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  1. #1
    John Navas
    Guest
    Wireless providers' switch from analog to digital leaves many OnStar,
    security customers disconnected
    <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

    The network that launched the U.S. wireless industry with brick-size
    -- and brick-heavy -- cellphones 24 years ago will switch off in most
    of the country next year, leaving a surprising number of users in the
    lurch.

    ...

    Verizon Wireless, AT&T Inc. and Alltel Corp. are the largest carriers
    that still have analog networks. Alltel will take more time than
    Verizon and AT&T to close its network, shutting down in three stages
    ending in September.

    --
    Best regards,
    John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com>

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope]
    "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
    than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain]



    See More: NEWS: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)




  2. #2
    Joel Koltner
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>


    Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
    units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
    it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
    lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
    Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
    of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
    quite slim.





  3. #3
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    Joel Koltner wrote:
    > "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

    >
    > Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
    > units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
    > it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
    > lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
    > Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
    > of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
    > quite slim.


    Actually most rural AMPS (Analog) networks will remain operational even
    after the FCC AMPS mandate expires. The operators of the rural networks
    have already stated this. They have no incentive to drastically reduce
    their coverage.

    The large carriers that have AMPS networks (AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel)
    will turn off most or all of their AMPS networks soon after the mandate
    expires. However per FCC rules, they are forbidden from turning off AMPS
    in areas where doing so will result in any loss of wireless coverage.

    According to the FCC website, "Cellular licensees that intend to
    discontinue analog service after February 18, 2008 are permitted, in
    lieu of making a revised Cellular Geographic Service Area (CGSA)
    showing, to file a certification stating that the discontinuance of
    analog service will not result in any loss of wireless coverage
    throughout an affected CGSA."

    If the FCC actually enforces their own rules (doubtful under a
    Republican administration), this virtually guarantees that AMPS service
    will remain available in areas where the digital coverage is less than
    the AMPS coverage. Personally I could tell the FCC many areas even in
    the San Francisco Bay Area where there is only AMPS coverage, but
    somehow I think that the FCC has no intention of enforcing its own
    rules. Unless someone is out there documenting all the AMPS only areas,
    how would anyone challenge the carriers with not abiding by the FCC
    rules? The carrier would simply have to say, 'no, we never had any
    coverage in xyz area.'

    Operators of small rural cellular networks have already indicated that
    their AMPS networks will remain intact "for the foreseeable future."
    This is because it would cost them a considerable amount of money to
    install enough digital towers to duplicate their analog coverage.

    The real question is whether Verizon, AT&T, and Alltel will comply with
    the FCC rules and keep AMPS up and running in areas where there are not
    sufficient digital towers to provide equivalent coverage to AMPS. It's
    possible that the urban carriers that also have AMPS networks in rural
    settings will just quietly leave the rural portions turned on in order
    to remain in compliance with the FCC rules, but they understandably
    don't want to get into the position of saying which AMPS areas will
    remain on and which will be turned off.



  4. #4
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:29:08 -0800, SMS ??? ?
    <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >Joel Koltner wrote:
    >> "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

    >>
    >> Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
    >> units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
    >> it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
    >> lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
    >> Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
    >> of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
    >> quite slim.

    >
    >Actually most rural AMPS (Analog) networks will remain operational even
    >after the FCC AMPS mandate expires. The operators of the rural networks
    >have already stated this. They have no incentive to drastically reduce
    >their coverage.


    False. They'll reuse the spectrum for far more profitable digital
    roaming.

    >The large carriers that have AMPS networks (AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel)
    >will turn off most or all of their AMPS networks soon after the mandate
    >expires. However per FCC rules, they are forbidden from turning off AMPS
    >in areas where doing so will result in any loss of wireless coverage.


    False. There is no such requirement.

    >According to the FCC website, "Cellular licensees that intend to
    >discontinue analog service after February 18, 2008 are permitted, in
    >lieu of making a revised Cellular Geographic Service Area (CGSA)
    >showing, to file a certification stating that the discontinuance of
    >analog service will not result in any loss of wireless coverage
    >throughout an affected CGSA."


    The key word there is "permitted".

    >If the FCC actually enforces their own rules (doubtful under a
    >Republican administration), this virtually guarantees that AMPS service
    >will remain available in areas where the digital coverage is less than
    >the AMPS coverage. Personally I could tell the FCC many areas even in
    >the San Francisco Bay Area where there is only AMPS coverage,


    False. As shown by carriers own coverage maps.

