area.
>
> She noted that I had been a customer since 1997, and that TDMA was allegedly
> "required by law" to be shut down in 2007. I told her that I knew of no
> such "law," and she became even more snotty with me from that point on.
>
> She sounded like she was reading a script. Cingular was willing to give me
> camera phones and "upgrade" my service to GSM, at no charge but with a
> monthly rate that was $30 higher than I was paying on TDMA. My 7 PM N/W
> would revert back to 9 PM--a loss of 2 hours every weekday. And my "free
> night/weekend minutes" would go from "unlimited" to 5000 minutes per month.
>
> "No, thank you," I replied.
>
> She then went on to say that I would owe them one additional month, because
> they billed me in arrears, not in advance. My current phones would shut off
> at midnight on the date of the new billing cycle. Any voicemail not
> retrieved would be deleted, yada, yada, yada.
>
> If I wanted to return after 45 days, I would be subject to a new credit
> check and an activation fee, yada, yada, yada.
>
> "No, thank you," I repeated.
>
> She signed off with the usual "Thank you for calling Cingular," and that was
> it.
>
> I'll pay their damned final bill, even though I got only 10 days' service
> from them, and I'll be relieved to be out of their clutches. My new service
> with Sprint will cost me $40.00 per month LESS than I would have paid
> Cingular for their "Upgraded Service" plan that the rep offered me.
>
> As for her allegation that they were "required" by some undisclosed "law" to
> discontinue TDMA service, I leave it to posters on this NG to decide if it
> has any credibility. But one thing seems apparent--anyone still on a TDMA
> plan is living on borrowed time.
>
> Any other TDMA customers that are not keen on seeing Cingular "raise the
> bar" on their monthly payment amounts would be well-advised to start looking
> for replacement service. I do not know if the deal that Sprint gave me was
> only for Sprint Business Long Distance customers, or was available to
> anyone, but people looking for favorable rates might want to give them a
> call before capitulating to Cingular's offer of what they call an "Upgrade."
>
> As for me, I am now going to shut off my remaining two Ericsson T19LX
> phones, clear out my voicemail box and have a toast to my good fortune at
> finding a replacement for Cingular and their arm-twisting tactics. Really,
> this feels good!
>
> It just so happens that Sprint PCS recently installed a tower atop an
> apartment building just two blocks from my home. I consistently get 5 bars
> of signal strength. And my wife, who had become used to her calls dropping
> as she drove to and from work every day, called me yesterday and we talked
> on Sprint's network for the duration of her trip--with no dropped calls, no
> low signal strength, no inability to find a signal when turning the phone
> on--just rock-solid audio. So, for me, leaving Cingular seems to have been
> a good thing. I won't miss them.
>
> Be well!
>
>

"Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Anonymous wrote:
>
>>> At the time, Cingular touted TDMA is being THE standard, and the BEST
>>> standard. Now, GSM is THE standard, and the BEST standard.... until the
>>> second half of this year in which case UMTS will be THE standard, and
>>> then in 2007 it's going to be HSDPA.
>>
>> Just like Windows v3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, etc...
>
> The problem is that Windows 3.11, 95 and 98 don't forcibly shut down your
> computer if you're still using those operating systems. Some old machines
> are still running quite nicely on those old OSes. Old TDMA phones? Not
> so much!
>
>> HSDPA, UMTS and EDGE are all AFAIK backwards compatibile.
>
> And you know wrong.
>
>
>>
>>> Yes, its expensive to maintain multiple standards, but it's expensive to
>>> paying end users who have been loyal for years to be forced into
>>> upgrading to new phones and more expensive plans. And if Cingular's
>>> management had done its research earlier, they might not be in as a
>>> serious a situation as they are in now.
>>
>> Woulda, shoulda, coulda.
>
> Translation: you had nothing good to counter with, so you drummed up a
> cliche to make yourself sound...clever?
>
> > At some point, Cingular just decided that
>> isn't not worth it to carry ancient phones for grandpa and grandmas
>> that are living in the dark ages.
>
> And to reward customers for their loyalty through the years, and not
> forcing Cingular to pay subsidies on new phones and just basically collect
> profit from these folks for such a long time, Cingular rewards them by
> forcing them to more expensive contracts offering fewer minutes
> allowances. That's what I'm getting at. If Cingular wants to upgrade
> it's network, fine. But forcing customers to outlay cash for new
> equipment AND pay higher monthly fees is asking a bit much.
>
>> BTW, I did see you in front of the HQ of Western Union the other day
>> picketing them because they discontinued telegram service*, forcing
>> you to use telephones, faxes, or email now. :^O
>
> I've never used a telegram. Likewise, I'm happy now NOT to use Cingular.


