Nov 24: Cell phone # portability

In article <[email protected]>,
Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote:

> >Tell me how you think that there is going to be more comeptition.
>
> people can leave to another carrier WITH their number, someone will
> desperately want these people as customers.

One thing you'll probably see at some point is "we'll pay your fees to
cancel your existing contract (up to $X)".

---

› See More: Nov 24: Cell phone # portability

>no cell company is making money? bull****! ALL corporations make money
>and find more ways to make more money from you every day, now that
>people can leave with their numbers the companies have more to lose
>than gain IMO, but im just a consumer.

Your opinion is important!

But, being in the industry and watching the monies expended, I can tell you
that they really are not making money. I am no accounting but rest assured, the
market is already extremely competitive and although there is going to be some
churn, it won't make a hill of beans in the long run.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> >If wireless carriers were truly sh---ing bricks over WNP, wouldn't
> >they be offering the killer deals NOW to lock both their prospective
> >and existing customers into contracts so their hands would be tied
> >come next month?
>
> when they see people jumping from them like rats off a sinking ship
> they will have to do something or go broke.

The industry anylists already have estimated that about 25% more
people will switch services next year vs. this year. Hardly "rats off
a sinking ship."
I think many people on this NG overestimate the number of folks who
intend to switch due to WNP. The fact is, most people are more than
willing to leave a cell provider they don't like the second their
contract is up, even if it means switching numbers.

> >Yes they will- Cingular's policy is to allow rate plan changes during your
> >contract. The only "catch" is that if you select a promotional plan that
> >requires a two-year committment, you're required to extend your
> >contract to the two-year requirement.
>
> and any new plans come nov 24 will ALL BE promotional requiring a 2
> year contract/extention....

Of course.

> with number portability might come 0 year
> contracts, like your home phone, pay month by month no stupid multi
> year contract, wtf is with that anyways.

Huh? If anything, WNP (slightly) increases the need for contracts-
there is even less of an incentive to remain with a carrier if you can
"test" each one without changing numbers.

For all of your ranting against Cingular, they are one of the few
wireless carriers who do NOT require contracts! Most, if not all
Cingular plans can be used month-to-month IF you supply your own
compatible phone, or buy one from Cingular at full price. Pretty fair
of them, IMHO.

Unless, of course, you are suggesting that after 11/24 wireless
carriers will start giving away phones AND stop requiring contracts on
them as well. If that's what you're implying, it means you understand
the wireless industry even less than I thought you did, and trust me-
THAT'S pretty difficult to believe!

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Todd Allcock) wrote:

> For all of your ranting against Cingular, they are one of the few
> wireless carriers who do NOT require contracts!

Huh?

All carriers have no-contract options, and all carriers have contract
options--including Cingular.

Todd Allcock wrote:
> Unless, of course, you are suggesting that after 11/24 wireless
> carriers will start giving away phones AND stop requiring contracts on
> them as well. If that's what you're implying, it means you understand
> the wireless industry even less than I thought you did, and trust me-
> THAT'S pretty difficult to believe!

They already give away phone (with one or two year contract), but
they might offer higher end phones at less cost.

At any rate, a newspaper article quoted a wireless exec say they will
concentrate on winning back users that left them. Yeah, right...how
are they going to have someone break a contract they just signed with
a competing carrier? Pay for their ETF to win them back?

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:08:53 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Todd Allcock) wrote:
>
>> For all of your ranting against Cingular, they are one of the few
>> wireless carriers who do NOT require contracts!
>
>Huh?
>
>All carriers have no-contract options, and all carriers have contract
>options--including Cingular.

I guess you haven't checked out carriers lately. The only major US
carrier that does not require a contract is cingular. All the others
do.
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:08:53 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Todd Allcock) wrote:
>
>> For all of your ranting against Cingular, they are one of the few
>> wireless carriers who do NOT require contracts!
>
>Huh?
>
>All carriers have no-contract options, and all carriers have contract
>options--including Cingular.

but the thing with that is they probably require you to buy a $500
phone to get that, u have already have a cingular compatible phone? oh
sorry we cant hook that type of phone up without a contract...u know
how these people work, plus the plans are outrageously high if your
not in a contract...