    >Operators of small rural cellular networks have already indicated that
    >their AMPS networks will remain intact "for the foreseeable future."
    >This is because it would cost them a considerable amount of money to
    >install enough digital towers to duplicate their analog coverage.


    False. Fake quote made up by you.

    >The real question is whether Verizon, AT&T, and Alltel will comply with
    >the FCC rules and keep AMPS up and running in areas where there are not
    >sufficient digital towers to provide equivalent coverage to AMPS. ...


    There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    be shut down completely.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  5. #5
    DTC
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    John Navas wrote:
    > There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    > be shut down completely.


    Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.

    BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    few years.




  6. #6
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    DTC wrote:

    > Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    > in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    > to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    > will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.


    In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
    is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
    down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
    mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
    being shut down.

    > BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    > few years.


    The rural carriers appear to have installed all the towers that they're
    going to install. According to the statements from the rural carriers,
    AMPS is going to be around for a very long time. That's good news for
    people like me that often travel into those areas.



  7. #7
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:48:56 -0800, SMS ??? ?
    <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >DTC wrote:


    >> BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    >> few years.

    >
    >The rural carriers appear to have installed all the towers that they're
    >going to install. According to the statements from the rural carriers,
    >AMPS is going to be around for a very long time. That's good news for
    >people like me that often travel into those areas.


    In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  8. #8
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    DTC wrote:
    > John Navas wrote:
    >> There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    >> be shut down completely.

    >
    > Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    > in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    > to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    > will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.
    >
    > BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    > few years.


    I added the facts about the end of the AMPS mandate to
    "http://prepaiduswireless.com/". With a hyperlink near the top of the
    page to that section.



  9. #9
    Jud Hardcastle
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > John Navas wrote:
    > > There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    > > be shut down completely.

    >
    > Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    > in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    > to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    > will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.
    >
    > BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    > few years.
    >
    >

    Static because Verizon doesn't own/operate many AMPS towers in rural
    Texas--they're roaming on other carrier's systems MOST of which are
    ALREADY digital--but GSM/TDMA not CDMA. AMPS (and TDMA) *can* be turned
    off by those carriers on the shutdown date--no need to "turn up" digital
    because it's already done. The rural carrier's MAY add a few more towers
    to cover areas where high-power AMPS reached and digital doesn't but
    they're under no obligation to ADD CDMA. Verizon has been taking
    advantage of analog roaming to tout their "more coverage" than ATT--and
    correctly for those with dual mode phones (although no larger than my
    GAIT phone/plan)--but the advantage is about to end.
    --
    Jud
    Dallas TX USA



  10. #10
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    Jud Hardcastle wrote:

    > Static because Verizon doesn't own/operate many AMPS towers in rural
    > Texas--they're roaming on other carrier's systems MOST of which are
    > ALREADY digital--but GSM/TDMA not CDMA. AMPS (and TDMA) *can* be turned
    > off by those carriers on the shutdown date--no need to "turn up" digital
    > because it's already done.


    As long as the GSM coverage is equal to the AMPS coverage that they are
    turning off, then this is true. However in many areas of the country,
    including the area I live in, there are large areas that presently have
    AT&T AMPS coverage but that lack AT&T GSM coverage. Similarly, there are
    areas that have Verizon AMPS coverage but that lack Verizon CDMA
    coverage (I suspect that the same is true for Alltel, though I have no
    personal experience with this). If the carriers are complying with the
    FCC rules, then they'll have to leave some portions of their AMPS
    network up and running until they can install a lot more digital towers.

    Fortunately, many of the small carriers moved from TDMA/AMPS to
    CDMA/AMPS, which helped coverage for both Verizon subscribers, and those
    Cingular and AT&T subscribers with GAIT phones. They chose CDMA because
    it has greater range per tower than GSM (yeah, I know about the one
    person in the U.S. that insists that he has Extended GSM coverage!).

    > The rural carrier's MAY add a few more towers
    > to cover areas where high-power AMPS reached and digital doesn't but
    > they're under no obligation to ADD CDMA.


    This is true. Fortunately many of these rural carriers moved to CDMA
    because they wanted to keep AMPS coverage. They chose CDMA because of
    the lack of GSM/AMPS handsets. In my area, Golden State Cellular is a
    prime example. Unfortunately, the rural carriers that were AT&T
    affiliates mostly went the route of AT&T and went to GSM while keeping
    TDMA/AMPS up for the time being.