Then what are you doing here, other than bothering people?
...
bamp


>
>
>>> And why must an end user be forced to sign onto new contracts, upgrade
>>> their equipment and take on more expensive calling plans every time
>>> Cingular changes its mind on what technology they want the network to
>>> run on this week?
>>
>> I've been on Cingular's (was Pacbell initially) GSM network for at
>> least 5 years and never been forced to sign a new contract of upgrade
>> my equipment/plan.
>
> Hooray for you! Former TDMA users on the other hand, get the shaft.

How long has Cingular been saying TDMA is a dying technology??
...
bamp



>
>
>
> --
> E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
> Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

Somewhere around Sat, 11 Feb 2006 18:27:19 GMT, while reading
alt.cellular.cingular, I think I thought I saw this post from "Jeremy"
<[email protected]>:

>
>"Marty Fried" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...

>> . . .
>> It could be any number of things. What if they signed some type of
>> agreement when they took over that specified that they had to shut it
>> down by a certain date? They could say they are required by law to do
>> it, because they agreed to it earlier. They could say they are bound
>> by law to follow this agreement. We don't really know the exact
>> wording of whatever was said, anyway, so this seems very possible.
>>
>> It's even possible that they had to agree to this, and had no choice
>> if they wanted to go ahead with the deal.
>>
>> There could be other similar things that would lead to the same
>> situation.

>
>Sorry, friend, but this was no misinterpretation. The rep tried to justify
>Cingular's lousy technical performance by suggesting that TDMA had to go
>away BY LAW.
>
>She really wanted to deflect attention away from my comments to her that
>Cingular was deliberately cutting back on service in markets all across the
>country, making my continuing on with TDMA unbearable.
>
>I compared it to "death by a thousand cuts." She responded that they were
>complying with the "law." No "law" requires them to slowly cut back on
>signal availability. No "law" requires them to decline to offer ATTWS
>subscribers a new plan with the same perks as they had received from ATTWS.
>No "law" requires Cingular to jeopardize their customers' safety by
>DELIBERATELY making it less likely that they can get a signal and call for
>emergency personnel if they need to.
>
>Numerous posters here have made similar complaints, and that seems proof
>enough that this is not coincidental, but deliberate. I never had any
>problems until Cingular took over operation of the network.
>
>Their tactics speak volumes about how they perceive their customers.
>
Obviously, you missed my point entirely. But I'm not insisting I'm right,
just saying that "by Law" doesn't necessarily mean a direct statute saying
they must do this. If I sign a contract for something, then legally (by
law) I am bound to do it, but there's no law saying "Marty must do this
thing".

I'm not surprised you have problems with customer service, and I wouldn't be
surprised to see you complaining in the future in Sprint's forum (well,
actually I would, since I don't plan to ever read that forum).

Personally, I have always had Cingular agents go out of their way to help me
in whatever way they can. They can't always do it, but they try and they
are always friendly. And I can't find any company that's any cheaper for me
limited needs (3 phones in a family plan).

Recently, I called to say I was planning to leave so I could get new phones
cheaper (2 free Razr phones from a company store in Chinatown). The agent
wasn't able to match that, but she gave me a free month's service, no
upgrade fees, 3 free months of media net service to try out, and a bucket of
free rollover minutes if I wanted to upgrade my plan, since I'd lose all but
one month's worth. Turned out that I could buy the phones for $100 each and
still save money over the free Razrs. She let me buy them online, and
offered to call me back to finish, and even said she'd try my landline
number first to save me from using my cellular minutes, but could reverse it
if she had to call the cell phone.

Maybe she didn't give me that much, but it was hardly the anti-consumer
conspiracy that many seem to think they have.

Anyway, I'm sorry you feel betrayed. I felt somewhat the same from AT&T
wireless when I had them. The agent I talked to there was totally uncaring
that my phone would not work in my house, and not only wouldn't give me a
new one (after a few years of the old one), but said if I tried to cancel a
line and then add one to get a new phone, they'd find out and charge me.
After I switched to Cingular and canceled, they told me they would have
given me a newer phone.

--
Marty - public.forums (at) gmail (dot) com
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...
well, I have others." - Groucho Marx