How GAIT really works...

....at least with Cingular.

Apparently they define which areas are GSM (their own or partner's
like T-Mobile) and which are not - TDMA (Cingular or their partner's)
or other, like AMPS, I suppose.

So what's frustrating is that if you are in GSM area and you don't get
GSM signal for whatever reason (i.e. dead-spot or in the building),
the phone will _never_ switch to TDMA or AMPS, although I know those
networks I available (I had my old AT&T TDMA phone with me.)

On the "micro-level", e.g. in one-city boundaries, this defeats the
whole purpose of GAIT. On the "macro-level" - when I travel far, e.g.
to the mountains to ski, the phone will switch to TDMA, I hope. I am
still to see how this is going to work, because I have GSM stretching
for quite a bit around where I live (New York City). But there are
still some dead-spots still in this area which I hoped to cover by
having a GAIT phone and a corresponding plan.

I spent l-l-lots of time with their customer and tech support people
to gather this. Finally I got one guy on the phone who was really
knowledgeable and honestly explained me the way it works...

I tried Nokia 6340i and Sony Ericsson T62u: I went to the areas where
I knew there were dead-spots for GSM coverage - three on the highway,
one on the bridge, at my friend's house and at one other place - all
within ~20 mile radius from NYC where the whole area is marked as
solid GSM... BTW there is no way to force the phone into any
particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
you wouldn't know.

Is that how it's supposed to be?

Can anybody share their experience with GAIT? With Cingular or any
other provider.

Thanks

Vido

---

› See More: How GAIT really works...

On 28 Oct 2003 18:35:19 -0800, [email protected] (Vido) wrote:

>There is no way to force the phone into any
>particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
>you wouldn't know.

With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many
NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this.

"bones boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On 28 Oct 2003 18:35:19 -0800, [email protected] (Vido) wrote:
>
> >There is no way to force the phone into any
> >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
> >you wouldn't know.
>
> With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many
> NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this.

I think you the only one who knows how.
It doesn't seem the subject is that interesting to the rest here.
Would you mind sharing, please? (Big PLEASE!!!) I really need it this. I
sacrificed a number that I had for 4 years. ..Just before I've learned about
WLNP Act... F*k. Seriously man. Can you help?

"bones boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On 28 Oct 2003 18:35:19 -0800, [email protected] (Vido) wrote:
>
> >There is no way to force the phone into any
> >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
> >you wouldn't know.
>
> With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many
> NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this.

On a T62U, dial *777* send. Menu features will be unlocked. Look for
Protocol Stack under Networks (something like that). You will be able to
choose technology type (TDMA, GSM).

Thank so much, Chip.
Can I dear to one step further and ask what the difference between
"TDMA Only" and "TDMA Persistent"?
I actually didn't have any luck while selecting either of the TDMA
modes until I checked "Ignore SID List" and "Ignore SOC List".
What are these things?

Then, when I finally got a strong TDMA signal, when I tried to call,
the network acted as if I was using not activated TDMA phone on AT&T
TDMA network, e.g. I was connected to the network but the message told
me that I have to register with AT&T…"
Any suggestions?

Lots of thanks.
Vido

"Chip" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "bones boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> > On 28 Oct 2003 18:35:19 -0800, [email protected] (Vido) wrote:
> >
> > >There is no way to force the phone into any
> > >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
> > >you wouldn't know.
> >
> > With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many
> > NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this.
>
> On a T62U, dial *777* send. Menu features will be unlocked. Look for
> Protocol Stack under Networks (something like that). You will be able to
> choose technology type (TDMA, GSM).

Thank so much, Chip.
Can I dear to one step further and ask what the difference between
"TDMA Only" and "TDMA Persistent"?
I actually didn't have any luck while selecting either of the TDMA
modes until I checked "Ignore SID List" and "Ignore SOC List".
What are these things?

