Cingular dropping more customers that they sold service to, due to50% policy

I agree with you.

I guess when it comes to a monopoly, the laws of supply and demand really
doesn't always apply anymore. :-)

Obviously the PR is bad, constantly changing and creating new policies that
from the customer standpoint, many are unfair. Playing games with rebates,
online vs offline (old school pick up the phone) promotions, less than
honest customer service, I means, its all stupid when you think about it.
Just look at what John is doing. Its all part of the strategy, the new
mindset. The majority of companies simply can't afford to do business with
this "in your face, take it or leave it. You don't like it? Then Go away."
mentality.

So why does it happen?

Because they can, they have power to do this today, and IMV until the dems
are back in power, it probably isn't going to change much until then.

---


"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sam wrote:
>
> > One point is clear, profitable or not, if you consume more resources
than
> > has been subsidized for your level as a customer, they won't mind if
you go
>
> The whole problem is that the resources are essentially unlimited at
> this time. Losing two million customers, even $30 per month customers,
> means losing $180 million dollars in quarterly revenue, but the expense
> of servicing those two million low-usage customers is limited to the
> incremental cost of their billing and customer support costs. They don't
> automatically get to add two million high revenue customers to replace
> the ones that left. The fixed overhead doesn't go down because these two
> million customers disappear, the overhead is simply distributed among
> fewer customers.

---

› See More: Cingular dropping more customers that they sold service to, due to50% policy

Sam wrote:
> I agree with you.
>
> I guess when it comes to a monopoly, the laws of supply and demand really
> doesn't always apply anymore. :-)
>
> Obviously the PR is bad, constantly changing and creating new policies that
> from the customer standpoint, many are unfair. Playing games with rebates,
> online vs offline (old school pick up the phone) promotions, less than
> honest customer service, I means, its all stupid when you think about it.
> Just look at what John is doing. Its all part of the strategy, the new
> mindset. The majority of companies simply can't afford to do business with
> this "in your face, take it or leave it. You don't like it? Then Go away."
> mentality.
>
> So why does it happen?
>
> Because they can, they have power to do this today, and IMV until the dems
> are back in power, it probably isn't going to change much until then.

The problem is that even with a good Democratic president, i.e. a Bill
Clinton type minus the BJs, it will take decades to undo all the damage
that the Republicans have done, not only to the economy, competitive
environment, FCC, but to foreign policy as well.

"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:44d23e2f$0$96169

> The problem is that even with a good Democratic president, i.e. a Bill
> Clinton type minus the BJs, it will take decades to undo all the damage
> that the Republicans have done, not only to the economy, competitive
> environment, FCC, but to foreign policy as well.

No argument there. The long term damages has been done. Just consider,
this little electronic exchange has probably been automatically sensed and
marked for anti-american analysis. :-)

I'm in the telecommunications market, mail/data hosting/distribution
software to be more specific, and it has been obvious to see how the CELL
phone has opened up so many ethical issues that were basically engineering
taboo and "don't you dare" practices. You are tracked with the phone. They
upload **** to your phone,, etc.

ok now, I guess, but what happens when the PC comes to the phone full swing.
Today, you have control of stuff being send to you on te PC. Whats going
to happen for the PC/PHONE? Is the Cingulars going to stop the practice? or
do things that gets around it?

The genies out the bag, no doubt, along these lines.

In short, unsolicated P2P is the golden egg future market. There are some
laws that need to be rewritten to make it happen, but wide across the board
industry resistance stop this UCC UCITA provison from being adopted. But
little by little these barriers are being broken anyway, in the name of
automation, "Live" communuications and auto=update security patches. But
the real goal is software and service licensing. As long as I can control
the clients with my server, its all good. :-)

Check out UCITA if you having yet and see what the communications industry
is trying to do. :-) Highlights:

- "Repo Man" concept. Ability to ZAP/Stop your usage of software/hardware
due to softare licensing, pirating, etc. They literally used and want
the same legal rights that banks have today to go into your property and
repossess a car.

- Make "I AGREE" button legally binding (it isn't today across all states).

- Make digital signatures legally binding. It isn't today. Only one
country (Nepal of all places) as legalized it and thats on an
experimental basis.

- Reduce Liabilities.

and a bunch of other computer/softare consumer legal rights issues.

The first one is big one. If you think about the CELL phone is the only
device today that allows to this happen. :-)

---

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 11:19:26 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
wrote in <[email protected]>:

>The problem is that even with a good Democratic president, i.e. a Bill
>Clinton type minus the BJs, it will take decades to undo all the damage
>that the Republicans have done, not only to the economy, competitive
>environment, FCC, but to foreign policy as well.

Sad but true.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

SMS wrote:
>
> Scott wrote:
>
> > So- why is Cingular the only one that has this supposed problem?
>
> For one thing, the low revenue customers for Cingular are mostly on
> TDMA, a network that they are trying to get everyone off of. Unlike
> Sprint and Verizon, they have a stick that forces their older customers
> to actually do something rather than sit back and enjoy a low-priced
> plan forever.

