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  1. #16
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 06 Mar 2007 08:30:23 -0800 SMS wrote:
    >
    >> There is still a great deal of AMPS coverage in the greater Bay Area,
    >> and it will remain on even after the FCC sunset date until digital
    >> coverage replaces it, though unfortunately there is no way that digital
    >> will cover the vast open areas that AMPS currently covers.

    >
    > Why do you think that? I understand that the distance limitation of GSM
    > makes overlay a bit of a challenge, but why would CDMA overlay be
    > difficult? Even in the rural midwest, where flat terrain and low usage
    > are ideal for AMPS, I've found very few areas with AMPS-only service,
    > although I've USED AMPS due to technology incompatiblities (i.e. roaming
    > on Verizon or Alltel AMPS with a TDMA phone, etc.) but I believe we've
    > reached a point where a dual-band 800/1900 CDMA phone has 99% of the
    > coverage of a tri-mode, (certainly in POPs if not in actual geography.)


    Yes it's the "actual geography" that's the issue. I doubt if there are
    any non-rural AMPS towers that don't have some sort of digital. But just
    in the past three months I've been in several areas of North America
    where there is no GSM or CDMA coverage, just AMPS coverage. One AMPS
    network I used was a Cingular AMPS network in Florida. One was a Telus
    AMPS network in Canada. One was Golden State Cellular in California.

    When I go around the Santa Cruz mountains and East Bay hills I can often
    get AMPS but no CDMA or GSM. Sometimes this is away from the road, but
    often it's on the backroads in remote areas.



    See More: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....




  2. #17
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    At 06 Mar 2007 08:21:33 -0800 SMS wrote:
    >
    > > Good point...never even thought of that!

    >
    > It would all cancel out when comparing carriers, unless harassing exes
    > prefer one carrier over another.
    >


    Boy, wouldn't that be an interesting target market for an MVNO! ;-)




  3. #18
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 06 Mar 2007 16:36:42 +0000 John Navas wrote:
    >
    >> AMPS almost certainly will go off very rapidly after sunset -- carriers
    >> are eager to phase out the costly AMPS coverage and redeploy the
    >> spectrum into profitable digital coverage, as evidenced by both their
    >> actions and their words.

    >
    >
    > I sill take issue with the concept of "costly AMPS coverage." Taking low-
    > usage rural towers in consideration for the moment, how is leaving
    > working AMPS equipment in place to rot more "costly" than replacing it
    > with additional unneeded digital capacity?


    For rural carriers, the loss of AMPS coverage will be costly because of
    roaming revenue. In several industries, including trucking, AMPS is
    still widely used.

    In urban areas the carriers will likely remove the little remaining AMPS
    capacity when their crews are at a cell site for some other reason.
    There is very little AMPS capacity left at each site, and replacing it
    with digital or just removing it, isn't going to affect capacity very
    much at all.

    Cingular has an incentive to turn off AMPS as after TDMA is shut down
    the only users using AMPS will be subscribers from CDMA carriers. No
    sense improving the network coverage of your competitors. So I'm sure
    that I'll lose that nice AMPS coverage out in the Everglades where
    Cingular has both the A and B side 800 MHz networks. Maybe Cingular will
    install Extended Range GSM, LOL.



  4. #19
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 06 Mar 2007 08:21:33 -0800 SMS wrote:
    >>> Good point...never even thought of that!

    >> It would all cancel out when comparing carriers, unless harassing exes
    >> prefer one carrier over another.
    >>

    >
    > Boy, wouldn't that be an interesting target market for an MVNO! ;-)


    I was going to make a comment on how certain carriers might affect the
    divorce rate, but maybe an MVNO targeting divorced couples that don't
    get along would be more interesting.



  5. #20
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    At 06 Mar 2007 19:28:04 +0000 John Navas wrote:

    > The carrier simply can't afford to do that due to negative backlash from
    > users. If the AMPS network is to be left up, then it has to be fully
    > maintained, a process that becomes more costly as it ages, components
    > become more difficult and expensive to get, and trained personnel become
    > less available.


    Only if the carrier commits to allowing AMPS-only customers. I suspect
    the vast majority of even very rural customers have been converted to
    digital or digital/analog nits long ago. A roamer who is delighted to
    find he has service in East Undershirt, IA isn't doing to notice or
    complain that service wasn't available in West Cupcake, 30 miles back
    down the road, even if both towers were part of the same network.


