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  1. #1
    mah
    Guest
    As a general statement I dislike cross posting, but I will for this
    query since it allows me to look at several knowledgable people at once
    in both the cellular and ems communities.

    Our E911 system just upgraded to allow cell towers to give an
    approximate location for a cell call. The one question I couldn't get
    an answer to was how the location was located.

    I'm familiar with triangulation where tower one notes it is on the A
    side of the triangle antenna array which covers 0-120 degrees. Tower 2
    sees it off the C side covering 240-360. This is a pretty wide area
    since our cell towers are a good distance apart in a rural area.

    Do they also ping the cell phone to get a distance measurement? Is this
    used to help narrow the error circle?

    Thanks in advance for the help.

    MAH



    See More: cell phones and location fixing




  2. #2
    David Lesher
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    mah <[email protected]> writes:

    >As a general statement I dislike cross posting, but I will for this
    >query since it allows me to look at several knowledgable people at once
    >in both the cellular and ems communities.


    >Our E911 system just upgraded to allow cell towers to give an
    >approximate location for a cell call. The one question I couldn't get
    >an answer to was how the location was located.


    There are 2-3 schemes. Most generally, you know which antenna on a
    given cell is in use. From 2 cells, you can get a area.

    More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.

    --
    A host is a host from coast to [email protected]
    & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
    Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
    is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433



  3. #3
    David Lesher
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    mah <[email protected]> writes:

    >As a general statement I dislike cross posting, but I will for this
    >query since it allows me to look at several knowledgable people at once
    >in both the cellular and ems communities.


    >Our E911 system just upgraded to allow cell towers to give an
    >approximate location for a cell call. The one question I couldn't get
    >an answer to was how the location was located.


    There are 2-3 schemes. Most generally, you know which antenna on a
    given cell is in use. From 2 cells, you can get a area.

    More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.

    --
    A host is a host from coast to [email protected]
    & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
    Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
    is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433



  4. #4
    John P Vassel
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    > 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    > But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    > a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.
    >


    And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.


    john



  5. #5
    John P Vassel
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    > 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    > But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    > a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.
    >


    And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.


    john



  6. #6
    Scott in Aztlán
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:41:59 -0600, mah <[email protected]> wrote:

    >As a general statement I dislike cross posting, but I will for this
    >query since it allows me to look at several knowledgable people at once
    >in both the cellular and ems communities.
    >
    >Our E911 system just upgraded to allow cell towers to give an
    >approximate location for a cell call. The one question I couldn't get
    >an answer to was how the location was located.


    The following may prove to be of interest:

    http://www.it.cityu.edu.hk/~hcso/icassp03_1.pdf

    --
    When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did -
    not screaming like the passengers in his car.



  7. #7
    Scott in Aztlán
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:41:59 -0600, mah <[email protected]> wrote:

    >As a general statement I dislike cross posting, but I will for this
    >query since it allows me to look at several knowledgable people at once
    >in both the cellular and ems communities.
    >
    >Our E911 system just upgraded to allow cell towers to give an
    >approximate location for a cell call. The one question I couldn't get
    >an answer to was how the location was located.


    The following may prove to be of interest:

    http://www.it.cityu.edu.hk/~hcso/icassp03_1.pdf

    --
    When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did -
    not screaming like the passengers in his car.



  8. #8
    Steven J Sobol
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    In alt.cellular John P Vassel <[email protected]> wrote:
    > David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    >> 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    >> But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    >> a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.

    >
    > And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.


    I'm led to understand that there isn't a phone Verizon sells anymore that
    *doesn't* have GPS. I know my five-month-old Verizon Kyocera 2325 has it,
    though my somewhat older 3035e doesn't.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * [email protected]



  9. #9
    Steven J Sobol
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    In alt.cellular John P Vassel <[email protected]> wrote:
    > David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    >> 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    >> But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    >> a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.

    >
    > And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.


    I'm led to understand that there isn't a phone Verizon sells anymore that
    *doesn't* have GPS. I know my five-month-old Verizon Kyocera 2325 has it,
    though my somewhat older 3035e doesn't.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services
    22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
    Steve Sobol, Proprietor
    888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * [email protected]



  10. #10
    CharlesH
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Steven J Sobol <[email protected]> wrote:
    >In alt.cellular John P Vassel <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    >> news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >>> More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    >>> 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    >>> But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    >>> a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.

    >>
    >> And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.

    >
    >I'm led to understand that there isn't a phone Verizon sells anymore that
    >*doesn't* have GPS. I know my five-month-old Verizon Kyocera 2325 has it,
    >though my somewhat older 3035e doesn't.


    The GPS scheme uses a technique where most of the work of the GPS protocol
    is done in the cell site, with the result that the location process works
    in many situations where standalone GPS units will not work, such as indoors
    and in city streets between tall buildings. While most current Verizon phones
    have the required hardware, it seems that the corresponding equipment in
    cell sites is not in a lot of places. And then, the connections to the
    PSAPs (911 centers) has to be done to pass the information on to them.
    We will know when the cell sites are updated
    when we hear about location-specific applications such as SMS ads telling
    you about the great deal on Big Macs at the nearby McDonalds :-(.

    www.snaptrack.com has an overview of the "Assisted GPS" product.




  11. #11
    CharlesH
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Steven J Sobol <[email protected]> wrote:
    >In alt.cellular John P Vassel <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    >> news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >>> More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    >>> 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    >>> But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    >>> a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.

    >>
    >> And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.

