cell phone use in hospitals

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 04:03:58 GMT, "John Eckart" <[email protected]>
posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

>"Al Klein" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:36:03 GMT, "John Eckart" <[email protected]>
>> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

>> >Doesn't CDMA use spread-spectrum technology which transmits on more than one frequency at a time? So would that, in itself, cause more interference?

>> No, it would cause less to some devices and the same amount to the
>> rest.

>Why would that, exactly?

Peak power is less, so devices sensitive to peak power would get more
interference from TDMA. Devices sensitive to average power would get
the same interference if the phones were both running the same power,
and less from a phone running less power. Devices getting
interference from a coherent signal won't get much interference, if
any, from a CDMA phone.

>> >Just because you can *hear* TDMA better over a speaker than CDMA doesn't necessarily mean that it causes *more* interference. The two modes are still radiating energy which are capable of causing interference to electronic equipment.

>> The sensitivity of devices to interference depends on peak power, not
>> average power, making TDMA much more capable of interfering.

>What is the PEP of CDMA and TDMA?

On a single frequency, CDMA output is virtually nil. PEP and average
power on FM are the same. But there's a difference between peak power
and average power.

Look at it this way: If you produce a signal that's 1ms of 1,000
volts and 999 ms of 0 volts, the average voltage is 1 volt. But if
you connect it to a 100 watt light bulb, you'll blow the bulb out -
with a 1 volt signal.

>> >One possible reason why some hospitals allow cell phones while others don't could be because some hospitals could be using older equipment which may be more susceptible to RFI while other hospitals with newer equipment can handle it better due to its
better electronics, design and shielding.

>> Hospitals don't test their equipment for susceptibility to
>> interference to cell phones, so they wouldn't know.

>I would think modern medical equipment would be tested for various forms of interference, and would have to pass FCC regulations for not causing interference.

Not causing, yes, and most of it fails, so it can't be used in a
residential setting. The FCC isn't concerned with whether your BP
monitor interferes with your EKG, or whether it interferes with it.
They're only concerned that you don't use commercial devices (those
that cause interference) in residential settings unless you have no
right to complain about the interference.

For instance, ALL TV sets can be interfered with by all sorts of
devices that are working properly.

---

› See More: cell phone use in hospitals

I don't know if cell phones are a good idea or not in hospitals. I can
tell you that as a resident surgeon my Nextel's hands free auto answer
feature was great. I could take speaker phone calls from junior
residents and the attendings while in the middle of a case. Very
efficient. What helped was when the hospital installed a Nextel
signal booster to help the ER nurses/docs who were given Nextels to
communicate (Helped all Nextels in the hospital).

None of my cases were affected by cell use. Anesthesia did not seem
to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
OR?

Now that I am an attending I stopped using my cell phone in the OR.
That is because it won't work in my new hospital, no signal booster.




"Rich Sakalas" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house wireless
> system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
> with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
> extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work with
> operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
>
> To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
> "maryann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
> > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
> > to the patients.
> >
> > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come out
> > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
> > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
> > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.

I don't know if cell phones are a good idea or not in hospitals. I can
tell you that as a resident surgeon my Nextel's hands free auto answer
feature was great. I could take speaker phone calls from junior
residents and the attendings while in the middle of a case. Very
efficient. What helped was when the hospital installed a Nextel
signal booster to help the ER nurses/docs who were given Nextels to
communicate (Helped all Nextels in the hospital).

None of my cases were affected by cell use. Anesthesia did not seem
to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
OR?

Now that I am an attending I stopped using my cell phone in the OR.
That is because it won't work in my new hospital, no signal booster.




"Rich Sakalas" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house wireless
> system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
> with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
> extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work with
> operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
>
> To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
> "maryann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
> > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
> > to the patients.
> >
> > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come out
> > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears to
> > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
> > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.

