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  1. #1
    Han
    Guest

    Did anyone ever manage to be allowed to use a smartphone on a flight
    while the thing is in flight-mode? For example P800/900 or Nokia
    6600/3650/N-Gage and all? It would seem N-Gage looks sufficiently
    NOT like a phone to use it. :-) But I've never managed to use 3650
    outside of the lavatories.

    Is this ever going to happen?? PDA's ARE allowed. Note that my PDA
    turns on WiFi and Bluetooth unless I specifically turn it off.. This
    should be a greater risk than a phone in flight-mode? (Which doesn't
    transmit anything beyond light from the display..

    Note that I am of course talking about use while in mid-flight, not
    takeoff and landing or even taxiing.




    See More: Any luck using phones in flight mode?




  2. #2
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Did anyone ever manage to be allowed to use a smartphone on a flight
    > while the thing is in flight-mode? For example P800/900 or Nokia
    > 6600/3650/N-Gage and all? It would seem N-Gage looks sufficiently
    > NOT like a phone to use it. :-) But I've never managed to use 3650
    > outside of the lavatories.
    >
    > Is this ever going to happen?? PDA's ARE allowed. Note that my PDA
    > turns on WiFi and Bluetooth unless I specifically turn it off.. This
    > should be a greater risk than a phone in flight-mode? (Which doesn't
    > transmit anything beyond light from the display..
    >
    > Note that I am of course talking about use while in mid-flight, not
    > takeoff and landing or even taxiing.


    Please post all flights on which you intend travelling, so I can avoid
    them.

    Ivor






  3. #3
    mrtravelkay
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?



    Ivor Jones wrote:

    > "Han" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Did anyone ever manage to be allowed to use a smartphone on a flight
    >>while the thing is in flight-mode? For example P800/900 or Nokia
    >>6600/3650/N-Gage and all? It would seem N-Gage looks sufficiently
    >>NOT like a phone to use it. :-) But I've never managed to use 3650
    >>outside of the lavatories.
    >>
    >>Is this ever going to happen?? PDA's ARE allowed. Note that my PDA
    >>turns on WiFi and Bluetooth unless I specifically turn it off.. This
    >>should be a greater risk than a phone in flight-mode? (Which doesn't
    >>transmit anything beyond light from the display..
    >>
    >>Note that I am of course talking about use while in mid-flight, not
    >>takeoff and landing or even taxiing.

    >
    >
    > Please post all flights on which you intend travelling, so I can avoid
    > them.
    >


    If the phone is in "flight-mode", this means it is not transmitting as a
    cell phone. The purpose of flight mode is to use the other features of
    the phone in flight. Why would this cause you to want to avoid the
    flight. It would be the same as using a game boy.




  4. #4
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "mrtravelkay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    > Ivor Jones wrote:


    > > Please post all flights on which you intend travelling, so I can avoid
    > > them.
    > >

    >
    > If the phone is in "flight-mode", this means it is not transmitting as a
    > cell phone. The purpose of flight mode is to use the other features of
    > the phone in flight. Why would this cause you to want to avoid the
    > flight. It would be the same as using a game boy.


    There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on aircraft
    and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one switched
    on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of the
    phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.

    The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want to
    use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least on
    any plane I'm on..!

    Ivor






  5. #5
    Han
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?

    On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:12:00 -0000, "Ivor Jones"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on aircraft
    >and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one switched
    >on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of the
    >phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.
    >
    >The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want to
    >use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least on
    >any plane I'm on..!


    Ok.. again: With PDA's I know FOR SURE that many of the people who use
    them don't know how to disable WiFi and/or Bluetooth on them. These
    devices WILL be trasnsmitting, trying to locate other devices. Yet
    they are ALLOWED on planes, no questions asked.

    Note that smartphones can be used for a lot more than just play games
    besides making calls; you can quite comfortably download your e-mail
    on them before the flight and read and answer e-mail while on the
    flight and then send afterwards. Or for example reading e-books on
    them. Or Avant-Go stored websites. Soon they will come with foldable
    keyboards so you can actually write stuff like you would on a laptop
    or PDA.

