Dual Mode GSM + AMPS Phones?

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:20:18 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

>... There are a lot of cellular services
>sold to people other than the general public that might still be using
>AMPS/TDMA networks.

They have been being phased out ever since the FCC announced the
expiration of the AMPS mandate.

>They need the public off of these

Yes, because carriers want to shut them down and migrate the spectrum to
digital.

>(for one thing, I
>don't think AMPS can comply with the E911 location requirements).

It can't, although that's not really an issue.

>If they really were going to turn it off, they'd just start sending out
>warnings (including those annoying text messages) to tell people that
>their TDMA phone will be going dead in X days. The $5.00 surcharge
>indicates that the threat of a dead phone won't work for some reason
>(like its not really going dead).

It's less offensive than cutting off service.

>Or, a $5.00 monthly charge is designed to drive all the cheapskates off
>and save TDMA capacity for accounts where $5 is a mere drop in the
>bucket.

Cingular really does want to shut down TDMA.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

---

› See More: Dual Mode GSM + AMPS Phones?

In article <KIRoJuEXw9g9-pn2-TnYxRq3fI9oO@localhost>, [email protected]
says...

> Why do they make it so difficult to signup for GAIT now?
>
> Why don't they still make a GAIT phone available for sale from them?
> Nokia could have continued to make and sell the 6430i, maybe selling
> it at a premium, for customers who need to travel and rural customers.
> With the lack of other, modern features, they wouldn't have to worry
> about it selling in large numbers.
>
It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere. The
structure is already in place--all it would cost them is a little bit of
support. Instead they voluntarily throw it away and let Verizon and
Sprint use it to lure customers.

I have the 6340i. No it doesn't have GPRS nor a camera nor all the other
latest goodies--it's a phone first, and a dxxn good one at that. I swap
the sim out to a JAM pda/phone except when I need TDMA or AMPS and
others would probably do the same. So they'd get to sell those users 2
phones.

> from John
> Which would be a big problem, because only mass production is cost
> effective. When demand fall off, production gets shut down.

BS. Companies do limited production runs all the time for special
models. Take a look at 90% of the hardware Sears, Home Depot, Sams Club,
Costco and ACE hardware sells--special models made just for them. The
major expense on the 6340i is long since amortized--now all it would
take is to drop in some molds and load a tape. Take longer to QC and
package them than it would to changeover and back. If Cingular ordered
1000 or 10,000 6340i's Nokia would ask how soon. (Oops--I do see one
slight problem--Nokia didn't make all the chip(s) in the 6340--are
"they" still available?)

Cingular could even demand customers pay full price for the phone since
the only other source would be ebay--plus charging a fee for GAIT--maybe
even roaming fees. No, it's never made sense--someone at Cingular has
their head up their ass.
--
Jud
Dallas TX USA

Jud Hardcastle wrote:

> It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
> phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
> easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere.

It does make sense, because if they don't get AMPS usage low enough,
then the FCC will not allow it to be shut down in 2008. The problem with
digital, especially GSM, is that there are a lot of areas with no
coverage, so if they offered a GSM/AMPS phone, AMPS usage would
skyrocket, and they wouldn't be able to turn it off. It's an especially
big problem in urban areas because this is where the carriers need the
bandwidth currently used by AMPS, and surprisingly, it's also where the
most AMPS calls still occur.

When the FCC set the policy on AMPS, they expected that the way the
carriers would effectively eliminate AMPS usage would be by overlaying
digital everywhere that there was AMPS. Instead, some carriers simply
stopped selling handsets that supported AMPS. Unfortunately, it just
isn't practical to install enough towers for digital, given the fact
that digital, especially GSM, has a much shorter range*.






* One person in the U.S. has extended range GSM.