12 months ago I read clip from pharmaceutical magazine . They observed a
change on infusion pump from 9 to 999 ml/ hour after a call was initiated.
No model of the phone or pump was given . Significant? Yeah you may be
dead.
"TPD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't know if cell phones are a good idea or not in hospitals. I can
> tell you that as a resident surgeon my Nextel's hands free auto answer
> feature was great. I could take speaker phone calls from junior
> residents and the attendings while in the middle of a case. Very
> efficient. What helped was when the hospital installed a Nextel
> signal booster to help the ER nurses/docs who were given Nextels to
> communicate (Helped all Nextels in the hospital).
>
> None of my cases were affected by cell use. Anesthesia did not seem
> to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
> use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
> OR?
>
> Now that I am an attending I stopped using my cell phone in the OR.
> That is because it won't work in my new hospital, no signal booster.
>
>
>
>
> "Rich Sakalas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house
wireless
> > system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
> > with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
> > extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work
with
> > operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
> >
> > To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
> > "maryann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
> > > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
> > > to the patients.
> > >
> > > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come
out
> > > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears
to
> > > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
> > > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.

12 months ago I read clip from pharmaceutical magazine . They observed a
change on infusion pump from 9 to 999 ml/ hour after a call was initiated.
No model of the phone or pump was given . Significant? Yeah you may be
dead.
"TPD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't know if cell phones are a good idea or not in hospitals. I can
> tell you that as a resident surgeon my Nextel's hands free auto answer
> feature was great. I could take speaker phone calls from junior
> residents and the attendings while in the middle of a case. Very
> efficient. What helped was when the hospital installed a Nextel
> signal booster to help the ER nurses/docs who were given Nextels to
> communicate (Helped all Nextels in the hospital).
>
> None of my cases were affected by cell use. Anesthesia did not seem
> to care. On the other hand the ICU and CCU did not like cell phone
> use. I just could not figure out why they were any different than the
> OR?
>
> Now that I am an attending I stopped using my cell phone in the OR.
> That is because it won't work in my new hospital, no signal booster.
>
>
>
>
> "Rich Sakalas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > What you think may be a cellphone might be a dedicated in - house
wireless
> > system. I work for a business communications systems vendor and we work
> > with two different ones. They are similar to a cell phone and are
> > extensions off of the company's / hospital's PBX. The two that we work
with
> > operate in the 1.9 GHz band.
> >
> > To reply remove "nonsense" from my email address
> > "maryann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > There was a thread here a few months ago about cell phone use in
> > > hospitals, with plenty of self righteous talk about the "dangers"
> > > to the patients.
> > >
> > > I spent all of today in John Muir Hospital waiting for the gf to come
out
> > > of surgery, and noticed that each and every hospital employee appears
to
> > > be equipped with a cell phone. Needless to say, they
> > > seem to think they won't kill the patients that way.

| >bit unreligious IMO. Entering a hospital, you usually supposed to turn
| >the Cell Phone off since Cell Phones uses Microwave Transmissions
|
| Which has what to do with hospitals? Are you afraid the patients will
| be cooked?

Medical instrumentation is not usually not properly hardened (interference
proofed). RF form cell phone can play havoc with these devices. In some
cases a malfunction can kill.

| >bit unreligious IMO. Entering a hospital, you usually supposed to turn
| >the Cell Phone off since Cell Phones uses Microwave Transmissions
|
| Which has what to do with hospitals? Are you afraid the patients will
| be cooked?

Medical instrumentation is not usually not properly hardened (interference
proofed). RF form cell phone can play havoc with these devices. In some
cases a malfunction can kill.

| > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that
Motorola
| >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the
same
| >Alltel sticker as mine :-)
|
| LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
| tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.
|
| I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
| engineering.

Actually there is something special about the phones. They have been tested
and certified for the application something that is not done with general
wireless equipment.

| > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that
Motorola
| >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the
same
| >Alltel sticker as mine :-)
|
| LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
| tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.
|
| I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
| engineering.

Actually there is something special about the phones. They have been tested
and certified for the application something that is not done with general
wireless equipment.

I concur that there is stuff out there that has been tested and the RF
can cause malfunctions in equipment that can cause serious harm. On the
other hand, when I see people using the same Alltel or VZW phone that I
have, I really doubt if they got Motorola and the carrier to make a special
phone just for them. I do turn my stuff off when in the hospital, as the
signs request, but it is a bit annoying to see widespread use of the
identical equipment by the same staff that screams at me for having a
powered down phone. What is even odder is that they never questioned the
five watt Motorola MX-330 on 450 mhz that probably had a lot more potential
to cause problems or the 800 mhz Motorola STX at three watts. It was just
c-phones they were hysterical about.