    > As AMPS revenues go down, and the opportunity for digital revenues goes
    > up, the case for shutting down and migrating the AMPS spectrum becomes
    > ever more compelling. Spectrum is an expensive and finite resource.


    In San Fran, yes. On a tower along I-70 in rural Kansas that processes
    80 calls at peak times, spectrum isn't an isue- maximizing how many
    different types of technology can use their service, is.

    Look at Alltel- they're a CDMA carrier that left GSM capacity on their
    rural midwestern networks just to service roamers. If spectrum was that
    tight, they'd change everything to CDMA to better service their own
    customers. Fortunately for me (who has roamed on Alltel quite a bit, in
    both GSM with T-Mo, and Beyond Wireless in AMPS) they have capacity to
    spare for CDMA, GSM, AMPS, and probably even a channel or two dedicated
    to relaying smoke signals... ;-)

    > >Sure, removing any traces of AMPS in urban/suburban areas MIGHT make
    > >sense for increasing capacity (but even then, not much- most
    > >urban/suburban installations are down to one or two channels of AMPS
    > >anyway- digital can get what, 3 or 4 calls per channel instead of one?

    >
    > Eight with GSM. Roughly the same with CDMA. The difference is almost
    > an order of magnitude. Huge.


    Huge, IF a tower is running 100% analog. Switching the last two channels
    of AMPS to digital is a net gain of 14 calls using your numbers.


    > I disagree -- both carriers and major users (e.g. AlarmNet, OnStar) have
    > already announced plans to rapidly phase out AMPS.


    Officially, for their customers use, perhaps. My point is that the
    actual AMPS capacity itself will likely remain operational (for use by
    roamers or 911 calls) until techs are dispatched to those towers for some
    other more compelling (and economical) reason, like a repair. Outside of
    urban/suburban sprawl, towers are just not running anywhere close to full
    capacity, so there is no urgent, (or cost-effective) need to convert a
    handful of analog channels to digital to shoehorn in a little more
    calling capacity.

    I'm not even suggesting that there is a need for AMPS coverage beyond the
    sunset date- I'm just suggesting that the inertia and economy of wireless
    companies will see to it that change happens slowly.





  6. #21
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    At 06 Mar 2007 12:10:42 -0800 SMS wrote:

    > I was going to make a comment on how certain carriers might affect
    > the divorce rate, but maybe an MVNO targeting divorced couples that
    > don't get along would be more interesting.
    >


    Sure- picture a family plan that offers unlimited calls to your kids, and
    forwards your ex's calls to your attorney automatically! ;-)





  7. #22
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    DTC wrote:
    > Todd Allcock wrote:
    >> AMPS equipment will be like the 5-1/4" floppy drives sitting in stacks of
    >> older computers in businesses nationwide. No one uses them, they
    >> aren't hurting anyone, and we're certainly not going to pay anyone to
    >> remove them unless they're already servicing the equipment for a more
    >> important reason anyway... ;-)

    >
    > In telephone company lingo, its called R.I.P. - Retire In Place.


    The 5¼" drives are only a problem when someone that has never seen one
    before thinks that it's a slot-loading CD-ROM drive.



  8. #23
    Scott
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:
    \
    > AMPS almost certainly will go off very rapidly after sunset --
    > carriers are eager to phase out the costly AMPS coverage and redeploy
    > the spectrum into profitable digital coverage, as evidenced by both
    > their actions and their words.
    >


    Anything to back that up, like a quote or press release? Of course not-
    you're making it up.



  9. #24
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    Scott wrote:

    > Anything to back that up, like a quote or press release? Of course not-
    > you're making it up.


    Standard Navas procedure.

    In any case, urban AMPS will likely be shut down as Dennis stated, with
    RIP (retire in place) since no carrier is going to waste resources
    rolling a truck out to every tower to disable a service that at worst is
    not being used, and at best is providing some roaming revenue.

    In rural areas the situation is different.

    "But experts say that even after the FCC law expires in 2008, not all
    wireless providers will drop AMPS coverage in rural areas just because
    they can. Most likely, they will have a solid business case for keeping
    AMPS service in rural areas.

