Cannot upgrade - I'm an unprofitable customer

At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were eligible
and had different dates depending on the contract date.

Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."

After talking to CS, I find I'm a customer non grata. They say I'm costing
them money by using a non cingular tower. (I have a nation wide everything
plan). That makes my good customer score a "1" and I need to be a "2" or
more to upgrade.

I have 4 of the phones in my hometown in the Austin, TX area. I guess the
5th is the offending phone at Texas State U in San Marcos. They can't tell
me which competitor's (aka partner) tower I'm hitting, but I guess it's the
college kid.

Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.

---

› See More: Cannot upgrade - I'm an unprofitable customer

Marc wrote:
> At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were eligible
> and had different dates depending on the contract date.
>
> Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."
>
> After talking to CS, I find I'm a customer non grata. They say I'm costing
> them money by using a non cingular tower. (I have a nation wide everything
> plan). That makes my good customer score a "1" and I need to be a "2" or
> more to upgrade.
>
> I have 4 of the phones in my hometown in the Austin, TX area. I guess the
> 5th is the offending phone at Texas State U in San Marcos. They can't tell
> me which competitor's (aka partner) tower I'm hitting, but I guess it's the
> college kid.
>
> Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
> phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.


You're not the first to ask about this, so the same advice is... you
could try reading the fine print on the kid's contract. If you had,
you'd understand and not be here asking these questions.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:33:46 GMT, "Marc" <[email protected]> wrote
in <[email protected]>:

>At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were eligible
>and had different dates depending on the contract date.
>
>Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."
>
>After talking to CS, I find I'm a customer non grata. They say I'm costing
>them money by using a non cingular tower. (I have a nation wide everything
>plan). That makes my good customer score a "1" and I need to be a "2" or
>more to upgrade.
>
>I have 4 of the phones in my hometown in the Austin, TX area. I guess the
>5th is the offending phone at Texas State U in San Marcos. They can't tell
>me which competitor's (aka partner) tower I'm hitting, but I guess it's the
>college kid.
>
>Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
>phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.

Could it be that you're not sufficiently near contract expiration to
qualify for upgrade?

--
Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

I'm past contract expiration date.

"John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:33:46 GMT, "Marc" <[email protected]> wrote
> in <[email protected]>:
>
>>At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were
>>eligible
>>and had different dates depending on the contract date.
>>
>>Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."
>>
>>After talking to CS, I find I'm a customer non grata. They say I'm
>>costing
>>them money by using a non cingular tower. (I have a nation wide
>>everything
>>plan). That makes my good customer score a "1" and I need to be a "2" or
>>more to upgrade.
>>
>>I have 4 of the phones in my hometown in the Austin, TX area. I guess the
>>5th is the offending phone at Texas State U in San Marcos. They can't
>>tell
>>me which competitor's (aka partner) tower I'm hitting, but I guess it's
>>the
>>college kid.
>>
>>Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
>>phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.
>
> Could it be that you're not sufficiently near contract expiration to
> qualify for upgrade?
>
> --
> Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
> John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>

Jer, I'm glad you understand all,and so, with your permission I'm going to
ask a question.

How could I tell before I offended you and cingular that I am using a
non-cingular tower? Year's ago, my old phone would always tell me whose
tower I was on. I don't think I can see that info on my x427m. Maybe you
can tell me how to change it so that I can.

According the the usage area map, all my phones are in Cingular's area.
There are no red x's pointing out non-cingular towers.
"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Marc wrote:
>> At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were
>> eligible and had different dates depending on the contract date.
>>
>> Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."
>>
>> After talking to CS, I find I'm a customer non grata. They say I'm
>> costing them money by using a non cingular tower. (I have a nation wide
>> everything plan). That makes my good customer score a "1" and I need to
>> be a "2" or more to upgrade.
>>
>> I have 4 of the phones in my hometown in the Austin, TX area. I guess
>> the 5th is the offending phone at Texas State U in San Marcos. They
>> can't tell me which competitor's (aka partner) tower I'm hitting, but I
>> guess it's the college kid.
>>
>> Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
>> phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.
>
>
> You're not the first to ask about this, so the same advice is... you could
> try reading the fine print on the kid's contract. If you had, you'd
> understand and not be here asking these questions.
>
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

