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  1. #1
    SMS
    Guest
    See "http://tinyurl.com/28gjdz"



    See More: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T




  2. #2
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:51:19 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >See "http://tinyurl.com/28gjdz"


    <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>

    Verizon’s wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    which serves 62.2 million customers.

    So much for claims here to the contrary.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  3. #3
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    In alt.cellular.verizon John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:51:19 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    > wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>See "http://tinyurl.com/28gjdz"

    >
    > <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>
    >
    > Verizon?s wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    > Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    > quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    > quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    > which serves 62.2 million customers.
    >
    > So much for claims here to the contrary.
    >


    Next quarter, two quarters max.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: D281 77A5 63EE 82C5 5E68 00E4 7868 0ADC 4EFB 39F0





  4. #4
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    > In alt.cellular.verizon John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:51:19 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    >> wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >>
    >>> See "http://tinyurl.com/28gjdz"

    >> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>
    >>
    >> Verizon?s wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    >> Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    >> quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    >> quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    >> which serves 62.2 million customers.
    >>
    >> So much for claims here to the contrary.
    >>

    >
    > Next quarter, two quarters max.


    What Navas doesn't understand is the difference between actual customers
    of the carrier, and customers of MVNOs.

    It's not accurate for Cingular to claim customers of their wholesale
    MVNOs as Cingular customers. Cingular leases their network to these
    MVNOs, but they aren't Cingular's customers per-se.

    Now if Cingular wants to say something like "More people use our network
    than any other network" that would be accurate. But the fact remains
    that in terms of actual customers, Verizon has passed Cingular.



  5. #5
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    On Thu, 03 May 2007 14:57:50 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    >> In alt.cellular.verizon John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:51:19 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    >>> wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >>>
    >>>> See "http://tinyurl.com/28gjdz"
    >>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>
    >>>
    >>> Verizon?s wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    >>> Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    >>> quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    >>> quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    >>> which serves 62.2 million customers.
    >>>
    >>> So much for claims here to the contrary.


    >What Navas doesn't understand is the difference between actual customers
    >of the carrier, and customers of MVNOs.


    I understand perfectly. I just don't have an anti-GSM
    anti-AT&T/Cingular agenda.

    >Now if Cingular wants to say something like "More people use our network
    >than any other network" that would be accurate. But the fact remains
    >that in terms of actual customers, Verizon has passed Cingular.


    The quote above speaks for itself, no matter what you may claim.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  6. #6
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    At 03 May 2007 14:57:50 -0700 SMS wrote:


    > It's not accurate for Cingular to claim customers of their wholesale
    > MVNOs as Cingular customers.


    "Number of customers" doesn't have a hard and fast definition- if you
    want to exclude wholesale, fine, how about prepaid? Is a four-line
    family plan four customers or one? My two-TV satellite system is only
    "one customer" to DISH Network, is my two-line T-Mobile family plan two
    customers to T-Mo? Well, that's up to T-Mobile- do they want two
    customers with a lower ARPU, or one with a high ARPU?

    > Cingular leases their network to these MVNOs, but they aren't Cingular's
    > customers per-se.


    Not retail customers, but those end users are purchasing the MVNO's
    "service," based, at least in part, by the strength of the underlying
    network. Look at yourself- you didn't buy PagePlus for your daughter
    because of their snazzy website or top-notch customer service- you bought
    them because they sell prepaid "Verizon service" for $2.50/month instead
    of $15.

    > Now if Cingular wants to say something like "More people use our network
    > than any other network" that would be accurate.


    Companies that sell both wholesale and retail often combine the sales
    figures of both business arms. It's up to the company and how they want
    to "massage" the numbers.

    It's a double edged sword- if you take out the relatively low ARPU
    wholesale customers, the number of customers goes down, but ARPU and data
    ARPU go up.


    > But the fact remains that in terms of actual customers, Verizon has
    > passed Cingular.