i'm talking about month to month paying whatever u are paying now...u
have a $45 a month plan with a 2 year contract? they should make it
the same, drop the contract. the only gain they have by a contract is
forcing you to stay with them for X amount of time, if u want to leave
you pay them MORE money for not staying with them.

the customer gains nothing by a contract, it is all one sided

im hoping when 11/24 goes into effect it will be just like that, pay
by month and keep your number so if your tired of SINgulars **** you
can go elsewhere and people would be none the wiser.

and as for the guy who said other carriers will come out with a "we
will pay for cancellation fees" promo...it COULD happen but when
cancellation charges are $150 it probably wont happen, but that would
be one killer deal! then again if you cancel and pay the cancel
charges they probably still report it to an agency, if not cause u
cancelled then to "get you back"

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:55:54 -0800, Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote:

>they probably still report it to an agency, if not cause u
>cancelled then to "get you back"

There's nothing for them to report that's bad. If they pay their
bills and they pay the ETF they are obeying the contract terms and it
should not affect their credit at all. Do you know otherwise?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To send an email reply send to
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Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> >All carriers have no-contract options, and all carriers have contract
> >options--including Cingular.
>
> but the thing with that is they probably require you to buy a $500
> phone to get that,

No, without a contract, phones start around $200.

> u have already have a cingular compatible phone? oh
> sorry we cant hook that type of phone up without a contract...

No, if you have a phone compatible with Cingular they'll sign you up
month-to-month.

> u know how these people work,

Yes, I do. YOU, apparently do not. I used to be an independent
Cingular dealer. We did lots of no-contract deals, and we used to
stock used and refurb phones to minimize the startup costs.

> plus the plans are outrageously high if your not in a contract...

No, they're the same plans!

> i'm talking about month to month paying whatever u are paying now...u
> have a $45 a month plan with a 2 year contract? they should make it
> the same, drop the contract.

THEY DO!

> the only gain they have by a contract is forcing you to stay with them
> for X amount of time, if u want to leave
> you pay them MORE money for not staying with them.

The contract is a two-way street- they get you to stay for 1 or 2
years in return for a generous discount on a phone.

> the customer gains nothing by a contract, it is all one sided

No, the customer gets a $200-300 phone for free, in return for
committing to a year or two of service.

Cingular uses the contract for the purpose cellphone contracts were
originally intended for- a quid pro quo- you get a discount on a phone
in return for a service committment. No more, no less.

> im hoping when 11/24 goes into effect it will be just like that, pay
> by month and keep your number so if your tired of SINgulars **** you
> can go elsewhere and people would be none the wiser.

I hope on 11/24 cell carriers will give free lap dances with new lines
of service. But guess what; neither of us are going to get what we
hope for come November.

> and as for the guy who said other carriers will come out with a "we
> will pay for cancellation fees" promo...it COULD happen but when
> cancellation charges are $150 it probably wont happen, but that would
> be one killer deal! then again if you cancel and pay the cancel
> charges they probably still report it to an agency, if not cause u
> cancelled then to "get you back"

Keep dreaming, Steve. Novermer 24th is going to be just like November
23rd, except we'll all be one day older.

>No, without a contract, phones start around $200.

ok, fair.

>> plus the plans are outrageously high if your not in a contract...
>
>No, they're the same plans!

then how in the **** do they recoup the cost of the "free phone" if
they charge the same amount of money for the same plan if you bring in
your own phone? they get their money back through the plan, and if you
have your own phone and they are charging you the same as someone else
they are recouping the cost of a phone from how good of a plan is it
REALLY ? nice.

>
>> i'm talking about month to month paying whatever u are paying now...u
>> have a $45 a month plan with a 2 year contract? they should make it
>> the same, drop the contract.
>
>THEY DO!

refer to above.

>
>> the only gain they have by a contract is forcing you to stay with them
>> for X amount of time, if u want to leave
>> you pay them MORE money for not staying with them.
>
>The contract is a two-way street- they get you to stay for 1 or 2
>years in return for a generous discount on a phone.

not true, the carrier recoups the cost of the phone through the plan,
SINgular told me this on the phone with that whole upgrade fiasco.
there is no discount, the "free" phone is not free, you pay for it
little by little through your plan, that is the ONLY way they can
recoup the cost of the phone obviously.