    Also the smartphones I'm talking about include a function to
    completely disable the phone-part of it. Meaning you can remove the
    SIM (so the phone doesn't even start to look for a network) and the
    'phone' application itself doesn't start up either. (Again, I'm not
    asking you to believe this: many PDA's and laptops transmit lots of
    things FOR SURE, and airlines don't seem all too bothered about it!)

    So the situation now is that you can use N-Gage just because it LOOKS
    like a game-boy. And you can use XDA, just because it LOOKS like a
    PDA. However you cannot use 6600 because it looks like a phone....

    Somehow this doesn't seem like a very thorough transparent policy. To
    improve safety, I think greater scrutiny of network-enabled PDA's and
    laptops is definitely caled for, more so than banning devices just
    because some clueless flight attendant thinks something looks like a
    phone.




  6. #6
    mrtravelkay
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?

    Ivor Jones wrote:
    >
    > There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on aircraft
    > and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one switched
    > on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of the
    > phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.


    Many new laptops come with Wifi or Cellular access modules.
    It's no different.

    >
    > The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want to
    > use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least on
    > any plane I'm on..!


    What is the difference in "danger" between using something that looks
    like a phone and has other applications, or something that doesn't look
    like a phone and has a phone in it? As long as the phone function is
    turned off, what is the difference?




  7. #7
    nobody
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?

    Han wrote:
    > So the situation now is that you can use N-Gage just because it LOOKS
    > like a game-boy. And you can use XDA, just because it LOOKS like a
    > PDA. However you cannot use 6600 because it looks like a phone....


    In the USA, which lagged behind in mobile technology and has just recently
    caught up, people aren't used yet to phones being PDAs.

    Best bet would be the print the page of your handset's manual that documents
    the "aircraft" function. As you board aircraft, ask a flight attendant to
    verify with captain if it will be ok to use your phone/pda combo (handing her
    the sheet showing the aircraft mode stuff).

    Make sure you don't have any games called "bombs" on your phone though :-)



  8. #8
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "mrtravelkay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Ivor Jones wrote:
    > >
    > > There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on

    aircraft
    > > and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one

    switched
    > > on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of

    the
    > > phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.

    >
    > Many new laptops come with Wifi or Cellular access modules.
    > It's no different.


    Different frequencies. The aircraft too has radio but not at cellular
    frequencies. RF at the frequencies used by phones are *known* to interfere
    with avionics. They may not, but do you want to be on a plane when it's
    found they do..?

    > > The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want

    to
    > > use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least

    on
    > > any plane I'm on..!

    >
    > What is the difference in "danger" between using something that looks
    > like a phone and has other applications, or something that doesn't look
    > like a phone and has a phone in it? As long as the phone function is
    > turned off, what is the difference?


    But can you be 100% *certain* that the *radio* functions (it is RF that
    interferes with the aircraft avionics) are switched off..? I don't want to
    find out they're not at 30,000 ft over the Atlantic..!


    Ivor (who loves flying but not crashing..!!)






  9. #9
    mrtravelkay
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?

    Ivor Jones wrote:
    > "mrtravelkay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]


    >>
    >>What is the difference in "danger" between using something that looks
    >>like a phone and has other applications, or something that doesn't look
    >>like a phone and has a phone in it? As long as the phone function is
    >>turned off, what is the difference?

    >
    >
    > But can you be 100% *certain* that the *radio* functions (it is RF that
    > interferes with the aircraft avionics) are switched off..? I don't want to
    > find out they're not at 30,000 ft over the Atlantic..!


    How would you be 100 percent certain that the thing that doesn't look
    like a phone has the phone functions turned off? Your concern seemed to
    be with what looks like a phone and has other features, rather than what
    looks like a game or pds, and also has phone features. Both are equally
    capable of doing whatever "damage" can be done from cellphones, since
    they both have cellphone capability. If phones are really that
    dangerous, why does the crew rely on customer's themselves to shut them
    off.




