Analog systems, remaining channel capacity.

I had noticed something a while back that I thought was note worthy.
When I tried calling another analog only phone while roaming on
the same verizon system, I couldn't get a call through.
It wasn't peak operating time, it was the middle of the night.

So I done a little experimenting at home.
I decided to see how many analog channels they still had available.
To find out that figure, I got a couple analog phones together, and
made a call from multiple phones at the same time, to see if I would
reach a limit with the number of phones I had.

Surprisingly, I toped out quicker than I expected.

The verizon system around here only has one analog channel per sector.
Cingular only has two channels per sector.

On verizon
When I have one phone conducting a call, I can't make a call
with a second phone, at all.
I guess that is why I couldn't call a second analog phone in the
same area, because there is only one channel available.

Cingular will top out at two channels.
When I try to make a call with the third phone, I just get the fast busy.

I don't know the number of simultaneous channels
that would be available In town.
And in town, you would have heavier overlapping coverage.
That would mean that two people could use two different towers
while they are in the same area.

So, just because two phones in analog mode in the same area
have a solid signal, doesn't mean that you can call one from the other.

---

› See More: Analog systems, remaining channel capacity.

"N9WOS" wrote:
> I done a little experimenting at home.
> I decided to see how many analog channels they still had available.
> To find out that figure, I got a couple analog phones together, and
> made a call from multiple phones at the same time, to see if I would
> reach a limit with the number of phones I had.

Wow! That's verrry interesting! Occasionally, I get the rapid busy signal
when attempting a call in the Raleigh NC area. Hmmm.

Here's another possible twist:
There is an area around I-40 and NC42 in Johnston County, NC where you
seldom can get an analog call to take, and if you do, there is a lot of hiss
and crackling--even though the signal is strong. I suspect the analog part
of the cell site has an equipment malfunction. But since so few folks use it
(or would take the time to report the problem), it remains in the defective
condition. (This has been going on for over six months.)

Back to your experiment, it would be interesting to try the test from
another tower's footprint. I say this because the tower across the street
from my office lost it's digital "voice", recently. All my agents were
complaining that their batteries were running down. I watched for a few
days and realized that when in this tower's zone, I always was in the analog
mode.

I reported it to Verizon, giving them the location of the tower by street
address and the number of the fire station where the tower is placed. The
tech support rep responded that they would get right on it, and then added,
"You're not the average cell phone user, are you?" * (grin)

SUMMARY: If you reproduce the symptoms at another location, it may be a
conspiracy. If not, it's likely to be equipment failure at your tower.
Report it and see if anything changes. And let the group know how it turns
out.

-Paul-

*They restored the digital service within twelve hours.

N9WOS wrote:
> I had noticed something a while back that I thought was note worthy.
> When I tried calling another analog only phone while roaming on
> the same verizon system, I couldn't get a call through.
> It wasn't peak operating time, it was the middle of the night.
>
> So I done a little experimenting at home.
> I decided to see how many analog channels they still had available.
> To find out that figure, I got a couple analog phones together, and
> made a call from multiple phones at the same time, to see if I would
> reach a limit with the number of phones I had.
>
> Surprisingly, I toped out quicker than I expected.
>
> The verizon system around here only has one analog channel per sector.
> Cingular only has two channels per sector.
>
> On verizon
> When I have one phone conducting a call, I can't make a call
> with a second phone, at all.
> I guess that is why I couldn't call a second analog phone in the
> same area, because there is only one channel available.
>
> Cingular will top out at two channels.
> When I try to make a call with the third phone, I just get the fast busy.
>
> I don't know the number of simultaneous channels
> that would be available In town.
> And in town, you would have heavier overlapping coverage.
> That would mean that two people could use two different towers
> while they are in the same area.
>
> So, just because two phones in analog mode in the same area
> have a solid signal, doesn't mean that you can call one from the other.
>
>


Yes, legacy AMPS is on the way out, and a number of subscription
services are going to grind to a halt if they don't upgrade. Highway
Master, UPS, and OnStar are often mentioned. Does anyone know if these
(or any other) subscription services are considering upgrades to digital?

