Whats the delay with Orange PAYG and 6600??

Does anybody know why Orange UK have not yet got the nokia 6600 on
payg? I know it was supposed to be released quite a few months back
but it is still on their site as coming soon (and many other sites
too). I know its had a few hiccups but i would have thought these
would have been sorted by now. afaik the latest orange firmware is
3.49.2

TIA,

Chris

---

› See More: Whats the delay with Orange PAYG and 6600??

Chris, I advise you to stay well away from Orange, especially if it's the
Nokia 6600 you want.

Orange commission Nokia to write a special firmware version for their
phones. I presume (though I'm no expert) that this is because of significant
differences in the manner in which the Orange network functions (eg
provision of 'line 2', different voicemail messaging etc).

Despite Orange always using the argument that they test their handsets more
extensively than others and telling us this is why they are often the last
network to offer new handsets Vodafone and O2 though not T-Mobile have had
the Nokia 6600 for ages now), they launched the Nokia 6600 with serious
bugs.

These ranged from minor irritations such as missing menu provision for call
divert and call barring to more serious omissions such as the complete
absence of Manual/Automatic network selection. In view of varying text
pricing when roaming, the inability to choose is quite significant. This
feature is meant to be on the handset and is in Nokia's full handset specs.

Despite this, Orange sold this phone on monthly contract. They continued to
do so even after they were aware that the handset did not comply with the
manufacturers specification. It is highly likley therefore that Orange
flouted the Sale of Goods Act. When I approached Orange about this, it took
something like 10 phone calls to find an agent who could get much beyond the
standard Orange greeting and saying that they were 'sorry'. After countless
un-returned phone calls and a great deal od persistance on my part, the
matter was never resolved. I was told it was being 'looked at'. When I asked
what happens next, I was just told I had to keep on phoning until they had a
fix.

Customer service?

No. Definately not.

I know they are a little more expensive but I'm with Vodafone now. Orange
agreed to cancel my contract and refund the price of the phone. I have a
Nokia 6600 on Vodafone and it works perfectly and exactly in accordance with
specifications. To the nest of my knowledge, so too do O2's Nokia 6600
handsets.

Orange....don't go there!

Cheap they may be in some respects but you'll regret it!

John.

"eggster2k" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anybody know why Orange UK have not yet got the nokia 6600 on
> payg? I know it was supposed to be released quite a few months back
> but it is still on their site as coming soon (and many other sites
> too). I know its had a few hiccups but i would have thought these
> would have been sorted by now. afaik the latest orange firmware is
> 3.49.2
>
> TIA,
>
> Chris

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:11:44 -0000, "John Turner" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I presume (though I'm no expert) that this is because of significant
>differences in the manner in which the Orange network functions (eg
>provision of 'line 2', different voicemail messaging etc).

No, Orange uses standard facilities all set out in the GSM
specifications.

However, Nokia make handsets full of bugs in their firmware.


--

Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
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If this is so Ian, can you explain why my Nokia 6600 from Voadfone is fine
and misses no menu items?

With regards to GSM standards, that's only part of the picture. The fact
remains that there are differences in the way Orange operates compared to
other networks. For example, with Orange, I would have needed a SIM update
to make a new handset work properly. This doesn't happen with Vodafone.

Whatever the reason for such differences, it is a matter of fact that Orange
handsets often have specially commissioned software compared to the same
handset on other networks.

Irrespective of who writes the software, in law, ensuring an item complies
with the description advertized to sell is the responsibilty of the seller.
The seller in this instance was Orange. It was Orange's responsibility to
ensure the handset functioned according to it's specifications. If it wasn't
their responsibility, why on earth do they tell us that they 'extensively
test' their handsets (when evidently they don't)?

John.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:11:44 -0000, "John Turner" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I presume (though I'm no expert) that this is because of significant
> >differences in the manner in which the Orange network functions (eg
> >provision of 'line 2', different voicemail messaging etc).
>
> No, Orange uses standard facilities all set out in the GSM
> specifications.
>
> However, Nokia make handsets full of bugs in their firmware.
>
>
> --
>
> Iain
> the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
> http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
> Browse now while stocks last!

"John Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If this is so Ian, can you explain why my Nokia 6600 from Voadfone is fine
> and misses no menu items?

Because Orange implement the SIM application toolkit differently.

>
> With regards to GSM standards, that's only part of the picture. The fact
> remains that there are differences in the way Orange operates compared to
> other networks. For example, with Orange, I would have needed a SIM update
> to make a new handset work properly. This doesn't happen with Vodafone.

Nope. Most Nokias ship with ALS disabled, the SIM update from Orange
*apparently* switches this on and at the same time updates the preferred
networks list for when you are roaming (so the first thing you want to do is
stick the SIM in an Ericsson and delete the list).

>
> Whatever the reason for such differences, it is a matter of fact that
Orange
> handsets often have specially commissioned software compared to the same
> handset on other networks.

No they don't. They have a custom PPM pack, but the basic firmware is
exactly the same.