Then, when I finally got a strong TDMA signal, when I tried to call,
the network acted as if I was using not activated TDMA phone on AT&T
TDMA network, e.g. I was connected to the network but the message told
me that I have to register with AT&T…"
Any suggestions?

Lots of thanks.
Vido

"Chip" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "bones boy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> > On 28 Oct 2003 18:35:19 -0800, [email protected] (Vido) wrote:
> >
> > >There is no way to force the phone into any
> > >particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
> > >you wouldn't know.
> >
> > With the T62u, you can. I'm sure, since you've crossposted to many
> > NGs, that someone will mention to you how to do this.
>
> On a T62U, dial *777* send. Menu features will be unlocked. Look for
> Protocol Stack under Networks (something like that). You will be able to
> choose technology type (TDMA, GSM).




JRW <no_addy@no_.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Vido wrote:
> > ...at least with Cingular.
> > Can anybody share their experience with GAIT? With Cingular or any
> > other provider.
>
> Vido - post this on the alt.cellular.cingular NG. Its very interesting
> what you experienced and I express the same concerns that I have.

> Then, when I finally got a strong TDMA signal, when I tried to call,
> the network acted as if I was using not activated TDMA phone on AT&T
> TDMA network, e.g. I was connected to the network but the message told
> me that I have to register with AT&T?"
> Any suggestions?
I think this is an argument against GAIT for me. If Dobson gets GSM
in our area, since we are 25 miles from the tower, we are beyond the
limit for GSM. This means that our existing TDMA coverage will
disappear with a GAIT phone, and we will be too far to have a GSM
call, unless there ever are phones that fix the range limitation of
GSM or allow you to force TDMA. It sounds like GAIT phones are only
to allow roaming in areas that have no GSM at all, not to fill in for
GSM's problems. Your best bet is to have two phones, or go back to
TDMA.

John Klug wrote:

> Your best bet is to have two phones, or go back to TDMA.

Woo Hoo...My two Nokia 5160 phones would work!

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> I think this is an argument against GAIT for me. If Dobson gets GSM
> in our area, since we are 25 miles from the tower, we are beyond the
> limit for GSM. This means that our existing TDMA coverage will
> disappear with a GAIT phone, and we will be too far to have a GSM
> call, unless there ever are phones that fix the range limitation of
> GSM or allow you to force TDMA.

From what I've seen so far with the Cingular rollout, GSM and TDMA
appear to have almost identical coverage from the same tower--if
anything GSM may go a few miles further. In any case that wouldn't be a
problem unless Dobson turned off their TDMA/AMPS coverage and there
wasn't another GSM/TDMA/AMPS carrier available WITH A ROAMING AGREEMENT.
For example, in the FEW places I've lost Cingular GSM coverage THAT ALSO
WAS COVERED BY CINGULAR TDMA/AMPS the phone just switched to TDMA and
still said Cingular--as it was supposed to do. Vido's problem is that
he expects the phone to switch to ANY carrier when it looses the GSM
signal, despite the fact that the other carrier MAY NOT HAVE A ROAMING
AGREEMENT--FOR THAT AREA.

I used to loose Cingular TDMA signal when I pulled up in front of a
nearby 7-11 store, guess the towers were just right that the various
stores blocked signal from all of them. Anyway, the TDMA/AMPS phone
would switch to ATTWS with a strong signal. BUT I still couldn't make
or receive a call--I'd get an error message--BECAUSE the roaming
agreement doesn't allow for one carrier to be used "for backup" in the
other carriers area. GAIT phones do the same thing--switch to the next
preferred mode, in my case: Cingular GSM to Cingular TDMA to "preferred
GSM" to "preferred" TDMA etc--"preferred" being the keyword since the
carrier wouldn't be "preferred" in the IRDB ***unless*** it had a valid
roaming agreement. If the IRDB doesn't cover a situation it may or may
not work. Example2: Before Cingular GSM went live in Dallas, my 6340i
would be on Cingular TDMA until I went into Home Depot and it would
switch to GSM on T-Mobile but I could still make a call. (Since then
the phone holds onto a very weak Cingular GSM signal.) No doubt the
database hadn't allowed for this unusual situation and since T-Mobile is
a preferred roamer outside of my home area...