"Marc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were
> eligible and had different dates depending on the contract date.
>
> Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."
>
> After talking to CS, I find I'm a customer non grata. They say I'm
> costing them money by using a non cingular tower. (I have a nation wide
> everything plan). That makes my good customer score a "1" and I need to
> be a "2" or more to upgrade.
>
> I have 4 of the phones in my hometown in the Austin, TX area. I guess the
> 5th is the offending phone at Texas State U in San Marcos. They can't
> tell me which competitor's (aka partner) tower I'm hitting, but I guess
> it's the college kid.
>
> Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
> phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.
>


Why not change the kid's number to one that's local to the college area?

mike

Per Marc:
>Anyone else experience this? Can I do anything about it? I guess if my
>phone breaks or I want a new one, I'll have to find the best eBay deal.

I did - albeit with other issues besides towers.

My solution was to move to tMobile a couple of years ago.

tMob's coverage in the Philadelphia PA area is not as good as Cingular's, but I
find it good enough to outweigh the extra fifty bucks or so per month that
staying with Cingular would have cost me.

I'm not saying that Cingular is evil and tMobile is wonderful... Just that
switching worked for me. I might even switch back some day...

As far as replacement phones go, I've been trying to stay away from "free"
phones just so I'm not locked into my contract. The local township's recycle
bin is my main source of replacement phones. Some day I ought to browse the
local thrift shop too...
--
PeteCresswell

Marc wrote:
> At one time I could check when I could update my phones. All were eligible
> and had different dates depending on the contract date.
>
> Now all 5 phones of my family plan say "not eligible for upgrade."

There was an article a while back about how Cingular was cutting phone
upgrades. No longer does every customer qualify, based on a fixed length
of time (such as with Verizon's "New Every Two"). Cingular bases their
upgrades on profitability. Someone leaked this information and Cingular
was upset about it, but in reality it's entirely reasonable, at least if
you don't care about retaining low profit customers.

Per SMS:
> low profit customers.

Is there anything besides using other provider's towers that would cut into a
customer's profitability?

Somebody once characterized me as "The Customer From Hell": Single phone,
minimal minutes, no other services.

But it seems to me like I'm still a source of free money. To the extent that I
don't use a lot of minutes, all I am to the provider is a few records in a
database somewhere and a monthly bill. Let's say I'm paying $50 per month and
they see forth of that. Sending out a bill costs what? Five dollars? Even
if it costs ten... they're still getting $30 per month for not doing anything
else...

??
--
PeteCresswell

Mark wrote:
> Jer, I'm glad you understand all,and so, with your permission I'm going to
> ask a question.
>
> How could I tell before I offended you and cingular that I am using a
> non-cingular tower? Year's ago, my old phone would always tell me whose
> tower I was on. I don't think I can see that info on my x427m. Maybe you
> can tell me how to change it so that I can.
>
> According the the usage area map, all my phones are in Cingular's area.
> There are no red x's pointing out non-cingular towers.


Do you not look at the bills you get? The devil's in the details,
details which indicate whether any particular call was on your home
network or roaming. Roaming cost money, as per the roaming agreements
that Cingular has with a number of other network providers, and they're
billed for the roaming service (air time) their customer used while they
were roaming. This isn't peculiar to Cingular, all network providers
bill other service providers for hauling roamer traffic. There are a
number of small network providers that have no customers of their own -
their sole source of revenue are the roaming fees paid by other service
providers. When a handset is used while roaming, the tab is running,
and the user's service provider is gonna get a bill for that usage.
Depending on the users plan, that per minute cost might show up on the
bill directly, or the roamer's service provider just eats the cost of
their roamer's tab. Apparently, Cingular has a limited diet plan, and
they've decided not to spend a bucket of money to retain certain users,
especially those users that spend significant time using someone else's
network. The "free roaming" marketing speak isn't really free. Never
has been. And this is the reason why Cingular should amend their
coverage maps, not doing so is disingenuous to their own clients,
especially those that no longer have the benefit of feedback from their
own handset displays. The feedback is on the monthly bill, and as such,
is the only detail that is legally binding for this issue.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

At 21 Nov 2006 09:11:17 -0500 (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per SMS:
> > low profit customers.
>
> Is there anything besides using other provider's towers that would
cut into a
> customer's profitability?