>
> Irrespective of who writes the software, in law, ensuring an item complies
> with the description advertized to sell is the responsibilty of the
seller.
> The seller in this instance was Orange. It was Orange's responsibility to
> ensure the handset functioned according to it's specifications. If it
wasn't
> their responsibility, why on earth do they tell us that they 'extensively
> test' their handsets (when evidently they don't)?

The only reason Orange handsets take longer to appear is that theycan't
leave the bloody manuals well alone and insist on sticking ****ty badges all
over the handset. There's no reason why you can't use generic GSM stock on
Orange so long as you activate ALS (if you need line 2 support).

--
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>>> http://www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> http://www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:40:28 -0000, "John Turner" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>If this is so Ian, can you explain why my Nokia 6600 from Voadfone is fine

No, but I can hazard three guesses:

1. It is a different firmware revision with different bugs

2. The bugs only show when you use particular combinations of
features, which are not available on Vodafone (ALS or HSCSD for
example)

3. Your previous one was faulty.

>and misses no menu items?

That's because Vodafone don't use the built-in facilities to hide menu
items.

You should be aware that Nokia do not normally make special versions
of firmware for Orange. Motorola do, but not Nokia. The additional
features Orange uses are supported by the generic firmware.


--

Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
Browse now while stocks last!

Richard,

Enlightening comments from someone who obviously knows about these things.
But still the fact remains that Orange badged Nokia 6600 had several menu
omissions and, having extensively researched this matter, this isn't a
problem with the handset on other networks.

So something somewhere has messed up the Orange version of the Nokia 6600
and Orange have carried on selling them despite knowing about it and knowing
that as yet they have no resolution.

John.
"Richard Colton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If this is so Ian, can you explain why my Nokia 6600 from Voadfone is
fine
> > and misses no menu items?
>
> Because Orange implement the SIM application toolkit differently.
>
> >
> > With regards to GSM standards, that's only part of the picture. The fact
> > remains that there are differences in the way Orange operates compared
to
> > other networks. For example, with Orange, I would have needed a SIM
update
> > to make a new handset work properly. This doesn't happen with Vodafone.
>
> Nope. Most Nokias ship with ALS disabled, the SIM update from Orange
> *apparently* switches this on and at the same time updates the preferred
> networks list for when you are roaming (so the first thing you want to do
is
> stick the SIM in an Ericsson and delete the list).
>
> >
> > Whatever the reason for such differences, it is a matter of fact that
> Orange
> > handsets often have specially commissioned software compared to the same
> > handset on other networks.
>
> No they don't. They have a custom PPM pack, but the basic firmware is
> exactly the same.
>
> >
> > Irrespective of who writes the software, in law, ensuring an item
complies
> > with the description advertized to sell is the responsibilty of the
> seller.
> > The seller in this instance was Orange. It was Orange's responsibility
to
> > ensure the handset functioned according to it's specifications. If it
> wasn't
> > their responsibility, why on earth do they tell us that they
'extensively
> > test' their handsets (when evidently they don't)?
>
> The only reason Orange handsets take longer to appear is that theycan't
> leave the bloody manuals well alone and insist on sticking ****ty badges
all
> over the handset. There's no reason why you can't use generic GSM stock
on
> Orange so long as you activate ALS (if you need line 2 support).
>
> --
> >>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
> >>> http://www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
> >>> http://www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>
>

I should point out that as I'm no engineer, some of what I say is what I
have been told by Orange. I guess with hindset, I need to forget all the
rubbish and excuses I've been fed by them over the years.

For instance, I was definately told that Nokia write a software version
especially for Orange and that this is why it's their fault and not
Orange's.

I was told that the reason for the dealy in the launch of handsets compared
to others (ie the much delayed Nokia 6310i and more recently the 6600) was
because of 'extensive handset testing'.

I think their staff just seem to tell a pack of lies and make it all up as
they go along. Would be nice if there was some way of speaking to people
with a technical aptitude. I've just had that good fortune with Vodafone.
I've had problems with using GPRS to send photos to my website by FTP. The
guy I was speaking to at Vodafone sounded like an engineer! We've not found
a solution yet but it's reassuring that the very first time I've had to call
Vodafone still achieved much more than the I could have hoped to achieve in
what was tens of phone calls to Orange.

For the record, the FTP problem seems likely to do with my web space
provider's FTP server being unable to cope with the high latency of packet
data so probably not Vodafone's fault at all.

John.


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:40:28 -0000, "John Turner" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >If this is so Ian, can you explain why my Nokia 6600 from Voadfone is
fine
>
> No, but I can hazard three guesses:
>
> 1. It is a different firmware revision with different bugs
>
> 2. The bugs only show when you use particular combinations of
> features, which are not available on Vodafone (ALS or HSCSD for
> example)
>
> 3. Your previous one was faulty.
>
> >and misses no menu items?
>
> That's because Vodafone don't use the built-in facilities to hide menu
> items.
>
> You should be aware that Nokia do not normally make special versions
> of firmware for Orange. Motorola do, but not Nokia. The additional
> features Orange uses are supported by the generic firmware.
>
>
> --
>
> Iain
> the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
> http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
> Browse now while stocks last!

