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  1. #1
    John Henderson
    Guest
    Secret Squirrel wrote:

    > I have a problem and was hoping that someone here might be
    > able to suggest a solution. I have just purchased a new W800i
    > and it has a Telco company logo where the right hand menu
    > option/shortcut is on the screen - the one that normally says
    > menu or info etc. If you select it, it takes you into a web
    > browser and connects to the phone company's web site.
    >
    >
    > How do I get the normal "menu/info" options back on the main
    > screen? I have searched through all of the set-up data but can
    > find nothing other than the shortcut options for the toggle. I
    > don't use the web with the phone and object to them placing
    > their logo permanently on my phone. If I can't find a way to
    > get rid of it I am returning the phone.


    It's probably done using SIM Application Toolkit (STK). If so,
    there's nothing you can do about it short of getting a SIM
    without that application programmed in. To check, try someone
    else's SIM (on a different network). If the unwanted
    "functionality" disappears with another SIM, it's an STK
    application.

    John



    See More: Logo on Ericsson W800i




  2. #2
    Taylor
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    "John Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Secret Squirrel wrote:
    >
    >> I have a problem and was hoping that someone here might be
    >> able to suggest a solution. I have just purchased a new W800i
    >> and it has a Telco company logo where the right hand menu
    >> option/shortcut is on the screen - the one that normally says
    >> menu or info etc. If you select it, it takes you into a web
    >> browser and connects to the phone company's web site.
    >>
    >>
    >> How do I get the normal "menu/info" options back on the main
    >> screen? I have searched through all of the set-up data but can
    >> find nothing other than the shortcut options for the toggle. I
    >> don't use the web with the phone and object to them placing
    >> their logo permanently on my phone. If I can't find a way to
    >> get rid of it I am returning the phone.

    >
    > It's probably done using SIM Application Toolkit (STK). If so,
    > there's nothing you can do about it short of getting a SIM
    > without that application programmed in. To check, try someone
    > else's SIM (on a different network). If the unwanted
    > "functionality" disappears with another SIM, it's an STK
    > application.


    It's surely more likely to be firmware customisation?! In which case, the
    answer is yes :-) You can 'unbrand' your handset using da vinci
    http://www.davinciteam.com - and use your w800 usb cable (or another cable)
    to unbrand it.





  3. #3
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    Taylor wrote:

    > It's surely more likely to be firmware customisation?! In
    > which case, the answer is yes :-) You can 'unbrand' your
    > handset using da vinci http://www.davinciteam.com - and use
    > your w800 usb cable (or another cable) to unbrand it.


    Could be firmware, but it's been done with STK in the few cases
    I've seen.

    John



  4. #4
    pete devlin
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    In message <[email protected]>, John Henderson
    <[email protected]> writes
    >Could be firmware, but it's been done with STK in the few cases I've
    >seen.


    You don't really know do you? It _IS_ a firmware function and can only
    be removed by debranding.
    --
    Pete Devlin
    [{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
    "And the devil in a black dress watches over"



  5. #5
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    pete devlin wrote:

    > You don't really know do you?


    Yes, that's exactly what I said.

    > It _IS_ a firmware function and can only be removed by
    > debranding.


    You're very confident. But as I said, extra logos, key
    assignments and menu items can be implemented using SIM
    Application Toolkit, and that's the way I've seen it done by
    some telcos. And I've done enough STK programming myself to be
    sure about the capabilities.

    Please have a good look at GSM 11.14 for the technical details.

    John



  6. #6
    pete devlin
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    In message <[email protected]>, John Henderson
    <[email protected]> writes
    >pete devlin wrote:
    >
    >> You don't really know do you?

    >
    >Yes, that's exactly what I said.


    Then why make a complete guess at the rest?

    >
    >> It _IS_ a firmware function and can only be removed by
    >> debranding.

    >
    >You're very confident. But as I said, extra logos, key
    >assignments and menu items can be implemented using SIM
    >Application Toolkit, and that's the way I've seen it done by
    >some telcos. And I've done enough STK programming myself to be
    >sure about the capabilities.


    Someone has already told you how it is done. If you do actually know
    different now would be a good time to prove it. Thinking out loud over
    usenet is pointless and potentially embarressing.

    >
    >Please have a good look at GSM 11.14 for the technical details.
    >

    Why? I know how to do it. I have a phone in my hand with exactly the
    result that the OP asked for. It is one of many that I have debranded.
    It is nothing top do with GSM, it is a firmware function. Can we stop
    wasting bandwidth over a trivial point now?
    --
    Pete Devlin
    [{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
    "And the devil in a black dress watches over"



  7. #7
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    pete devlin wrote:

    > Then why make a complete guess at the rest?


    My sincerest apologies, but the OP asked a question, which I
    jumped in and answered to the best of my ability.

    > Someone has already told you how it is done.


    They've pointed out that it _can_ be done in firmware, and I'd
    be silly to dispute something so obvious. But have not I
    personally seen that sort of thing done with firmware. Now it
    may well be that's because I buy phones outright, unlocked,
    without SIMs, and without any tethering to a particular
    carrier. Perhaps it's also because we operate in different
    world markets.