Ancient grandfathered rate plans, particularly low-monthy fee ones,
like $19.99 for 60 minutes. (I used to have a $14.99 for 10 minutes
plan once, in the days before prepaid.)
>
> Somebody once characterized me as "The Customer From Hell": Single
phone,
> minimal minutes, no other services.

It's not the minimal minutes as much as the low monthly fee- all
cellular carriers want the highest ARPU (Average Revenue Per User) and
a $15-20 bill brings the average down (which is currently in the high
$40's-low $50's depending on carrier.)
>
> But it seems to me like I'm still a source of free money. To the
extent that I
> don't use a lot of minutes, all I am to the provider is a few records
in a
> database somewhere and a monthly bill. Let's say I'm paying $50 per
month and
> they see forth of that.

If your paying $50/month (for one line) you're not a low-profit
customer unless you do a lot of "free" roaming.

> Sending out a bill costs what? Five dollars? Even
> if it costs ten... they're still getting $30 per month for not doing
anything
> else...

I don't know what the cost to send a bill is per se, but a friend of
mine in Sprint's management said they've calculated the cost of
maintaining a postpaid customer (billing, customer service, etc.- costs
not related to the telecommunications cost of the service) at about
$15/month.

I imagine Cingular's costs would be slightly lower than that, because
their customer service is only open "banker's hours!" ;-)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per SMS:
>> low profit customers.
>
> Is there anything besides using other provider's towers that would cut into a
> customer's profitability?

There is a fixed carrying cost for each customer.

> Somebody once characterized me as "The Customer From Hell": Single phone,
> minimal minutes, no other services.

You drive down the ARPU, and Cingular has the lowest ARPU of the top
four carriers. They are still better off with you than without you, in
terms of profit.

> But it seems to me like I'm still a source of free money. To the extent that I
> don't use a lot of minutes, all I am to the provider is a few records in a
> database somewhere and a monthly bill. Let's say I'm paying $50 per month and
> they see forth of that. Sending out a bill costs what? Five dollars? Even
> if it costs ten... they're still getting $30 per month for not doing anything
> else...

They're happy to have you, but they are not going to spend money to keep
you. Gone are the days of treating the high ARPU customers the same as
the low ARPU customers, in terms of spiffs to retain the low ARPU
customers. Since you probably have a calling plan that is lower than any
current plan from any carrier, they know you're unlikely to leave for
any other carrier, except perhaps a prepaid provider.

Thanks for taking the time for a detailed reply.

I looked over my last bills and do not have any charge or notation for
roaming usage. As far as I can tell right now, there is no way to tell I'm
not using cingular towers.

I also went online to look at the minute detail for the suspected roaming
user and there is no indication of roaming type calls.

Since I'm on a nation wide plan, I guess they save clutter by not showing
any info on non cingular connections.

I have no problem with a business changing their services to stay
profitable. However, after being eligible to upgrade for over a year and
then having that revoked with no prior notification does not seem fair. I
guess that was in some of the fine print that I did not read over.





"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark wrote:
>> Jer, I'm glad you understand all,and so, with your permission I'm going
>> to ask a question.
>>
>> How could I tell before I offended you and cingular that I am using a
>> non-cingular tower? Year's ago, my old phone would always tell me whose
>> tower I was on. I don't think I can see that info on my x427m. Maybe
>> you can tell me how to change it so that I can.
>>
>> According the the usage area map, all my phones are in Cingular's area.
>> There are no red x's pointing out non-cingular towers.
>
>
> Do you not look at the bills you get? The devil's in the details, details
> which indicate whether any particular call was on your home network or
> roaming. Roaming cost money, as per the roaming agreements that Cingular
> has with a number of other network providers, and they're billed for the
> roaming service (air time) their customer used while they were roaming.
> This isn't peculiar to Cingular, all network providers bill other service
> providers for hauling roamer traffic. There are a number of small network
> providers that have no customers of their own - their sole source of
> revenue are the roaming fees paid by other service providers. When a
> handset is used while roaming, the tab is running, and the user's service
> provider is gonna get a bill for that usage. Depending on the users plan,
> that per minute cost might show up on the bill directly, or the roamer's
> service provider just eats the cost of their roamer's tab. Apparently,
> Cingular has a limited diet plan, and they've decided not to spend a
> bucket of money to retain certain users, especially those users that spend
> significant time using someone else's network. The "free roaming"
> marketing speak isn't really free. Never has been. And this is the
> reason why Cingular should amend their coverage maps, not doing so is
> disingenuous to their own clients, especially those that no longer have
> the benefit of feedback from their own handset displays. The feedback is
> on the monthly bill, and as such, is the only detail that is legally
> binding for this issue.
>
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