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:17:44 -0000, "John Turner" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>some of what I say is what I
>have been told by Orange. I guess with hindset, I need to forget all the
>rubbish and excuses I've been fed by them over the years.

The people you talk to at Orange know sod-all about mobile phones. If
they knew about them, they'd not be answering the phone in a call
centre!
>
>For instance, I was definately told that Nokia write a software version
>especially for Orange and that this is why it's their fault and not
>Orange's.

That defies logic. If they used standard Nokia firmware (and they do)
that would make any defects Nokia's fault. However, if they did used
specially customised firmware, that would make it more Orange's fault
for any defects, not Nokia's!

>I was told that the reason for the dealy in the launch of handsets compared
>to others (ie the much delayed Nokia 6310i and more recently the 6600) was
>because of 'extensive handset testing'.

Have you seen some of the utter **** that Orange have sold as mobile
phones? The MR1, the C520, and quite a few even greater lemons?

If they'd so much as switched them on and tried to make a call they'd
have known the handsets were garbage!

And they also reckoned to test warranty replacements: so how come they
sent me ones incapable of making a call, and even one that wouldn't
even power up?

I don't know what the Orange phone testing department is on, but it
must be seriously mind-altering.



--

Iain
the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
Browse now while stocks last!

"John Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I should point out that as I'm no engineer, some of what I say is what I
> have been told by Orange. I guess with hindset, I need to forget all the
> rubbish and excuses I've been fed by them over the years.

Damn good advice. Remember to poll 3 Orange tubbies and take the average of
the 3 answers.

>
> For instance, I was definately told that Nokia write a software version
> especially for Orange and that this is why it's their fault and not
> Orange's.

Nope, Nokia supply a custom PPM but at the end of the day if you're having a
problem you should get the supplier of the goods to sort them out, NOT the
manufacturer.

>
> I was told that the reason for the dealy in the launch of handsets
compared
> to others (ie the much delayed Nokia 6310i and more recently the 6600) was
> because of 'extensive handset testing'.

Yup, that's what they always say. I believe Orange do extensively test
handsets prior to releasing them, but they also spend the time bastardising
the manuals and fascias of the phones.

>
> I think their staff just seem to tell a pack of lies and make it all up as
> they go along. Would be nice if there was some way of speaking to people
> with a technical aptitude.

You need Steve Terry's phone number list. Head over to uk.telecom.mobile
and ask nicely. I believe Orange have recently tried to "gag" him, but
there are copies of it all over the place. :-)

<snippy>

--
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>>> http://www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> http://www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<

John Turner posted the following for all to hear...
> These ranged from minor irritations such as missing menu provision for call
> divert and call barring

Easily controlled with GSM codes.

> to more serious omissions such as the complete
> absence of Manual/Automatic network selection.

This is not unique to the 6600 - there are many models where the menu is
deliberately hidden. To what end I don't know, possibly to make sure
that when roaming you lock onto an 'orange-freindly' network.
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John Turner posted the following for all to hear...
> If this is so Ian, can you explain why my Nokia 6600 from Voadfone is fine
> and misses no menu items?

Vodafone make little use of CSP (custom SIM profile) which allows the
SIM to control which menu options are displayed and which ones aren't.

> With regards to GSM standards, that's only part of the picture. The fact
> remains that there are differences in the way Orange operates compared to
> other networks. For example, with Orange, I would have needed a SIM update
> to make a new handset work properly. This doesn't happen with Vodafone.

Is that a bad thing?

> Whatever the reason for such differences, it is a matter of fact that Orange
> handsets often have specially commissioned software compared to the same
> handset on other networks.

Most network operators have different versions of firmware. The
differences are usually very minor, from an operational point of view.
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John Turner posted the following for all to hear...
> So something somewhere has messed up the Orange version of the Nokia 6600
> and Orange have carried on selling them despite knowing about it and knowing
> that as yet they have no resolution.

If you refer to call divert, these can easily be set using the standard
GSM codes.

How about bottom-posting and trimming?
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John Turner posted the following for all to hear...
> For instance, I was definately told that Nokia write a software version
> especially for Orange and that this is why it's their fault and not
> Orange's.

The differences in firmware are limited to the PPM pack (Post
Programmable memory) which contains things like icons and colour
schemes. For example in Orange PPMs the word 'voicemail' is replaced
with the word 'answerphone' - that is the limit of the customisation.

> I was told that the reason for the dealy in the launch of handsets compared
> to others (ie the much delayed Nokia 6310i and more recently the 6600) was
> because of 'extensive handset testing'.

The 6310i when released by Vodafone was riddled with bugs. Orange waited
for Nokie to fix the issue before going ahead with launch. The 6600 also
suffered many bugs and was delayed and delayed again but public pressure
forced the release.

> I think their staff just seem to tell a pack of lies

Not knowingly. The vast majority don't get told everything - it would be
way too much information for a regular person to hold in.
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Thanks everyone..

Chris