    > If you do actually know different now would be a good time to
    > prove it.


    Prove what? Under discussion is exactly the sort of task STK
    was put into the GSM standards for. My proof of the
    alternative mechanism is my reference to GSM 11.14, QED.

    > Thinking out loud over usenet is pointless and potentially
    > embarressing.


    I'm not even a little bit embarrassed.

    > Why? I know how to do it. I have a phone in my hand with
    > exactly the result that the OP asked for. It is one of many
    > that I have debranded.


    I'm not denying that, and I'm happy to take your word for your
    "debranding" activities.

    > It is nothing top do with GSM, it is a firmware function.


    In many cases, apparently yes. But what about the telco selling
    SIMs, and controlling aspects of the display and menus on
    _whatever_ phone it's put into? They do achieve that you know,
    and without write access to phone firmware. And you could
    unsuccessfully try to "debrand" one of these phones until the
    cows come home.

    > Can we stop wasting bandwidth over a trivial point now?


    I'm not the one who escalated this debate. To the extent that
    it's trivial, you'll hear no more from me. What I hotly
    contest however is the claim that any phone with visible
    telco-specific functionality must be running "branded"
    firmware.

    John



  8. #8
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    Secret Squirrel wrote:

    > No, it isn't anything to do with the sim card, it is in the
    > new phone. It is irritating on two counts, one I don't really
    > want to see the telco's logo every time I look at the phone,
    > and two, they have pre empted a useful shortcut, the one that
    > brings up the main menu and replaced it with a logo that logs
    > onto the company's web site. I can use the menu button without
    > looking at the phone i.e., while driving, but cannot reliably
    > use the joystick to obtain the same result. The slightest
    > directional movement on the joystick will put it into another
    > menu area.
    >
    > I used to be able to navigate to any menu function with key
    > presses, now, by being forced to use the joystick, I have to
    > be watching the screen to do the same thing. It distracts
    > while driving, not a good thing to do.
    >
    > I have discovered software that will remove it it but it only
    > runs on a Windows platform - I am Mac based. I am returning
    > the phone and going with another telco. I have instructed my
    > credit card company to reverse the transaction and they have
    > agreed to do so.


    Hopefully it all works out for you. Some of us learned
    something in the process, and that's always a good thing.

    It's irrelevant to your situation now, but for the record 2 of
    my 5 active SIMs behave in a similiar manner when put into a
    pristine STK-capable handset. The others don't.

    cheers,

    John



  9. #9
    J. David Anderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    pete devlin wrote:
    > In message <[email protected]>, John Henderson
    > <[email protected]> writes
    >
    >> pete devlin wrote:
    >>
    >>> You don't really know do you?

    >>
    >>
    >> Yes, that's exactly what I said.

    >
    >
    > Then why make a complete guess at the rest?
    >
    >>
    >>> It _IS_ a firmware function and can only be removed by
    >>> debranding.

    >>
    >>
    >> You're very confident. But as I said, extra logos, key
    >> assignments and menu items can be implemented using SIM
    >> Application Toolkit, and that's the way I've seen it done by
    >> some telcos. And I've done enough STK programming myself to be
    >> sure about the capabilities.

    >
    >
    > Someone has already told you how it is done. If you do actually know
    > different now would be a good time to prove it. Thinking out loud over
    > usenet is pointless and potentially embarressing.
    >
    >>
    >> Please have a good look at GSM 11.14 for the technical details.
    >>

    > Why? I know how to do it. I have a phone in my hand with exactly the
    > result that the OP asked for. It is one of many that I have debranded.
    > It is nothing top do with GSM, it is a firmware function. Can we stop
    > wasting bandwidth over a trivial point now?


    How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or type of
    cellphone, interact with the various operating systems and hardware that
    it could potentially encounter and still replace a specific function on
    a specific phone? I would be more inclined to agree that it would be in
    the phone's firmware.

    Curious though, as I also have a W800 although mine is not "branded" in
    any manner. What I find intriguing is the possibility of reassigning a
    dedicated function key to another single keypress function, say
    switching Bluetooth on and off.

    Have you done this?

    Regards

    David

    --

    To email me, please include the letters DNF anywhere in the subject line.

    All other mail is automatically deleted.



  10. #10
    pete devlin
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    In message <[email protected]>, J. David Anderson
    <[email protected]?.invalid> writes
    >How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or type of
    >cellphone, interact with the various operating systems and hardware
    >that it could potentially encounter and still replace a specific
    >function on a specific phone? I would be more inclined to agree that it
    >would be in the phone's firmware.


    Of course it is.

    >
    >Curious though, as I also have a W800 although mine is not "branded" in
    >any manner. What I find intriguing is the possibility of reassigning a
    >dedicated function key to another single keypress function, say
    >switching Bluetooth on and off.
    >
    >Have you done this?