  10. #10
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "mrtravelkay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Ivor Jones wrote:
    > > "mrtravelkay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]

    >
    > >>
    > >>What is the difference in "danger" between using something that looks
    > >>like a phone and has other applications, or something that doesn't

    look
    > >>like a phone and has a phone in it? As long as the phone function is
    > >>turned off, what is the difference?

    > >
    > >
    > > But can you be 100% *certain* that the *radio* functions (it is RF

    that
    > > interferes with the aircraft avionics) are switched off..? I don't

    want to
    > > find out they're not at 30,000 ft over the Atlantic..!

    >
    > How would you be 100 percent certain that the thing that doesn't look
    > like a phone has the phone functions turned off? Your concern seemed to
    > be with what looks like a phone and has other features, rather than what
    > looks like a game or pds, and also has phone features. Both are equally
    > capable of doing whatever "damage" can be done from cellphones, since
    > they both have cellphone capability. If phones are really that
    > dangerous, why does the crew rely on customer's themselves to shut them
    > off.


    My concern is with anything that could cause interference with the
    essential systems on the aircraft. What it looks like is irrelevant and I
    made no comment on appearance.

    As to why some devices are allowed and why some aren't I don't know. I
    just don't want to find out something is causing a problem when I've got
    no escape route..! Better safe than dead IMHO. Do you *need* the thing
    anyway..? Personally when I'm on a flight I'm usually dog tired and all I
    want to do is sleep, never mind phone people or play silly games..!

    Ivor





  11. #11
    Bob Myers
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on aircraft
    > and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one switched
    > on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of the
    > phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.
    >
    > The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want to
    > use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least on
    > any plane I'm on..!


    Nonsense. There is no special danger to the AIRCRAFT from a
    cell phone; the reason that cell phone usage in-flight is restricted
    has to do with the potential for interference with the ground-based
    cell network, not that there is some special problem with cell phone
    related to aircraft avionics. It has already been shown (look up the
    UK CAA report on this very subject) that it is extremely unlikely
    for a cell phone to interfere in ANY way with aircraft operation
    (the conditions required for even slight interference require that
    the phone be located VERY close to the avionics device in
    question).

    A cell phone in "flight mode" poses no more danger to the aircraft
    operation than any other type of electronic device - and the supposed
    dangers from electronic devices in general has been incredibly over-
    stated.


    Bob M.






  12. #12
    Bob Myers
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > Different frequencies. The aircraft too has radio but not at cellular
    > frequencies. RF at the frequencies used by phones are *known* to interfere
    > with avionics.


    Wrong. The frequencies used by aircraft radio (both communications
    and radionavigation systems) are in the mid-VHF range, roughly
    around 120 MHz. ALL types of cell phones operate at frequencies
    much higher than this, and pose no special threat to avionics operation.
    Interference with aircraft avionics from ANY electronic device would
    come from unintended emissions, which are no more likely from cell
    phones than from any other electronic device. The earlier posters'
    points regarding Bluetooth and wireless LAN functions in laptops, for
    instance, are very valid.

    Please see the report from the UK Civil Aviation Authority,
    "CAA Paper 2003/03: Effects of Interference from Cellular Telephones
    on Aircraft Avionics Equipment" for details (it's available from
    www.caa.co.uk). The bottom line was the cellular telephone interference
    is EXTREMELY unlikely to cause any significant problem with
    aircraft avionics, and the conditions required for interference would
    only be found if the cell phone in question were essentially right next
    to the equipment being interfered with (i.e., if the pilot was using
    a cell phone right next to a nav receiver, you might see some signs
    of slight interference - otherwise, no).

    There are very valid reasons for not using a cell phone in-flight, but
    they have to do with the potential for interference with the ground-based
    cell phone system, not the aircraft.

    Bob M.





  13. #13
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?


    "Bob Myers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    > > There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on

    aircraft
    > > and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one

    switched
    > > on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of

    the
    > > phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.
    > >
    > > The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want

    to
    > > use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least

    on
    > > any plane I'm on..!