--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

OnStar has said that selected 2004 and all 2005 models will be equipped with
Tri-mode services. They also say that an upgrade "should" be available when
and if analog goes dark in 07 or 08. I have a 2003 Saab and it is analog.

"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> N9WOS wrote:
> > I had noticed something a while back that I thought was note worthy.
> > When I tried calling another analog only phone while roaming on
> > the same verizon system, I couldn't get a call through.
> > It wasn't peak operating time, it was the middle of the night.
> >
> > So I done a little experimenting at home.
> > I decided to see how many analog channels they still had available.
> > To find out that figure, I got a couple analog phones together, and
> > made a call from multiple phones at the same time, to see if I would
> > reach a limit with the number of phones I had.
> >
> > Surprisingly, I toped out quicker than I expected.
> >
> > The verizon system around here only has one analog channel per sector.
> > Cingular only has two channels per sector.
> >
> > On verizon
> > When I have one phone conducting a call, I can't make a call
> > with a second phone, at all.
> > I guess that is why I couldn't call a second analog phone in the
> > same area, because there is only one channel available.
> >
> > Cingular will top out at two channels.
> > When I try to make a call with the third phone, I just get the fast
busy.
> >
> > I don't know the number of simultaneous channels
> > that would be available In town.
> > And in town, you would have heavier overlapping coverage.
> > That would mean that two people could use two different towers
> > while they are in the same area.
> >
> > So, just because two phones in analog mode in the same area
> > have a solid signal, doesn't mean that you can call one from the other.
> >
> >
>
>
> Yes, legacy AMPS is on the way out, and a number of subscription
> services are going to grind to a halt if they don't upgrade. Highway
> Master, UPS, and OnStar are often mentioned. Does anyone know if these
> (or any other) subscription services are considering upgrades to digital?
>
> --
> jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
> "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
> what we know." -- Richard Wilbur
>

> SUMMARY: If you reproduce the symptoms at another location, it may be a
> conspiracy. If not, it's likely to be equipment failure at your tower.
> Report it and see if anything changes. And let the group know how it turns
> out.

Someone was evidently having a long winded conversation on one
of the verizon amps channels in this cell when I made my other test.
Today, I tried it again, and I can get 2 simultaneous calls.

Cingular is unchanged with it's two maximum calls.

I don't think it's a conspiracy.
I just think that it is what the have determined to be adequate for this
area.

I will try it in Bloomington, when ever I get the time.

"CK" wrote...
> OnStar has said that selected 2004 and all 2005 models will be equipped
with
> Tri-mode services. They also say that an upgrade "should" be available
when
> and if analog goes dark in 07 or 08. I have a 2003 Saab and it is analog.

Ditto, here for the 2003 Impala and 2003 LeSabre. Not much of a concern,
however. At this time, I see no reason to continue the subscriptions. All
the drivers have tri-mode cell phones. I shifted away from the 3-watt
"installed" phones several years ago because if the battery fails, the phone
is dead. (Never mind how I know--grin.) I still use some analog equipment,
but the power sources are self-contained.

-Paul-

P.S. Interstate Batteries DO need water replacement. The caps are hidden
under the raised warning labels. If the level drops, the battery fails
suddenly and without warning. Because it creates a short-circuit across the
electrical system, the engine stops running and all lights and accessories
go dark.

I must be the only one on AMPS in Charleston. No, make that six. I
know of 5 other loyal AMPS users on Verizon, here. We never get a
"busy" signal. Works great! I do know that not all the tinytowers
have AMPS equipment in them, though, because I don't get full scale
standing by them with the bagphone when a CDMA toyphone will have full
scale. Of course, even then, the AMPS phone works better...(c;

Shared channels my ass......(c;


Larry W4CSC

NNNN

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:17:36 GMT, "Real Estate Agent"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I reported it to Verizon, giving them the location of the tower by street
>address and the number of the fire station where the tower is placed. The
>tech support rep responded that they would get right on it, and then added,
>"You're not the average cell phone user, are you?" * (grin)
>
I wonder how wide this "ignorance mode" is. I come from a paging
background. In a paging system, where there are many simultaneous
transmitters all very accurately transmitting the same data,
synchronized as close as we can get, we have polling equipment that
puts a data test call into the stream of pages, every so often, that
only transmits from one of the towers at a time. A receiver listens
to these transmissions, one at a time, and an alarm goes off (paging
the duty technician in a good system and logging the outage) notifying
the technical staff that one of our transmitters is not functioning
(receiving pages on the link channels and transmitting the pages it
hears).