    No. It would involve modifying firmware and loading it. I just know how
    to replace one with another. Way beyond me. The shortcuts function gets
    you there in 2 clicks - that's almost there!
    --
    Pete Devlin
    [{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
    "And the devil in a black dress watches over"



  11. #11
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    J. David Anderson wrote:

    > How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or
    > type of cellphone, interact with the various operating systems
    > and hardware that it could potentially encounter and still
    > replace a specific function on a specific phone?


    As you ask, by the SIM running an STK application and issuing
    the "GET INKEY" proactive SIM command to the phone (ME), of
    course. To quote GSM 11.14:

    "This command instructs the ME to display text and/or an icon
    (see 6.5.4) and to expect the user to enter a single character.
    Any response entered by the user shall be passed transparently
    by the ME to the SIM."

    It's just an ordinary STK tag-length-value (TLV) command, which
    will run on any STK-capable phone with a suitable STK profile
    when such a SIM is used.

    John



  12. #12
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    J. David Anderson wrote:

    > How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or
    > type of cellphone, interact with the various operating systems
    > and hardware that it could potentially encounter and still
    > replace a specific function on a specific phone?


    To answer more generally and completely than my earlier specific
    reply, it's done by compliance with standards and associated
    specifications. GSM 11.14 requires that compliant handsets can
    be (in part) driven by the SIM using an array of "proactive SIM
    commands". Other commands allow the SIM to process and react
    to those interactive commands.

    Most GSM phones these days (Ericsson W800i included) are
    compliant.

    Some phones (notably Siemens) even allow STK commands to be run
    from the serial port as an alternative, as if they were being
    run directly from the SIM. Using STK proactive commands, I've
    written netmonitoring software which shows many interesting
    things not otherwise accessible, like distance to the current
    serving cell (by reading Timing Advance), and the list of
    neighbouring cells (with signal strengths) at any given time.

    SIM Application Toolkit is very powerful - don't underestimate
    it.

    John



  13. #13
    pete devlin
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    In message <[email protected]>, John Henderson
    <[email protected]> writes
    >J. David Anderson wrote:
    >
    >> How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or
    >> type of cellphone, interact with the various operating systems
    >> and hardware that it could potentially encounter and still
    >> replace a specific function on a specific phone?

    >
    >As you ask, by the SIM running an STK application and issuing
    >the "GET INKEY" proactive SIM command to the phone (ME), of
    >course. To quote GSM 11.14:
    >
    >"This command instructs the ME to display text and/or an icon
    >(see 6.5.4) and to expect the user to enter a single character.
    >Any response entered by the user shall be passed transparently
    >by the ME to the SIM."
    >
    >It's just an ordinary STK tag-length-value (TLV) command, which
    >will run on any STK-capable phone with a suitable STK profile
    >when such a SIM is used.
    >

    A little knowledge is dangerous. The SIM in question would not be
    running any applications. Do SIMs run applications? How do they know how
    to? Is it when the user presses a button? What logo and purpose would
    such a button have? Where would that be stored then?
    --
    Pete Devlin
    [{//////news03//////at\\\\\secondrow/////co\\\\\uk}]
    "And the devil in a black dress watches over"



  14. #14
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.gsm - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:32:47 +0000, pete
    devlin <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In message <[email protected]>, John Henderson
    ><[email protected]> writes
    >>J. David Anderson wrote:
    >>
    >>> How could a sim, something that can be used in any model or
    >>> type of cellphone, interact with the various operating systems
    >>> and hardware that it could potentially encounter and still
    >>> replace a specific function on a specific phone?

    >>
    >>As you ask, by the SIM running an STK application and issuing
    >>the "GET INKEY" proactive SIM command to the phone (ME), of
    >>course. To quote GSM 11.14:
    >>
    >>"This command instructs the ME to display text and/or an icon
    >>(see 6.5.4) and to expect the user to enter a single character.
    >>Any response entered by the user shall be passed transparently
    >>by the ME to the SIM."
    >>
    >>It's just an ordinary STK tag-length-value (TLV) command, which
    >>will run on any STK-capable phone with a suitable STK profile
    >>when such a SIM is used.
    >>

    >A little knowledge is dangerous.


    It is indeed.

    >The SIM in question would not be
    >running any applications.


    It doesn't have to.

    >Do SIMs run applications?


    They can.

    >How do they know how
    >to? Is it when the user presses a button? What logo and purpose would
    >such a button have? Where would that be stored then?


    Way beyond the scope of this response. See SIM standards at ETSI.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  15. #15
    John Henderson
    Guest

    Re: Logo on Ericsson W800i

    John Navas wrote:

    > Way beyond the scope of this response. See SIM standards at
    > ETSI.


    Yes, there are some very good questions there from Pete. And
    I'll be the first to say "I don't know" to some of them.

    When running from the SIM, STK apps necessarily get tied up with
    SIM security, some aspects of which is _not_ in the public
    domain. And I personally don't have any SIM programming tools
    as such with which to experiment.

    As I said in another post, I have written a specific STK
    application, but using the serial port and a very useful "back
    door" provided by Siemens. So I'm up to speed on basic TLV
    command syntax, but not how the whole thing gets embedded and
    locked into the SIM.

    John



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