    >
    > Nonsense. There is no special danger to the AIRCRAFT from a
    > cell phone; the reason that cell phone usage in-flight is restricted
    > has to do with the potential for interference with the ground-based
    > cell network, not that there is some special problem with cell phone
    > related to aircraft avionics. It has already been shown (look up the
    > UK CAA report on this very subject) that it is extremely unlikely
    > for a cell phone to interfere in ANY way with aircraft operation
    > (the conditions required for even slight interference require that
    > the phone be located VERY close to the avionics device in
    > question).
    >
    > A cell phone in "flight mode" poses no more danger to the aircraft
    > operation than any other type of electronic device - and the supposed
    > dangers from electronic devices in general has been incredibly over-
    > stated.


    Well you can believe what you like, but don't use a phone on any aircraft
    I'm on. Like I said before, better safe than dead.

    Ivor





  14. #14
    Binyamin Dissen
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?

    On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:54:18 GMT mrtravelkay <[email protected]> wrote:

    :>How would you be 100 percent certain that the thing that doesn't look
    :>like a phone has the phone functions turned off? Your concern seemed to
    :>be with what looks like a phone and has other features, rather than what
    :>looks like a game or pds, and also has phone features. Both are equally
    :>capable of doing whatever "damage" can be done from cellphones, since
    :>they both have cellphone capability. If phones are really that
    :>dangerous, why does the crew rely on customer's themselves to shut them
    :>off.

    Don't matter.

    The FAA doesn't prohibit phones because of danger.

    The FCC does because they swamp the cells.

    --
    Binyamin Dissen <[email protected]>
    http://www.dissensoftware.com



  15. #15
    DALing
    Guest

    Re: Any luck using phones in flight mode?

    you smoking something good??? RF at the frequencies of cell phones has been
    shown to NOT affect either communication or avionics. (many studies - the
    reason for not allowing cell phones is FCC - NOT FAA - or whatever your
    particular flavour of aviation alphabet soup is) The reason for not
    allowing "transmitters" (more specifically "radios") on aircraft has to do
    with IF (that's "intermediate frequencies") which are used when converting
    the signal to audio (heterdyne) and the emissions of THOSE frequencies is
    where the interference comes from. POTENTIALLY, cell phones have an IF
    emission, but the frequencies (and radiated power very low) are WAY above
    any NEAR the aircraft nav/com band and not even a harmonic issue. (don't
    know about military frequencies, though and they don't matter here, anyway)

    LEARN a little about RFI before you try to come across as an expert.

    "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "mrtravelkay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Ivor Jones wrote:
    > > >
    > > > There are good reasons why phones are not permitted to be used on

    > aircraft
    > > > and I for one don't want to be on a plane where someone has one

    > switched
    > > > on. The so-called "flight" mode might switch off the radio sections of

    > the
    > > > phone, on the other hand it might not and I don't want to be there.

    > >
    > > Many new laptops come with Wifi or Cellular access modules.
    > > It's no different.

    >
    > Different frequencies. The aircraft too has radio but not at cellular
    > frequencies. RF at the frequencies used by phones are *known* to interfere
    > with avionics. They may not, but do you want to be on a plane when it's
    > found they do..?
    >
    > > > The purpose of a phone is to make and receive phone calls. If you want

    > to
    > > > use a game boy, whatever that is, then use one, not a phone. At least

    > on
    > > > any plane I'm on..!

    > >
    > > What is the difference in "danger" between using something that looks
    > > like a phone and has other applications, or something that doesn't look
    > > like a phone and has a phone in it? As long as the phone function is
    > > turned off, what is the difference?

    >
    > But can you be 100% *certain* that the *radio* functions (it is RF that
    > interferes with the aircraft avionics) are switched off..? I don't want to
    > find out they're not at 30,000 ft over the Atlantic..!
    >
    >
    > Ivor (who loves flying but not crashing..!!)
    >
    >
    >





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