After years of experience with cellular, literally from its first
installations, I'm convinced cellular either doesn't have this kind of
automated operational tests, or chooses to ignore them, because they
always seem quite interested in my outage reports as if it were the
first they'd heard that the equipment in X location was dead. They
don't seem to know even if it has a blown fuse. Ha....one report I
made, the guy called me back and said when he got to the site there
wasn't much left! It took a direct lightning hit and there was
nothing in the building not completely destroyed.....bringing back
some fond paging memories at 1AM on Sunday night after a massive storm
front passage. Ah, the smell of burning hardline....(c;


Larry W4CSC

NNNN

Oh, sorry, must have been me on unlimited nights and weekends....(c;

I'll point the big beam in another direction, SE out to sea....

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:36:30 GMT, "N9WOS"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> SUMMARY: If you reproduce the symptoms at another location, it may be a
>> conspiracy. If not, it's likely to be equipment failure at your tower.
>> Report it and see if anything changes. And let the group know how it turns
>> out.
>
>Someone was evidently having a long winded conversation on one
>of the verizon amps channels in this cell when I made my other test.
>Today, I tried it again, and I can get 2 simultaneous calls.
>
>Cingular is unchanged with it's two maximum calls.
>
>I don't think it's a conspiracy.
>I just think that it is what the have determined to be adequate for this
>area.
>
>I will try it in Bloomington, when ever I get the time.
>
>

Larry W4CSC

NNNN

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:10:17 -0600, Jer <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Yes, legacy AMPS is on the way out, and a number of subscription
>services are going to grind to a halt if they don't upgrade. Highway
>Master, UPS, and OnStar are often mentioned. Does anyone know if these
>(or any other) subscription services are considering upgrades to digital?
>
Sorry to bust yer bubble, jer, but the current date FCC has said they
don't HAVE to provide service to AMPS is February 16th, 2008. FCC
regulations say they MUST provide service until then.

FCC will extend this date UNLESS the carriers can convince them that
there is no appreciable use on AMPS after that date.

As long as the crypto voice from the President's limo is on AMPS, I'd
say we're quite safe for a while....(c;


Larry W4CSC

NNNN

"Larry W4CSC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Sorry to bust yer bubble, jer, but the current date FCC has said they
> don't HAVE to provide service to AMPS is February 16th, 2008. FCC
> regulations say they MUST provide service until then.

True.

> FCC will extend this date UNLESS the carriers can convince them that
> there is no appreciable use on AMPS after that date.

Sadly, you and your five analog-totin friends wouldn't be considered
"appreciable use". Already there is little "appreciable use" of AMPS left
in the major cities, and by 2008, I suspect digital will be ubiquitous
enough in the sticks that AMPS will sunset on schedule, except from those
carriers still seeing enough use to keep a channel or two open just for you.

> As long as the crypto voice from the President's limo is on AMPS, I'd
> say we're quite safe for a while....(c;

I'd say the limophone has little bearing on the FCC's decision, one way or
another. The 2008 sunset is already warning enough to carriers,
manufacturers and users alike.

I'll miss AMPS too, but I doubt you'll be seeing any extensions.