>
>> the customer gains nothing by a contract, it is all one sided
>
>No, the customer gets a $200-300 phone for free, in return for
>committing to a year or two of service.

once again it is NOT FREE, the carrier recoups the cost of the phone
through the plan, it IS INDEED a one sided agreement.

>
>Cingular uses the contract for the purpose cellphone contracts were
>originally intended for- a quid pro quo- you get a discount on a phone
>in return for a service committment. No more, no less.

there is no discount to be had if your paying full price for it over
time now is there? maybe the "little by little" is the
discount....not having to pay for it up front....yeah thats it.


>
>> im hoping when 11/24 goes into effect it will be just like that, pay
>> by month and keep your number so if your tired of SINgulars **** you
>> can go elsewhere and people would be none the wiser.
>
>I hope on 11/24 cell carriers will give free lap dances with new lines
>of service. But guess what; neither of us are going to get what we
>hope for come November.

could happen, strippers do anything for a few bucks and in a bulk
lapdance deal they could get them for cheap.


>
>> and as for the guy who said other carriers will come out with a "we
>> will pay for cancellation fees" promo...it COULD happen but when
>> cancellation charges are $150 it probably wont happen, but that would
>> be one killer deal! then again if you cancel and pay the cancel
>> charges they probably still report it to an agency, if not cause u
>> cancelled then to "get you back"
>
>Keep dreaming, Steve. Novermer 24th is going to be just like November
>23rd, except we'll all be one day older.

we will see.....we will see....

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:45:49 -0800, Group Special Mobile
<look@signature_to.reply> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:55:54 -0800, Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>they probably still report it to an agency, if not cause u
>>cancelled then to "get you back"
>
>There's nothing for them to report that's bad. If they pay their
>bills and they pay the ETF they are obeying the contract terms and it
>should not affect their credit at all. Do you know otherwise?

i know that if a company does report you to an agency there is diddly
****ing squat u can do about it. look at those people who get their
identities stolen, some ****wad runs their credit into the
ground....this happened to a 68 year old woman, and it was all proven
in court and what happened? nothing, she still has all this **** on
her credit because the egencies will not remove it. i would not put it
past a company like SINgular to do this to someone, then if it was to
happen that they were taken to court etc all they have to say is
"oops..." and all is well.

Steve Vai wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:45:49 -0800, Group Special Mobile
> <look@signature_to.reply> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:55:54 -0800, Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>they probably still report it to an agency, if not cause u
>>>cancelled then to "get you back"
>>
>>There's nothing for them to report that's bad. If they pay their
>>bills and they pay the ETF they are obeying the contract terms and it
>>should not affect their credit at all. Do you know otherwise?
>
> i know that if a company does report you to an agency there is diddly
> ****ing squat u can do about it. look at those people who get their
> identities stolen, some ****wad runs their credit into the
> ground....this happened to a 68 year old woman, and it was all proven
> in court and what happened? nothing, she still has all this **** on
> her credit because the egencies will not remove it. i would not put it
> past a company like SINgular to do this to someone, then if it was to
> happen that they were taken to court etc all they have to say is
> "oops..." and all is well.

Except that this situation is a violation of the Fair Credit Reporting Act,
and heavy fines would follow for any cellular company stupid enough to
report bad credit for a zero balance account. Even breaking the contract
and paying the ETF would not be a reportable situation to any credit
bureau.

You have to remember the advantages of having no contract: you can
cancel at any time without any early termination fees. Some states
require that early termination fees be prorated, as a cell phone company
will not lose $200.00 if a customer cancels one month early, but a
company may lose close to $200.00 if a customer cancels 22 months early.
I've heard rumours that California might require early terminations
fees to be calculated based on the phone and plan you choose, and after
that still be prorated.