    >
    >I'm led to understand that there isn't a phone Verizon sells anymore that
    >*doesn't* have GPS. I know my five-month-old Verizon Kyocera 2325 has it,
    >though my somewhat older 3035e doesn't.


    The GPS scheme uses a technique where most of the work of the GPS protocol
    is done in the cell site, with the result that the location process works
    in many situations where standalone GPS units will not work, such as indoors
    and in city streets between tall buildings. While most current Verizon phones
    have the required hardware, it seems that the corresponding equipment in
    cell sites is not in a lot of places. And then, the connections to the
    PSAPs (911 centers) has to be done to pass the information on to them.
    We will know when the cell sites are updated
    when we hear about location-specific applications such as SMS ads telling
    you about the great deal on Big Macs at the nearby McDonalds :-(.

    www.snaptrack.com has an overview of the "Assisted GPS" product.




  12. #12
    Tom J
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    You may be just a little behind the curve. A suspected double murderer just
    north of Atlanta, GA fled from police on foot while at the same time talking
    on his cell phone. They searched his home and found the cell phone records.
    Once they knew his phone, they put a trace on it, but by this time he was near
    Chicago and still headed north. They surrounded him in a hospital parking lot
    in Wisconsin, after putting down nail strips to take the tires out, with the
    cell phone still on sending a signal to every tower he passed.

    Tom J
    Seemed to work better than OnStar to me

    "CharlesH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Steven J Sobol <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >In alt.cellular John P Vassel <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    > >> news:[email protected]:
    > >>
    > >>> More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    > >>> 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    > >>> But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    > >>> a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.
    > >>
    > >> And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.

    > >
    > >I'm led to understand that there isn't a phone Verizon sells anymore that
    > >*doesn't* have GPS. I know my five-month-old Verizon Kyocera 2325 has it,
    > >though my somewhat older 3035e doesn't.

    >
    > The GPS scheme uses a technique where most of the work of the GPS protocol
    > is done in the cell site, with the result that the location process works
    > in many situations where standalone GPS units will not work, such as indoors
    > and in city streets between tall buildings. While most current Verizon

    phones
    > have the required hardware, it seems that the corresponding equipment in
    > cell sites is not in a lot of places. And then, the connections to the
    > PSAPs (911 centers) has to be done to pass the information on to them.
    > We will know when the cell sites are updated
    > when we hear about location-specific applications such as SMS ads telling
    > you about the great deal on Big Macs at the nearby McDonalds :-(.
    >
    > www.snaptrack.com has an overview of the "Assisted GPS" product.
    >






  13. #13
    Tom J
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    You may be just a little behind the curve. A suspected double murderer just
    north of Atlanta, GA fled from police on foot while at the same time talking
    on his cell phone. They searched his home and found the cell phone records.
    Once they knew his phone, they put a trace on it, but by this time he was near
    Chicago and still headed north. They surrounded him in a hospital parking lot
    in Wisconsin, after putting down nail strips to take the tires out, with the
    cell phone still on sending a signal to every tower he passed.

    Tom J
    Seemed to work better than OnStar to me

    "CharlesH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Steven J Sobol <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >In alt.cellular John P Vassel <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> David Lesher <[email protected]> wrote in
    > >> news:[email protected]:
    > >>
    > >>> More exact schemes use in effect ping timing; you are 3 ms from Cell
    > >>> 34D, 4 ms from Cell 56Q, and 6 ms from Cell 66R; where are you?
    > >>> But it appears this scheme is not fulfilling the FCC specs. Installing
    > >>> a GPS rx in each phone is the alternative.
    > >>
    > >> And has already been started by nextel, and perhaps others.

    > >
    > >I'm led to understand that there isn't a phone Verizon sells anymore that
    > >*doesn't* have GPS. I know my five-month-old Verizon Kyocera 2325 has it,
    > >though my somewhat older 3035e doesn't.

    >
    > The GPS scheme uses a technique where most of the work of the GPS protocol
    > is done in the cell site, with the result that the location process works
    > in many situations where standalone GPS units will not work, such as indoors
    > and in city streets between tall buildings. While most current Verizon

    phones
    > have the required hardware, it seems that the corresponding equipment in
    > cell sites is not in a lot of places. And then, the connections to the
    > PSAPs (911 centers) has to be done to pass the information on to them.
    > We will know when the cell sites are updated
    > when we hear about location-specific applications such as SMS ads telling
    > you about the great deal on Big Macs at the nearby McDonalds :-(.
    >
    > www.snaptrack.com has an overview of the "Assisted GPS" product.
    >






  14. #14
    John P Vassel
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    "Tom J" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > You may be just a little behind the curve.


    At least two of the nextel phones have true GPS recievers built into
    them. They will send their location via nextel after a few seconds of
    connection. It's intent is to be used in conjunction with local info
    services. In the event the phone doesnt have a satelite lock, the tower
    it's talking to will be used. Kinda neat, now if someone would build a
    java app to use this reciever for geocaching info I'd have one less
    device on my hands...

    john



  15. #15
    John P Vassel
    Guest

    Re: cell phones and location fixing

    "Tom J" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > You may be just a little behind the curve.


    At least two of the nextel phones have true GPS recievers built into
    them. They will send their location via nextel after a few seconds of
    connection. It's intent is to be used in conjunction with local info
    services. In the event the phone doesnt have a satelite lock, the tower
    it's talking to will be used. Kinda neat, now if someone would build a
    java app to use this reciever for geocaching info I'd have one less
    device on my hands...

    john



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