On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:08:19 UTC, Jud Hardcastle
<[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <KIRoJuEXw9g9-pn2-TnYxRq3fI9oO@localhost>, [email protected]
> says...
>
> > Why do they make it so difficult to signup for GAIT now?
> >
> > Why don't they still make a GAIT phone available for sale from them?
> > Nokia could have continued to make and sell the 6430i, maybe selling
> > it at a premium, for customers who need to travel and rural customers.
> > With the lack of other, modern features, they wouldn't have to worry
> > about it selling in large numbers.
> >
> It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
> phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
> easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere. The
> structure is already in place--all it would cost them is a little bit of
> support. Instead they voluntarily throw it away and let Verizon and
> Sprint use it to lure customers.
>
> I have the 6340i. No it doesn't have GPRS nor a camera nor all the other
> latest goodies--it's a phone first, and a dxxn good one at that. I swap
> the sim out to a JAM pda/phone except when I need TDMA or AMPS and
> others would probably do the same. So they'd get to sell those users 2
> phones.
>
> > from John
> > Which would be a big problem, because only mass production is cost
> > effective. When demand fall off, production gets shut down.
>
> BS. Companies do limited production runs all the time for special
> models. Take a look at 90% of the hardware Sears, Home Depot, Sams Club,
> Costco and ACE hardware sells--special models made just for them. The
> major expense on the 6340i is long since amortized--now all it would
> take is to drop in some molds and load a tape. Take longer to QC and
> package them than it would to changeover and back. If Cingular ordered
> 1000 or 10,000 6340i's Nokia would ask how soon. (Oops--I do see one
> slight problem--Nokia didn't make all the chip(s) in the 6340--are
> "they" still available?)
>
> Cingular could even demand customers pay full price for the phone since
> the only other source would be ebay--plus charging a fee for GAIT--maybe
> even roaming fees. No, it's never made sense--someone at Cingular has
> their head up their ass.

You may be right about some components. If they aren't available
anymore, it would require more investment to make a 6430i equivalent.

The only problem I've had with mine is the plastic button on the top.
I noticed one day that it was missing, and I had to use a sharp object
to power on/off. I bought a cheap, used, replacement on Ebay to get
the button off of it. Then, a couple weeks ago, I dropped the phone
on concrete. Noticed later it was missing again. Were they ALL this
touchy (I was using it that day because my regular phone's battery
was dead, and the car charger was left in my car, which was at the
dealership for service).

--

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:39:42 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
wrote in <[email protected]>:

>Jud Hardcastle wrote:
>
>> It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
>> phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
>> easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere.
>
>It does make sense, because if they don't get AMPS usage low enough,
>then the FCC will not allow it to be shut down in 2008.

The sunset is set, and the FCC is pushing it as much or more than the
carriers.

>The problem with
>digital, especially GSM, is that there are a lot of areas with no
>coverage, so if they offered a GSM/AMPS phone, AMPS usage would
>skyrocket, and they wouldn't be able to turn it off. It's an especially
>big problem in urban areas because this is where the carriers need the
>bandwidth currently used by AMPS, and surprisingly, it's also where the
>most AMPS calls still occur.

Digital coverage is actually quite good, and getting better.

>When the FCC set the policy on AMPS, they expected that the way the
>carriers would effectively eliminate AMPS usage would be by overlaying
>digital everywhere that there was AMPS.

Not true.

>Instead, some carriers simply
>stopped selling handsets that supported AMPS. Unfortunately, it just
>isn't practical to install enough towers for digital, given the fact
>that digital, especially GSM, has a much shorter range*.

Also untrue.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

SMS wrote:
>> When the FCC set the policy on AMPS, they expected that the way the
>> carriers would effectively eliminate AMPS usage would be by overlaying
>> digital everywhere that there was AMPS.

John Navas refuted:
> Not true.

SMS' comment make very good sense, Navas' comment doesn't. Too bad he
didn't offer supporting evidence to prove SMS wrong.

John Navas wrote:
>
> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:39:42 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>
> >Jud Hardcastle wrote:
> >
> >> It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
> >> phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
> >> easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere.
> >
> >It does make sense, because if they don't get AMPS usage low enough,
> >then the FCC will not allow it to be shut down in 2008.
>
> The sunset is set, and the FCC is pushing it as much or more than the
> carriers.