    To pull a Clinton, it really depends what your definition of "is" is! Is
    a Beyond customer a Cingular customer? Probably not, but Beyond itself
    IS a Cingular customer- as is Consumer Cellular, Ztar (7-11's Speakout)
    etc. Why shouldn't THOSE "multi-line" customers count, even if they
    purchase at a "discount" (wholesale) when multi-line municipal,
    government and corporate customers count (and also purchase service at a
    discount!)
    Perhaps the real lesson in this diatribe is that in the real world things
    like commerce are too complicated to wrap up in a single nebulous (and
    self-serving) statistic.

    IIRC, Verizon already leads in revenue due to higher ARPU, but you have
    to admit that "more customers than any other wireless carrier" sounds
    better in ads than "rakes in more money than any other wireless carrier!"



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com




  7. #7
    Kevin Weaver
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    Now I've seen and heard it all. Was it not you that posted the Cingular has
    more customers then Verizon when the news broke out the 1st time ?

    Now say yes. And step down from the soap box.

    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Thu, 03 May 2007 12:58:54 GMT, [email protected] wrote in
    > <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>On Wed, 02 May 2007 20:30:33 GMT, John Navas
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Tue, 01 May 2007 15:51:19 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    >>>wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >>>
    >>>>See "http://tinyurl.com/28gjdz"
    >>>
    >>><http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>
    >>>
    >>> Verizon's wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    >>> Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    >>> quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    >>> quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    >>> which serves 62.2 million customers.
    >>>
    >>>So much for claims here to the contrary.

    >>
    >>If Verizon hasn't overtaken Cingular yet, it soon will, given its
    >>greater number of adds each quarter and its lower Churn rate.

    >
    > Perhaps. Perhaps not. Only time will tell.
    > Not that it really matters except to those few with an agenda.
    >
    > --
    > Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    > John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>





  8. #8
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    Kevin Weaver wrote:
    > Now I've seen and heard it all. Was it not you that posted the Cingular
    > has more customers then Verizon when the news broke out the 1st time ?


    As has been explained, Verizon Wireless now has more customers than
    "wireless from AT&T" or whatever they're calling themselves.

    See "http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=49296&src=site-marq"

    AT&T leases out space on their wireless network to other companies, and
    they try to count the customers of the other companies as their own
    subscribers, but analysts reject this sleight of hand.

    All of this doesn't even matter all that much--unless your main job in
    life is to shill for Cingular/AT&T.


    [Copied to alt.cellular.attws. Please post all alt.cellular.cingular
    non-spam posts to alt.cellular.attws as well. The Cingular name is going
    away, and alt.cellular.attws is the proper venue for posts regarding
    AT&T's Wireless Service.]



  9. #9
    Todd Allcock
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    At 06 Jun 2007 00:42:03 -0700 SMS wrote:

    > As has been explained, Verizon Wireless now has more customers than
    > "wireless from AT&T" or whatever they're calling themselves.


    More retail customers, yes.


    > AT&T leases out space on their wireless network to other companies,


    Companies that buy or lease lines from AT&T, by definition, are
    "customers."

    > and they try to count the customers of the other companies as their
    > own subscribers, but analysts reject this sleight of hand.



    Depends on the analysts, I suppose. RCR Wireless News, an industry trade
    publication doesn't seem to have any problems referring to AT&T as the
    largest carrier, although it did report Verizon's recent retail lead.

    If Ford sells 10,000 to Hertz, Ford counts those cars as sales, even
    though Hertz will rent, then eventually resell them. If Cingular sells
    10000 lines to prepaid resellers like Ztar (Speakout), similarly, they've
    sold 10,000 lines. Verizion has a much smaller number of wholesale sales
    than AT&T (or Sprint) because they've largely avoided that market by
    choice.

    > All of this doesn't even matter all that much...


    True- Verizon will likely overtake Cingular in total number of customers
    (by ANY definition) by year end.