Todd Allcock wrote:
> "Larry W4CSC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>Sorry to bust yer bubble, jer, but the current date FCC has said they
>>don't HAVE to provide service to AMPS is February 16th, 2008. FCC
>>regulations say they MUST provide service until then.
>
>
> True.
>
>
>>FCC will extend this date UNLESS the carriers can convince them that
>>there is no appreciable use on AMPS after that date.
>
>
> Sadly, you and your five analog-totin friends wouldn't be considered
> "appreciable use". Already there is little "appreciable use" of AMPS left
> in the major cities, and by 2008, I suspect digital will be ubiquitous
> enough in the sticks that AMPS will sunset on schedule, except from those
> carriers still seeing enough use to keep a channel or two open just for you.
>
>
>>As long as the crypto voice from the President's limo is on AMPS, I'd
>>say we're quite safe for a while....(c;
>
>
> I'd say the limophone has little bearing on the FCC's decision, one way or
> another. The 2008 sunset is already warning enough to carriers,
> manufacturers and users alike.
>
> I'll miss AMPS too, but I doubt you'll be seeing any extensions.


I think it will depend on how GSM/UMTS and CDMA have coverage everywhere
there is coverage. Right now, AMPS is the only truly universal wireless
voice protocol in the United States. Many parts of Canada and Mexico
still also have AMPS coverage, and thier upgrade schedule to digital is
minimal.

==AD

Larry W4CSC wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:10:17 -0600, Jer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, legacy AMPS is on the way out, and a number of subscription
>>services are going to grind to a halt if they don't upgrade. Highway
>>Master, UPS, and OnStar are often mentioned. Does anyone know if these
>>(or any other) subscription services are considering upgrades to digital?
>>
>
> Sorry to bust yer bubble, jer, but the current date FCC has said they
> don't HAVE to provide service to AMPS is February 16th, 2008. FCC
> regulations say they MUST provide service until then.

Well, it ain't my bubble gettin busted, I don't really care enough
either way to have a bubble. I think by the time that sunset date rolls
around, there won't be enough analog sets runnin around to matter one
whit to the FCC or any carrier that doesn't have their head up their butt.

>
> FCC will extend this date UNLESS the carriers can convince them that
> there is no appreciable use on AMPS after that date.
>
> As long as the crypto voice from the President's limo is on AMPS, I'd
> say we're quite safe for a while....(c;

I can't imagine why the FCC would care what band the limo phone uses,
the limo occupant does whatever he wants anyway despite what anyone with
a clue says. I wouldn't be surprised to open that limo's trunk to find
a Model 19 teletype banging away.

upshift-downshift-upshift-downshift-upshift-downshift-upshift-downshift


--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

Aboutdakota wrote:

>
>
> Todd Allcock wrote:

>> I'd say the limophone has little bearing on the FCC's decision, one
>> way or
>> another. The 2008 sunset is already warning enough to carriers,
>> manufacturers and users alike.
>>
>> I'll miss AMPS too, but I doubt you'll be seeing any extensions.
>
>
>
> I think it will depend on how GSM/UMTS and CDMA have coverage everywhere
> there is coverage. Right now, AMPS is the only truly universal wireless
> voice protocol in the United States. Many parts of Canada and Mexico
> still also have AMPS coverage, and thier upgrade schedule to digital is
> minimal.
>
> ==AD

Does the FCC really care what Canada and Mexico do with their cellular
services? Gee, you'd think the FCC had enough to piss and moan about
without importing more. And Mexico's Telcel has a crackin GSM system in
the Yucatan area now. Desk-model prepay phones with a credit card swipe
are flying out the door, and a boat load of tourist services are jumping
on these like a ducks on a junebug. This is likely due to the landline
services sucking.


--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273
"All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of
what we know." -- Richard Wilbur

> > FCC will extend this date UNLESS the carriers can convince them that
> > there is no appreciable use on AMPS after that date.
> >
> > As long as the crypto voice from the President's limo is on AMPS, I'd
> > say we're quite safe for a while....(c;
>
> I can't imagine why the FCC would care what band the limo phone uses,
> the limo occupant does whatever he wants anyway despite what anyone with
> a clue says. I wouldn't be surprised to open that limo's trunk to find
> a Model 19 teletype banging away.
>
> upshift-downshift-upshift-downshift-upshift-downshift-upshift-downshift

Hey....... what's wrong with RTTY? :-)