They want UHF channels 70-83 back? ;-)

> >The problem with
> >digital, especially GSM, is that there are a lot of areas with no
> >coverage, so if they offered a GSM/AMPS phone, AMPS usage would
> >skyrocket, and they wouldn't be able to turn it off. It's an especially
> >big problem in urban areas because this is where the carriers need the
> >bandwidth currently used by AMPS, and surprisingly, it's also where the
> >most AMPS calls still occur.
>
> Digital coverage is actually quite good, and getting better.

That would be the preferred way to get rid of AMPS. Offer dual-mode
(GAITS) phones and then start disabling the AMPS network from the urban
centers outward. The motivation to upgrade would be better (you'd lose
urban connectivity first if you hung onto your old AMPS phone), but the
rural conversion would be seamless.

> >When the FCC set the policy on AMPS, they expected that the way the
> >carriers would effectively eliminate AMPS usage would be by overlaying
> >digital everywhere that there was AMPS.
>
> Not true.

If the above is not true, then was the FCC actually anticipating that
carriers would abandon some customers? That seems to be the only
alternative given the assumption that AMPS must go, no matter what.


--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:[email protected]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Fast wine, loose cars, old women.

AMPS & TDMA are a very expensive technology to keep active, especially
for the amount of customers that are still on that service. To advance
as a wireless company they must step away from that technology and keep
all there customers on a single platform (GSM).

The features that federal and local governments will be requiring are
simply not capable on TDMA and AMPS.

Now the hard dollars:
The target min. Monthly Service Charge for a customer by any major
wireless provider is $40 (+/-). Many of the legacy users on TDMA and
AMPS are in the $18 range.
Keeping contracts with vendors to support the back end systems is also
very expensive for a provider.

Squeeze them out, make room for bandwidth, move on.

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:39:42 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>
>>Jud Hardcastle wrote:
>>
>>> It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
>>> phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
>>> easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere.
>>
>>It does make sense, because if they don't get AMPS usage low enough,
>>then the FCC will not allow it to be shut down in 2008.
>
> The sunset is set, and the FCC is pushing it as much or more than the
> carriers.

According to who?

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:15:52 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

>John Navas wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:39:42 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>

>> >When the FCC set the policy on AMPS, they expected that the way the
>> >carriers would effectively eliminate AMPS usage would be by overlaying
>> >digital everywhere that there was AMPS.
>>
>> Not true.
>
>If the above is not true, then was the FCC actually anticipating that
>carriers would abandon some customers? That seems to be the only
>alternative given the assumption that AMPS must go, no matter what.

Available documents suggest the FCC expects carriers to encourage AMPS
users to move on.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

On 6 Aug 2006 20:01:03 -0700, "Bill_T" <[email protected]> wrote in
<[email protected]>:

>AMPS & TDMA are a very expensive technology to keep active, especially
>for the amount of customers that are still on that service. To advance
>as a wireless company they must step away from that technology and keep
>all there customers on a single platform (GSM).
>
>The features that federal and local governments will be requiring are
>simply not capable on TDMA and AMPS.
>
>Now the hard dollars:
>The target min. Monthly Service Charge for a customer by any major
>wireless provider is $40 (+/-). Many of the legacy users on TDMA and
>AMPS are in the $18 range.
>Keeping contracts with vendors to support the back end systems is also
>very expensive for a provider.
>
>Squeeze them out, make room for bandwidth, move on.

Well put.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:33:40 -0600, "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in
<[email protected]>:

>
>"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:39:42 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
>> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>>
>>>Jud Hardcastle wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's never made marketing sense to me. Continuing to offer the GAIT
>>>> phones/feature until the end of both TDMA *and* AMPS would have been an
>>>> easy way to satisfy the users who needed coverage everywhere.
>>>
>>>It does make sense, because if they don't get AMPS usage low enough,
>>>then the FCC will not allow it to be shut down in 2008.
>>
>> The sunset is set, and the FCC is pushing it as much or more than the
>> carriers.
>
>According to who?

The FCC.

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>