> It sounds like GAIT phones are only
> to allow roaming in areas that have no GSM at all, not to fill in for
> GSM's problems.

No question about that. GAIT was advertised as a "transition" solution
for a carrier coverting TDMA to GSM, i.e. some areas OF THE SAME CARRIER
might be TDMA with others being GSM. It was NEVER advertised that GAIT
phones could be used to FILL IN HOLES by switching to another carrier.
It may work that way in a few cases but it mostly won't. I'm sure the
agreements could be made to allow for "backup" use but in areas like
California where Cingular has so many holes (from what people say--the
last time *I* was in Calf the phones were still AMPS!) phones would be
"roaming" onto another carrier more than they would be on their own
system--the roaming rates would have to be increased for the entire plan
to make that work. Weren't roaming rates variable years ago? Perhaps
they should be variable or at least one rate for "backup" coverage
inside your "home" area and another rate (or included in the plan) for
everywhere else?

--
Jud
Dallas TX USA

Could power cycling the phone be the answer? On a recent trip, my
Nokia 6340i showed no signal and no Cingular. My sisters TDMA was
max strength. I turned my 6340i off and back on and it went to
full strength also.

Or was this just a case of the phone crashing and needing rebooting?

Ray

Vido wrote:
>
> ...at least with Cingular.
>
> Apparently they define which areas are GSM (their own or partner's
> like T-Mobile) and which are not - TDMA (Cingular or their partner's)
> or other, like AMPS, I suppose.
>
> So what's frustrating is that if you are in GSM area and you don't get
> GSM signal for whatever reason (i.e. dead-spot or in the building),
> the phone will _never_ switch to TDMA or AMPS, although I know those
> networks I available (I had my old AT&T TDMA phone with me.)
>
> On the "micro-level", e.g. in one-city boundaries, this defeats the
> whole purpose of GAIT. On the "macro-level" - when I travel far, e.g.
> to the mountains to ski, the phone will switch to TDMA, I hope. I am
> still to see how this is going to work, because I have GSM stretching
> for quite a bit around where I live (New York City). But there are
> still some dead-spots still in this area which I hoped to cover by
> having a GAIT phone and a corresponding plan.
>
> I spent l-l-lots of time with their customer and tech support people
> to gather this. Finally I got one guy on the phone who was really
> knowledgeable and honestly explained me the way it works...
>
> I tried Nokia 6340i and Sony Ericsson T62u: I went to the areas where
> I knew there were dead-spots for GSM coverage - three on the highway,
> one on the bridge, at my friend's house and at one other place - all
> within ~20 mile radius from NYC where the whole area is marked as
> solid GSM... BTW there is no way to force the phone into any
> particular mode, they don't even indicate the mode on the display, so
> you wouldn't know.
>
> Is that how it's supposed to be?
>
> Can anybody share their experience with GAIT? With Cingular or any
> other provider.
>
> Thanks
>
> Vido

With my 6340i in the Detroit market (and I travel all over the country
and the situations are the same) I have had Cingular GSM, TDMA and
AMPS; ATTWS GSM and TDMA; T-Mobile GSM; Microcell GSM and Bell
Mobility AMPS (the last two are Canadian carriers)and received and
made calls on all of them with no error messages or no sevice. I
think that Cingular puts different IRDB's according to the home market
into the phones since I have read many problems like the one below.