    > Verizon has been taking
    > advantage of analog roaming to tout their "more coverage" than ATT--and
    > correctly for those with dual mode phones (although no larger than my
    > GAIT phone/plan)--but the advantage is about to end.


    Unlikely to end any time soon. All the news reports about the AMPS
    mandate ending always have statements by the rural carriers that they
    will keep AMPS operating for the foreseeable future (they really have no
    choice but to do so both for legal and practical reasons). Similarly, if
    AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel intend to comply with the FCC rules, then they
    will have to leave their fringe area AMPS network up, even if they don't
    want to talk about doing so.

    Will the FCC enforce their own rules is the real question. If they
    don't, I'll lose coverage in the East Bay Hills, western Marin county,
    much of the southern San Mateo coast and northern Santa Cruz coast, much
    of the Santa Cruz mountains, much of the north coast area south of
    Crescent City, much of San Benito County (down to the Pinnacles), much
    of the Florida Everglades, the list goes on and on.

    Is the FCC going to accept 100% overlay of existing AMPS towers with
    digital, even though this means much less coverage?

    In any case, the bottom line is that the original poster is incorrect.
    Portions of the AMPS system will be shut down in February, but much of
    it will remain operational if you believe what the rural carriers are
    all saying.



  11. #11
    clifto
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    SMS ???? ? wrote:
    > In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
    > is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
    > down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
    > mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
    > being shut down.


    Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut down
    AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it disabled.

    --
    Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
    Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
    as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.



  12. #12
    Tinman
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    SMS ???. ? wrote:
    > Jud Hardcastle wrote:
    >> Verizon has been taking
    >> advantage of analog roaming to tout their "more coverage" than
    >> ATT--and correctly for those with dual mode phones (although no
    >> larger than my GAIT phone/plan)--but the advantage is about to end.

    >
    > Unlikely to end any time soon. All the news reports about the AMPS
    > mandate ending always have statements by the rural carriers that they
    > will keep AMPS operating for the foreseeable future (they really have
    > no choice but to do so both for legal and practical reasons).
    > Similarly, if AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel intend to comply with the FCC
    > rules, then they will have to leave their fringe area AMPS network
    > up, even if they don't want to talk about doing so.
    >


    News flash: AT&T has already stated their intentions, and in fact began
    shutting down AMPS/TDMA back in June.

    "http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iiczkwxq1jK5IKXGCsNQkWgOHmQAD8TM1PKG0"

    "Verizon Wireless, AT&T Inc. and Alltel Corp. are the largest carriers that
    still have analog networks. Alltel will take more time than Verizon and AT&T
    to close its network, shutting down in three stages ending in September.
    Each carrier will keep its portion of the newly available spectrum, and will
    use it to boost their digital services."

    "The larger carriers say their digital buildout will cover any gaps left by
    the demise of analog service."


    According to the above the carrier that will take the longest to shut down
    AMPS, Alltel, will be finished by September. The chicken little-like comment
    about fringe areas is wishful thinking.

    Heck, even Canadian carriers--who have not already done so--intend on
    shutting down AMPS come February to be inline with the US. Rogers shut it
    down back in May.

    The world doesn't revolve around the less than 1% of users who still use
    AMPS.


    >
    > In any case, the bottom line is that the original poster is incorrect.
    > Portions of the AMPS system will be shut down in February, but much of
    > it will remain operational if you believe what the rural carriers are
    > all saying.


    In fact it's just the opposite: most of AMPS will be shut down with only a
    handful of rural operators--statistically insignificant--that cling to AMPS.
    From the same link:
    "A few rural cellular providers may keep their networks up. Plateau
    Wireless, which provides service in eastern New Mexico and western Texas,
    will maintain its analog network alongside a digital one "for the
    foreseeable future," according to Chief Executive Tom Phelps."

    Whether you choose to accept it or not AMPS is going away sooner rather than
    later. That doesn't mean by February 19 it will be completely gone. But a
    year from now it will be in its death throes. Before you go off on some
    rural tangent, rural areas don't run the country. The Amish still ride in
    buggies but that doesn't mean we build interstate highways for them.


    --
    Mike





  13. #13
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.
    >
    > --
    > Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    > John Navas

    <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>
    >
    >


    That's odd. There were ONLY 11 responses about AMPS sunset sent to the
    FCC. The big guns Verizon, Alltel, ATT/Cingular, of course, want it off
    to install more digital bandwidth in the cities. But, the comments from
    the rural carriers that responded say differently from your conjecture.