    In general, our expectation is that in urban areas, AMPS will be turned
    off, says Bob Schoenfield, senior vice president of business development
    for Aeris.net. In rural areas and highways, the smaller regional
    carriers will continue to carry AMPS for another few years (beyond
    2008). There are economical reasons to do that."

    This is from "http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=51944"



  10. #25
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    DTC wrote:

    > Am I going to have to look for my prized "Notes on the Network" and scan
    > the pages that say that?
    >
    > You have heard of that book, right?


    Delivering telephone directories is his concept of "working in the
    industry."

    My first job out of college was working in for an operating company
    (GTE). My first assignment was debugging a timing problem in Strowger
    switches that was causing pay phones in Orange County to refund coins,
    rather than collect them, after a completed call. Unfortunately, there
    was no solution, other than to wait for the few remaining Strowger
    switches to be replaced (this was in the 1980's).



  11. #26
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    Don Udel (ETC) wrote:

    > BellSouth and AT&T for two. Of course those may be "tiny locals" in your
    > world.


    GTE used to do it as well. I presume that now that Verizon has the GTE
    locals that they do the same thing.

    I remember when I worked for GTE, one of the employees, very dedicated
    apparently, came in with his vacation pictures. He had driven across the
    U.S. and Canada in his RV, and had taken pictures of the outdoor mounted
    GTE Lenkurt transmission equipment along the route. I worked for the
    division that made digital switches, transmission equipment and digital
    radios. It was quite an operation in San Carlos, we even made our own
    transformers, inductors, and capacitors. Alas, with deregulation we lost
    our captive GTE operating company customers, and that was the end of that.



  12. #27
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    DTC wrote:
    > John Navas wrote:
    >> We'll just have to agree to disagree.

    >
    > Translation: "I can't Google for any citations to back up my statement"


    LOL. It goes get amusing to see people, not just Navas, base their
    entire knowledge of a subject on what little information they are able
    to Google. When confronted with the facts, they back down with the
    "agree to disagree" schtick.



  13. #28
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    DTC wrote:
    > DTC wrote:
    >> Am I going to have to look for my prized "Notes on the Network" and scan
    >> the pages that say that?
    >>
    >> You have heard of that book, right?

    >
    > Hint...it was a baby blue one and a half inch thick book with AT&T on
    > the cover.
    >
    > Considered by hackers twenty plus years ago to be a very valuable resource.


    Are you talking about the Blue Book, aka as the Bell System Technical
    Journal from Bell Labs? It was where the MF signaling tones were first
    disclosed, which led to all the phreaking with the Blue Boxes. An
    Esquire article on phreaking revealed this little secret, and Oui
    magazine also had them.

    Ramparts (now Mother Jones), had an article on building a Black Box,
    which was very simple, it was just a resistor, a capacitor, and a
    pushbutton switch. It let you receive long distance calls at no cost to
    the caller because it made it seem as if the called party never picked up.

    Good article at
    "http://www.atariarchives.org/deli/the_merry_pranksters_of_microcomputing.php"
    with a great picture of Jobs and Wozniak.



  14. #29
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    DTC wrote:

    > Shall we start on your "authoritative citation" in which you quoted
    > yourself proving you experienced Extended GSM?


    You mean you can't create a fictional account of something that never
    happened then turn around and cite your own story as proof? Ronald
    Reagan used to do this all the time. He loved the fictional anecdote.



  15. #30
    Scott
    Guest

    Re: THe winner with the fewest dropped calls is.....

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:54:33 -0800, SMS <[email protected]>
    > wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>DTC wrote:
    >>> John Navas wrote:
    >>>> We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    >>>
    >>> Translation: "I can't Google for any citations to back up my
    >>> statement"

    >>
    >>LOL. It goes get amusing to see people, not just Navas, base their
    >>entire knowledge of a subject on what little information they are able
    >>to Google. When confronted with the facts, they back down with the
    >>"agree to disagree" schtick.

    >
    > Not even a nice try. Having posted my authoritative citations
    > (instead of making stuff up the way you do), I'm just not interested
    > in wasting more time on a silly pissing content. Have a nice day.
    >


    You haven't posted anything authoritative in years. Copying a google link
    and hoping that it is the answer doesn't qualify.



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