Chris

Please respond on Usenet


Jud Hardcastle <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Vido's problem is that
> he expects the phone to switch to ANY carrier when it looses the GSM
> signal, despite the fact that the other carrier MAY NOT HAVE A ROAMING
> AGREEMENT--FOR THAT AREA.
>
> I used to loose Cingular TDMA signal when I pulled up in front of a
> nearby 7-11 store, guess the towers were just right that the various
> stores blocked signal from all of them. Anyway, the TDMA/AMPS phone
> would switch to ATTWS with a strong signal. BUT I still couldn't make
> or receive a call--I'd get an error message--BECAUSE the roaming
> agreement doesn't allow for one carrier to be used "for backup" in the
> other carriers area. GAIT phones do the same thing--switch to the next
> preferred mode, in my case: Cingular GSM to Cingular TDMA to "preferred
> GSM" to "preferred" TDMA etc--"preferred" being the keyword since the
> carrier wouldn't be "preferred" in the IRDB ***unless*** it had a valid
> roaming agreement. If the IRDB doesn't cover a situation it may or may
> not work. Example2: Before Cingular GSM went live in Dallas, my 6340i
> would be on Cingular TDMA until I went into Home Depot and it would
> switch to GSM on T-Mobile but I could still make a call. (Since then
> the phone holds onto a very weak Cingular GSM signal.) No doubt the
> database hadn't allowed for this unusual situation and since T-Mobile is
> a preferred roamer outside of my home area...
>
> > It sounds like GAIT phones are only
> > to allow roaming in areas that have no GSM at all, not to fill in for
> > GSM's problems.
>
> No question about that. GAIT was advertised as a "transition" solution
> for a carrier coverting TDMA to GSM, i.e. some areas OF THE SAME CARRIER
> might be TDMA with others being GSM. It was NEVER advertised that GAIT
> phones could be used to FILL IN HOLES by switching to another carrier.
> It may work that way in a few cases but it mostly won't. I'm sure the
> agreements could be made to allow for "backup" use but in areas like
> California where Cingular has so many holes (from what people say--the
> last time *I* was in Calf the phones were still AMPS!) phones would be
> "roaming" onto another carrier more than they would be on their own
> system--the roaming rates would have to be increased for the entire plan
> to make that work. Weren't roaming rates variable years ago? Perhaps
> they should be variable or at least one rate for "backup" coverage
> inside your "home" area and another rate (or included in the plan) for
> everywhere else?

[email protected] (Chris Russell) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> With my 6340i in the Detroit market (and I travel all over the country
> and the situations are the same) I have had Cingular GSM, TDMA and
> AMPS; ATTWS GSM and TDMA; T-Mobile GSM; Microcell GSM and Bell
> Mobility AMPS (the last two are Canadian carriers)and received and
> made calls on all of them with no error messages or no sevice. I
> think that Cingular puts different IRDB's according to the home market
> into the phones since I have read many problems like the one below.

Perhaps- the rejection of alternative carriers seems more aggressive
at home than when roaming.

The real problem, however, is understanding how IRDBs are used.
Basically they are just a list of preferred and rejected SIDs. Your
phone is told never to use a rejected SID, to use a preferred SID when
available, but always use your home SID first, (regardless of how
crappy the signal is!)

Despite "general" roaming agreements between carriers (like Cingular
TDMA uses AT&T TDMA where Cingular isn't available) ALL SIDs in your
home market other than your carrier's are usually on the rejected
list. So even though I may Be in an area of Denver where my AT&T TDMA
phone can't pick up AT&T, it will NEVER use Verizon here in Denver.
Verizon's SID is "rejected."

In Kansas City, where AT&T has a small TDMA coverage area, but
Cingular has a larger one, both are preferred SIDs in the phone, and
the phone can bounce between them at will.