Again, I have no issue with turning the stuff off and I do so. Life is
too important to chance. I would just like to see some intelligence applied.


--
Thomas M. Goethe




"Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> | > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that
> Motorola
> | >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the
> same
> | >Alltel sticker as mine :-)
> |
> | LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
> | tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.
> |
> | I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
> | engineering.
>
> Actually there is something special about the phones. They have been
tested
> and certified for the application something that is not done with general
> wireless equipment.
>
>

I concur that there is stuff out there that has been tested and the RF
can cause malfunctions in equipment that can cause serious harm. On the
other hand, when I see people using the same Alltel or VZW phone that I
have, I really doubt if they got Motorola and the carrier to make a special
phone just for them. I do turn my stuff off when in the hospital, as the
signs request, but it is a bit annoying to see widespread use of the
identical equipment by the same staff that screams at me for having a
powered down phone. What is even odder is that they never questioned the
five watt Motorola MX-330 on 450 mhz that probably had a lot more potential
to cause problems or the 800 mhz Motorola STX at three watts. It was just
c-phones they were hysterical about.

Again, I have no issue with turning the stuff off and I do so. Life is
too important to chance. I would just like to see some intelligence applied.


--
Thomas M. Goethe




"Not Me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> | > Nah, it was just people who were clueless. I don't think that
> Motorola
> | >makes special V60's for medical personnel, especially when it had the
> same
> | >Alltel sticker as mine :-)
> |
> | LOL. I noticed the same thing in the local hospital, even though they
> | tried to tell me that there was something special about the phones.
> |
> | I promise to not practice medicine if those doctors don't practice
> | engineering.
>
> Actually there is something special about the phones. They have been
tested
> and certified for the application something that is not done with general
> wireless equipment.
>
>

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:01:04 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<[email protected]> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

>>> Add in a whole bunch more in teh
>>>way of piping and other in-the-wall metallic infrastructure, and radio
>>>signals run into trouble...

>>Only deep inside the building and then only in some buildings.

>Every room has water supply so three sets of pipes there, lots more
>electrical conduit, oxygen piping, etc. reflections aplenty, corners,
>right angles, etc.

Not in external walls usually, so no, unless the cell is inside the
building. The pipes, etc., might actually act as reflectors.

>Certainly not a Farady Cage, but a lot less EM friendly than an open field
>or a light commercial structure.

A "light commercial structure" can be a steel frame building and a
hospital can be wood frame or stone/brick, making the "light
commercial structure" MUCH more of a Faraday cage. Do some actual
field measurements.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:01:04 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<[email protected]> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

>>> Add in a whole bunch more in teh
>>>way of piping and other in-the-wall metallic infrastructure, and radio
>>>signals run into trouble...

>>Only deep inside the building and then only in some buildings.

>Every room has water supply so three sets of pipes there, lots more
>electrical conduit, oxygen piping, etc. reflections aplenty, corners,
>right angles, etc.

Not in external walls usually, so no, unless the cell is inside the
building. The pipes, etc., might actually act as reflectors.

>Certainly not a Farady Cage, but a lot less EM friendly than an open field
>or a light commercial structure.

A "light commercial structure" can be a steel frame building and a
hospital can be wood frame or stone/brick, making the "light
commercial structure" MUCH more of a Faraday cage. Do some actual
field measurements.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:15:14 -0500, Isaiah Beard
<[email protected]> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

>Well, if true, I'd have to say the patients are more at risk from Nextel
>phones than anything else. Have you seen/hear the amount of
>interference those things put out? Put a Nextel phone near any monitor
>or set of speakers and have it place a call. I'm not sure if it's
>transmitter output, the frequency range they're using, or poor
>filtering

Just plain old TDMA technology.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:15:14 -0500, Isaiah Beard
<[email protected]> posted in alt.cellular.verizon:

>Well, if true, I'd have to say the patients are more at risk from Nextel
>phones than anything else. Have you seen/hear the amount of
>interference those things put out? Put a Nextel phone near any monitor
>or set of speakers and have it place a call. I'm not sure if it's
>transmitter output, the frequency range they're using, or poor
>filtering

Just plain old TDMA technology.