At 21 Nov 2006 16:44:35 +0000 Marc wrote:
> Thanks for taking the time for a detailed reply.
>
> I looked over my last bills and do not have any charge or notation
for
> roaming usage. As far as I can tell right now, there is no way to
tell I'm
> not using cingular towers.

When I was a Cingular customer a few years ago, I never saw any
breakout of roaming minutes either, unless of course, I was paying for
them. In those days I roamed at least every other month or so, on AT&T
in Omaha (which my phone would display as "extended area"- these were
the TDMA days...)


> I have no problem with a business changing their services to stay
> profitable. However, after being eligible to upgrade for over a year
and
> then having that revoked with no prior notification does not seem fair.



I'd call CS back an ask for a supervisor or some way to escalate this.
Cingular might be making a mistake, or there might be a problem with a
tower near campus causing customers there to roam (unlikely, but
possible.) For laughs, go to the Cingular website like you are a new
customer and see if you can buy service in the college's zip code- if
not, that would indicate that the area is indeed a roaming area.

> I
> guess that was in some of the fine print that I did not read over.

Does the phone off at college actually use more than 50% of the minutes
of your entire family plan? Assuming every call made at school is a
roaming call, and every call at home isn't, the phone at school would
have to be making more than 50% of your entire family plan calling to
hit Cingular's 50% rule!

Does T-Mo, Verizon or Sprint service both areas? It might be time to
switch carriers to one who'll appreciate your business...


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Todd Allcock wrote:
> At 21 Nov 2006 16:44:35 +0000 Marc wrote:
>> Thanks for taking the time for a detailed reply.
>>
>> I looked over my last bills and do not have any charge or notation
> for
>> roaming usage. As far as I can tell right now, there is no way to
> tell I'm
>> not using cingular towers.
>
> When I was a Cingular customer a few years ago, I never saw any
> breakout of roaming minutes either, unless of course, I was paying for
> them. In those days I roamed at least every other month or so, on AT&T
> in Omaha (which my phone would display as "extended area"- these were
> the TDMA days...)
>
>
>> I have no problem with a business changing their services to stay
>> profitable. However, after being eligible to upgrade for over a year
> and
>> then having that revoked with no prior notification does not seem fair.
>
>
>
> I'd call CS back an ask for a supervisor or some way to escalate this.
> Cingular might be making a mistake, or there might be a problem with a
> tower near campus causing customers there to roam (unlikely, but
> possible.) For laughs, go to the Cingular website like you are a new
> customer and see if you can buy service in the college's zip code- if
> not, that would indicate that the area is indeed a roaming area.
>
>> I
>> guess that was in some of the fine print that I did not read over.
>
> Does the phone off at college actually use more than 50% of the minutes
> of your entire family plan? Assuming every call made at school is a
> roaming call, and every call at home isn't, the phone at school would
> have to be making more than 50% of your entire family plan calling to
> hit Cingular's 50% rule!
>
> Does T-Mo, Verizon or Sprint service both areas? It might be time to
> switch carriers to one who'll appreciate your business...
>
>


All good comments, Todd. One makes me re-think one aspect of this
issue... is there a Family Plan involved, or multiple individual
contracts? If multiple contracts, how does one have this affect of the
other's upgrade eligibility?

True that Cingular doesn't like any phone spending an inordinate amount
of it's time roaming, but if a Family Plan covers them all, that one
college phone may well be eating up more than it's share of the >50% rule.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'