Todd Allcock wrote:
> [email protected] (Chris Russell) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>With my 6340i in the Detroit market (and I travel all over the country
>>and the situations are the same) I have had Cingular GSM, TDMA and
>>AMPS; ATTWS GSM and TDMA; T-Mobile GSM; Microcell GSM and Bell
>>Mobility AMPS (the last two are Canadian carriers)and received and
>>made calls on all of them with no error messages or no sevice. I
>>think that Cingular puts different IRDB's according to the home market
>>into the phones since I have read many problems like the one below.
>
>
> Perhaps- the rejection of alternative carriers seems more aggressive
> at home than when roaming.
>
> The real problem, however, is understanding how IRDBs are used.
> Basically they are just a list of preferred and rejected SIDs. Your
> phone is told never to use a rejected SID, to use a preferred SID when
> available, but always use your home SID first, (regardless of how
> crappy the signal is!)
>
> Despite "general" roaming agreements between carriers (like Cingular
> TDMA uses AT&T TDMA where Cingular isn't available) ALL SIDs in your
> home market other than your carrier's are usually on the rejected
> list. So even though I may Be in an area of Denver where my AT&T TDMA
> phone can't pick up AT&T, it will NEVER use Verizon here in Denver.
> Verizon's SID is "rejected."
>
> In Kansas City, where AT&T has a small TDMA coverage area, but
> Cingular has a larger one, both are preferred SIDs in the phone, and
> the phone can bounce between them at will.

Actually, in my home area of Orlando, Florida, I was frequently roaming
on AT&T WS, even when Cingular signal seemed strong. I had Moto TDMA
phone, and it was purchases and activated in the Orlando market. This
may be an oddity because of Walt Disney World, but it does happen that
you can roam on others in your home market. I would have no idea when I
was roaming except when I tried *89 to get my voicemail, and I got a
message from AT&T Wireless Services that I could not use the feature. I
changed the banners for Home, Partner, Favor, and Neutral systems and
could still find not pattern between when my phone would jump from
Cingular to AT&T and back.

AD

Jud Hardcastle <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > I think this is an argument against GAIT for me. If Dobson gets GSM
> > in our area, since we are 25 miles from the tower, we are beyond the
> > limit for GSM. This means that our existing TDMA coverage will
> > disappear with a GAIT phone, and we will be too far to have a GSM
> > call, unless there ever are phones that fix the range limitation of
> > GSM or allow you to force TDMA.
>
> From what I've seen so far with the Cingular rollout, GSM and TDMA
> appear to have almost identical coverage from the same tower--if
> anything GSM may go a few miles further. In any case that wouldn't be a
> problem unless Dobson turned off their TDMA/AMPS coverage and there
> wasn't another GSM/TDMA/AMPS carrier available WITH A ROAMING AGREEMENT.
> For example, in the FEW places I've lost Cingular GSM coverage THAT ALSO
> WAS COVERED BY CINGULAR TDMA/AMPS the phone just switched to TDMA and
> still said Cingular--as it was supposed to do. Vido's problem is that
> he expects the phone to switch to ANY carrier when it looses the GSM
> signal, despite the fact that the other carrier MAY NOT HAVE A ROAMING
> AGREEMENT--FOR THAT AREA.
Standard GSM has a 35 km limit. You get a signal that is useless from
what I understand past the limit. You can send SMS, but no voice
transmission is possible. Therefore, if the gate phone were to pick up
a standard GSM tower past the 35km limit, and the phone won't let you
switch to TDMA, you would not be able to make a call. There is
something called extended range GSM, but will any US carriers use it?
See http://www.ericsson.co.nz/press/2000...vodafone.shtml

John Klug wrote:

> Standard GSM has a 35 km limit. You get a signal that is useless from
> what I understand past the limit. You can send SMS, but no voice
> transmission is possible. Therefore, if the gate phone were to pick up
> a standard GSM tower past the 35km limit, and the phone won't let you
> switch to TDMA, you would not be able to make a call. There is
> something called extended range GSM, but will any US carriers use it?
> See http://www.ericsson.co.nz/press/2000...vodafone.shtml

Unfortunately, both Extended Range GSM (72 km limit) and Enhanced
Extended Range GSM (121 km) cells are incompatible with GPRS.
And because two timeslots are allocated to each active call, only
half the number of concurrent calls can be handled by one of
these cells.

And the 35 km distance limit for normal GSM cells applies equally
to SMS.

John