  10. #10
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    Todd Allcock wrote:
    > At 06 Jun 2007 00:42:03 -0700 SMS wrote:
    >
    >> As has been explained, Verizon Wireless now has more customers than
    >> "wireless from AT&T" or whatever they're calling themselves.

    >
    > More retail customers, yes.


    Right, more customers that signed up with Verizon Wireless than signed
    up with Cingular/AT&T Wireless.

    > If Ford sells 10,000 to Hertz, Ford counts those cars as sales, even
    > though Hertz will rent, then eventually resell them.


    That's not a good analogy. Hertz is a corporate fleet customer, but they
    are buying essentially the same product as the retail customer.

    A good analogy would be if GM lets Hertz lease the GM factory to produce
    a different vehicle, for sale only to Hertz.

    What AT&T could say is "we have the most wireless users using our
    wireless network."



  11. #11
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:42:03 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Kevin Weaver wrote:
    >> Now I've seen and heard it all. Was it not you that posted the Cingular
    >> has more customers then Verizon when the news broke out the 1st time ?

    >
    >As has been explained, Verizon Wireless now has more customers than
    >"wireless from AT&T" or whatever they're calling themselves.


    Nope: <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>

    Verizon's wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    which serves 62.2 million customers.

    Not that it matters except to those with an anti-Cingular/AT&T Wireless
    agenda.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  12. #12
    Kevin Weaver
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    Wrong again. I'm a Cingular user.
    You being wrong is nothing new.


    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:42:03 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    > wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>Kevin Weaver wrote:
    >>> Now I've seen and heard it all. Was it not you that posted the Cingular
    >>> has more customers then Verizon when the news broke out the 1st time ?

    >>
    >>As has been explained, Verizon Wireless now has more customers than
    >>"wireless from AT&T" or whatever they're calling themselves.

    >
    > Nope: <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>
    >
    > Verizon's wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    > Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    > quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    > quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    > which serves 62.2 million customers.
    >
    > Not that it matters except to those with an anti-Cingular/AT&T Wireless
    > agenda.
    >
    > --
    > Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    > John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>





  13. #13

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:48:15 GMT, John Navas
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:42:03 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    >wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>Kevin Weaver wrote:
    >>> Now I've seen and heard it all. Was it not you that posted the Cingular
    >>> has more customers then Verizon when the news broke out the 1st time ?

    >>
    >>As has been explained, Verizon Wireless now has more customers than
    >>"wireless from AT&T" or whatever they're calling themselves.

    >
    >Nope: <http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/technology/01verizon.html>
    >
    > Verizon's wireless business, which Verizon owns jointly with the
    > Vodafone Group, reported revenue of $10.3 billion in the first
    > quarter. The unit added 1.7 million wireless subscribers, ending the
    > quarter with 60.7 million subscribers, second only to AT&T Wireless,
    > which serves 62.2 million customers.
    >


    Apples and Oranges.

    Verizon = Subscribers

    AT&T = Customers

    When subscribers are counted for each Verizon comes out on top.



    >Not that it matters except to those with an anti-Cingular/AT&T Wireless
    >agenda.





  14. #14
    Mij Adyaw
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    That means that Stinkular is now "number two" behind verizon. It just goes
    to proove that CDMA is better.





  15. #15
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Verizon retakes US wireless subscriber lead from AT&T

    [email protected] wrote:

    > AT&T = Customers
    >
    > When subscribers are counted for each Verizon comes out on top.


    Verizon has more subscribers than "Wireless from AT&T" while AT&T has
    more users of its network by virtue of them leasing capacity to more
    MVNOs than Verizon.

    A good metric is how many subscribers can call each other using mobile
    to mobile minutes. The MVNO customers of AT&T don't get to call actual
    AT&T subscribers.

    Not sure why Navas is so upset about Verizon passing AT&T in
    subscribers, it really doesn't mean anything other than bragging rights
    in advertising.



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