    Plateau Cellular, a rural carrier in Texas and New Mexico gives some
    insight into the situation in the countryside:

    "1. Current State of AMPS
    Plateau currently provides AMPS service to approximately 58% of its
    customer base.
    Approximately 2.8% of such customers use Plateaus analog service
    utilizing bag phones and invehicle
    installations of mobile radios. Specifically, rural farmers utilize AMPS
    bag phones to
    control and monitor center pivot agricultural irrigation systems for
    their farm operations.2 This
    service provides farmers the ability to utilize cellular service at
    greater distances with the higher
    power bag phones compared to a digital handset. It is important for the
    farmers and the farming
    industry that valuable resources such as water, energy, money and time
    are conserved. These
    conservation efforts are promulgated through the use of AMPS controlled
    irrigation systems. In
    addition, Plateau provides roaming service to subscribers of its roaming
    partners whose home
    markets are CDMA. Since there are areas within Plateaus market where no
    CDMA coverage
    exists, those subscribers who have dual mode phones will revert to analog
    service. These
    subscribers use approximately 3.7% of all analog roaming minutes. As 58%
    of Plateaus
    customer base continues to use analog service, Plateau believes such
    service is critical to its
    customers in the rural areas in which it operates and therefore serves
    the public interest.
    While the percentage of bag phone and in-vehicle mobile radio users may
    seem relatively
    small, it represents several hundred customers. Similarly, though the
    percentage of roaming
    minutes used by Plateaus CDMA roaming partners subscribers is small in
    relation to the overall
    magnitude of Plateaus roaming service, Plateau provides several hundred
    thousand minutes per
    month on analog to the roaming public. This is significant for those
    portions of this rural market
    where there is no CDMA coverage or no alternative roaming partners
    available, and it is an
    important factor for nationwide ubiquitous coverage since, without
    Plateaus analog service,
    there would be no roaming alternative."

    With the farming community using AMPS to control irrigation and to have
    RELIABLE AMPS comms across vast areas of the countryside, like in Plateau
    country, I'll bet the old bagphone will still connect to a stable, long-
    range little carrier way past 2010, when your digital only SELLphones are
    all reading NO SERVICE 300 ft from the 500' AMPS towers in the boondocks.

    This is all a scam about maximizing profits in LARGE CITIES with traffic
    overload. Out in Farmtown, USA, traffic isn't a problem, RANGE is. AMPS
    still provides range no 150mw digital toyphone can dream of on a Texas
    ranch. You go try to pull that AMPS from under the dash in the truck on
    that ranch.....you'll find out how much buckshot is in a 12 guage shell!

    Larry
    --
    I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
    My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
    Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?



  14. #14
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    clifto <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > SMS ???? ? wrote:
    >> In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where
    >> there is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers
    >> really do shut down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the
    >> FCC rules that mandate that digital coverage be available in the
    >> areas where AMPS is being shut down.

    >
    > Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut
    > down AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it
    > disabled.
    >


    Nope, that's just not true, either. There's an FCC form they must
    complete telling the FCC cutting off AMPS won't effect their customers,
    which would be a lie in rural America, of course. Only 11 responses, so
    far. Only the city big guns are cutting off AMPS. The rural carriers
    are telling FCC a different line than you're getting from the big gun
    fanboys here.

    Read what they say....well, only the part the big boys want you to see,
    anyways.....on:
    http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?
    job=cellular_reports&id=cellular

    Notice how blacked out Verizon's responses are. What are they hiding,
    the truth again??

    Rural carriers wanted nothing to do with digital and its short range in
    the first place. What the hell good is a cellphone that only goes 2
    miles on the open range in Texas? How stupid....


    Larry
    --
    I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
    My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
    Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?



  15. #15
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    "Tinman" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Whether you choose to accept it or not AMPS is going away sooner
    > rather than later. That doesn't mean by February 19 it will be
    > completely gone. But a year from now it will be in its death throes.
    > Before you go off on some rural tangent, rural areas don't run the
    > country. The Amish still ride in buggies but that doesn't mean we
    > build interstate highways for them.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Mike
    >


    Mike, I'm curious. What benefit do you think Mike, himself, is going to
    realize by this AMPS shutdown, that makes you so happy? Do you think your
    service is going to take some leap or be increased if AMPS is shutdown for
    those who use it?

    Why are you so hyped up about its demise?

    Larry
    --
    I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
    My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
    Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?



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