That's a gamble which Cingular made and may have bet their survival on.
If it turns out that TDMA customers are more profitable, they will leave
in droves when they lose coverage in fringe areas like resorts, on their
yachts, etc.

> Let's face it, of the 4.6 million TDMA customers, what percentage do you
> think they will be able to retain on a higher cost GSM plan? They've
> already indicated that they KNOW that they're going to lose a lot of
> them, but probably they'll keep well over 50% of them.

Higher cost? There's a new surcharge for TDMA service. When I spoke to
the folks at the phone store about switching to GSM, it was a straight
across switch. No plan change, just buy a new phone.

The most profitable customers might be the ones who got suckered into
the latest technology phones, with ring tones, designer colors, GSM,
etc. I question whether its a sound business plan to depend on your most
gullible customers for the bulk of your revenue. There are only so many
'kewl' phone colors that you can sell them before they realize that they
have been taken.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Faust, die Jung.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

> Higher cost? There's a new surcharge for TDMA service. When I spoke to
> the folks at the phone store about switching to GSM, it was a straight
> across switch. No plan change, just buy a new phone.

There are a lot of TDMA subscribers on very low cost plans, that
Cingular will not match on GSM. I.e., I've had very low monthly cost
TDMA plans from AT&T, including one that had NO monthly fee, but that
cost 35 cents per minute. No way Cingular would keep such plans on GSM.

> The most profitable customers might be the ones who got suckered into
> the latest technology phones, with ring tones, designer colors, GSM,
> etc. I question whether its a sound business plan to depend on your most
> gullible customers for the bulk of your revenue.

Ha, I often wonder the exact same thing. Sooner or later everyone gets
tired of new ringtones, uploading bad photos, etc. Data was to be the
killer-app, but ubiquitous free 802.11 is killing that for the casual user.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:01:25 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

>SMS wrote:
>>
>> Scott wrote:

>> For one thing, the low revenue customers for Cingular are mostly on
>> TDMA, a network that they are trying to get everyone off of. Unlike
>> Sprint and Verizon, they have a stick that forces their older customers
>> to actually do something rather than sit back and enjoy a low-priced
>> plan forever.
>
>That's a gamble which Cingular made and may have bet their survival on.
>If it turns out that TDMA customers are more profitable, they will leave
>in droves when they lose coverage in fringe areas like resorts, on their
>yachts, etc.

Cingular undoubtedly knows whether they are profitable or not.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:23:59 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
wrote in <[email protected]>:

>Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>
>> Higher cost? There's a new surcharge for TDMA service. When I spoke to
>> the folks at the phone store about switching to GSM, it was a straight
>> across switch. No plan change, just buy a new phone.
>
>There are a lot of TDMA subscribers on very low cost plans, that
>Cingular will not match on GSM. I.e., I've had very low monthly cost
>TDMA plans from AT&T, including one that had NO monthly fee, but that
>cost 35 cents per minute. No way Cingular would keep such plans on GSM.

Right -- they're not profitable, and Cingular isn't as foolish as ATTWS.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

SMS wrote:
>
> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>
> > Higher cost? There's a new surcharge for TDMA service. When I spoke to
> > the folks at the phone store about switching to GSM, it was a straight
> > across switch. No plan change, just buy a new phone.
>
> There are a lot of TDMA subscribers on very low cost plans, that
> Cingular will not match on GSM. I.e., I've had very low monthly cost
> TDMA plans from AT&T, including one that had NO monthly fee, but that
> cost 35 cents per minute. No way Cingular would keep such plans on GSM.

Same plan I've got and that they offered to switch onto a GSM phone for
me. I would have jumped on it except GSM doesn't work at my cabin (and I
don't have a land line there).

> > The most profitable customers might be the ones who got suckered into
> > the latest technology phones, with ring tones, designer colors, GSM,
> > etc. I question whether its a sound business plan to depend on your most
> > gullible customers for the bulk of your revenue.
>
> Ha, I often wonder the exact same thing. Sooner or later everyone gets
> tired of new ringtones, uploading bad photos, etc. Data was to be the
> killer-app, but ubiquitous free 802.11 is killing that for the casual user.

Yep. In fact, out in the boondocks, our power company put in a
(proprietary?) wireless network for remote meter reading. There's talk
that they are going to open it up for broadband access. I might be
getting wireless VoIP at my cabin before GSM makes it out there.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Leap and the net will appear.

John Navas wrote:
>
> On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:01:25 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
> <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>
> >SMS wrote:
> >>
> >> Scott wrote:
>
> >> For one thing, the low revenue customers for Cingular are mostly on
> >> TDMA, a network that they are trying to get everyone off of. Unlike
> >> Sprint and Verizon, they have a stick that forces their older customers
> >> to actually do something rather than sit back and enjoy a low-priced
> >> plan forever.
> >
> >That's a gamble which Cingular made and may have bet their survival on.
> >If it turns out that TDMA customers are more profitable, they will leave
> >in droves when they lose coverage in fringe areas like resorts, on their
> >yachts, etc.
>
> Cingular undoubtedly knows whether they are profitable or not.