AD

Most states the term fee is flat. In FL the fee is prorated.
Most people don't know that when a cell company take a new customer
that is an investment. It cost them about $300 - 500 to take on a
customer. So that is why a contract is used. Guaranteed funds coming
in.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:12:17 -0600, About Dakota
<[email protected]> wrote:

>You have to remember the advantages of having no contract: you can
>cancel at any time without any early termination fees. Some states
>require that early termination fees be prorated, as a cell phone company
>will not lose $200.00 if a customer cancels one month early, but a
>company may lose close to $200.00 if a customer cancels 22 months early.
> I've heard rumours that California might require early terminations
>fees to be calculated based on the phone and plan you choose, and after
>that still be prorated.
>
>AD

Steve Vai <****[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >No, without a contract, phones start around $200.
>
> ok, fair.
>
> >> plus the plans are outrageously high if your not in a contract...
> >
> >No, they're the same plans!
>
> then how in the **** do they recoup the cost of the "free phone" if
> they charge the same amount of money for the same plan if you bring in
> your own phone? they get their money back through the plan, and if you
> have your own phone and they are charging you the same as someone else
> they are recouping the cost of a phone from how good of a plan is it
> REALLY ? nice.


Oh, I finally get where you're coming from- you mean the non-contract
folks should pay less since there's no subsidy involved.

I agree- to a point. While there is no subsidy involved, there is
also no guarantee the customer will stick around. Think of the
subsidy as a "perk" for committed customers, much like a magazine
subscription costs less per issue than buying it on a newsstand.

I guess my point is that at least Cingular allows customers to signup
month-to-month without any penalty, unlike for example, Sprint PCS,
who allowed month-to-month customers but charged them an EXTRA
$10/month for the "no-contract" plan. (I don't know if they still do
this, but they did at one time.)

> >> i'm talking about month to month paying whatever u are paying now...u
> >> have a $45 a month plan with a 2 year contract? they should make it
> >> the same, drop the contract.
> >
> >THEY DO!
>
> refer to above.

If I understand what you wrote- "month to month paying whatever u
(sic) are paying now" then I stand by my statement. Cingular doesn't
penalize MTM customers with HIGHER rates. They also don't reward them
with lower rates.

> >The contract is a two-way street- they get you to stay for 1 or 2
> >years in return for a generous discount on a phone.
>
> not true, the carrier recoups the cost of the phone through the plan,
> SINgular told me this on the phone with that whole upgrade fiasco.

Of course, where'd you THINK they money came from?

> there is no discount, the "free" phone is not free, you pay for it
> little by little through your plan, that is the ONLY way they can
> recoup the cost of the phone obviously.

Right, a little bit at a time through your monthly service fees.

My God, Steve, I think you finally figured out how cellular works!

> >No, the customer gets a $200-300 phone for free, in return for
> >committing to a year or two of service.
>
> once again it is NOT FREE, the carrier recoups the cost of the phone
> through the plan, it IS INDEED a one sided agreement.

NOTHING is really "free"! When Dominos pizza gives you a free small
pizza with your full-priced large pizza because you used a coupon, who
paid for the free pizza? You did, with the money you spent for the
large! They just made less profit on the coupon customer, but they'll
make it up on volume, if you buy pizza twice a week using the coupons.
Similarly, the cellphone provider is willing to make less profit on
the contract customer because he's guaranteed to buy at least 12 or 24
months of service. The non-contract customer might buy only one or
two months!

Competition in the marketplace dictates the monthly service fees
("what the market will bear"), not the amount of subsidy. It actually
works backwards from what you think- it's not like a carrier says "we
COULD sell 200 anytime minutes for $19.99 a month, plus $10.00 for the
monthly subsidy= a $29.99 rate plan." In reality, it's more like
"crap- T-Mobile is giving 300 minutes for $29.99. We need to match
it, despite the fact that only leaves us $10 profit per month. Since
we subsidize a phone $200, our break-even point will now be 20-months
instead of 16. Maybe we need THREE-year contracts..."

> >Cingular uses the contract for the purpose cellphone contracts were
> >originally intended for- a quid pro quo- you get a discount on a phone
> >in return for a service committment. No more, no less.
>
> there is no discount to be had if your paying full price for it over
> time now is there? maybe the "little by little" is the
> discount....not having to pay for it up front....yeah thats it.

Well, if those who DON'T get a subsidy (a month-to-month customer) pay
the same rate, then it IS a discount for contract customers isn't it?

Here's some "duh" math:

Contract customer pays $0 for phone, and $40/month for service for two
years: total is ($40x24) or $960.

Non-contract customer pays $200 for phone, and $40/month for the same
rate plan and ALSO sticks around two years, because he likes the
service: total is($200+$40x24) or $1160.

Contract customer got a $200 discount- get it?