But do they know how many people that do several hundred dollars a month
of air time during the week will drop them like a rock when the few
calls them make from the ski lodge won't go through anymore?

They might think that since most of their TDMA call volumes occur within
areas overlapped by GSM, that the few (low volume, low profit) calls
placed by the same customers in fringe areas aren't as important to them
(the customer). That could be a big mistake.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Optimist: "The glass is half-full."
Pessimist: "The glass is half-empty."
Engineer: "The glass is twice as big as it needs to be."

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John Navas wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:01:25 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
>> <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>>
>> >SMS wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Scott wrote:
>>
>> >> For one thing, the low revenue customers for Cingular are mostly on
>> >> TDMA, a network that they are trying to get everyone off of. Unlike
>> >> Sprint and Verizon, they have a stick that forces their older
>> >> customers
>> >> to actually do something rather than sit back and enjoy a low-priced
>> >> plan forever.
>> >
>> >That's a gamble which Cingular made and may have bet their survival on.
>> >If it turns out that TDMA customers are more profitable, they will leave
>> >in droves when they lose coverage in fringe areas like resorts, on their
>> >yachts, etc.
>>
>> Cingular undoubtedly knows whether they are profitable or not.
>
> But do they know how many people that do several hundred dollars a month
> of air time during the week will drop them like a rock when the few
> calls them make from the ski lodge won't go through anymore?
>
> They might think that since most of their TDMA call volumes occur within
> areas overlapped by GSM, that the few (low volume, low profit) calls
> placed by the same customers in fringe areas aren't as important to them
> (the customer). That could be a big mistake.
>

Excellent point- I hadn't considered the TDMA roamers. High ARPU GSM
customers fleeing for the first carrier that offers them a deal and rural
coverage. Somehow I don't think was a part of the business plan.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:37:56 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

>John Navas wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:01:25 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
>> <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>>
>> >SMS wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Scott wrote:
>>
>> >> For one thing, the low revenue customers for Cingular are mostly on
>> >> TDMA, a network that they are trying to get everyone off of. Unlike
>> >> Sprint and Verizon, they have a stick that forces their older customers
>> >> to actually do something rather than sit back and enjoy a low-priced
>> >> plan forever.
>> >
>> >That's a gamble which Cingular made and may have bet their survival on.
>> >If it turns out that TDMA customers are more profitable, they will leave
>> >in droves when they lose coverage in fringe areas like resorts, on their
>> >yachts, etc.
>>
>> Cingular undoubtedly knows whether they are profitable or not.
>
>But do they know how many people that do several hundred dollars a month
>of air time during the week will drop them like a rock when the few
>calls them make from the ski lodge won't go through anymore?
>
>They might think that since most of their TDMA call volumes occur within
>areas overlapped by GSM, that the few (low volume, low profit) calls
>placed by the same customers in fringe areas aren't as important to them
>(the customer). That could be a big mistake.

Given that these remaining D-AMPS ("TDMA") customers make only 1/4 as
many calls as average subscribers (according to Cingular data), that
wouldn't seem to be the case.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

> Yep. In fact, out in the boondocks, our power company put in a
> (proprietary?) wireless network for remote meter reading. There's talk
> that they are going to open it up for broadband access. I might be
> getting wireless VoIP at my cabin before GSM makes it out there.
>

Broadband over power lines is tricky when it has to go through
transformers. I know that within the home it can actually be faster than
802.11g, and some high end entertainment devices are going to be using
it as a backbone.

SMS wrote:
>
> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>
> > Yep. In fact, out in the boondocks, our power company put in a
> > (proprietary?) wireless network for remote meter reading. There's talk
> > that they are going to open it up for broadband access. I might be
> > getting wireless VoIP at my cabin before GSM makes it out there.
> >
>
> Broadband over power lines is tricky when it has to go through
> transformers. I know that within the home it can actually be faster than
> 802.11g, and some high end entertainment devices are going to be using
> it as a backbone.

Its a wireless system. They have little repeaters every few hundred (or
maybe thousand) yards.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
c (velocity of light in a vacuum) = 1.8x10^12 furlongs per fortnight

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:57:04 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>SMS wrote:
>>
>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>
>> > Yep. In fact, out in the boondocks, our power company put in a
>> > (proprietary?) wireless network for remote meter reading. There's talk
>> > that they are going to open it up for broadband access. I might be
>> > getting wireless VoIP at my cabin before GSM makes it out there.
>> >
>>
>> Broadband over power lines is tricky when it has to go through
>> transformers. I know that within the home it can actually be faster than
>> 802.11g, and some high end entertainment devices are going to be using
>> it as a backbone.
>
>Its a wireless system. They have little repeaters every few hundred (or
>maybe thousand) yards.

Except that it travels by wire (power lines) to get to the repeaters.