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  1. #16
    Steve Maillet \(eMVP\)
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    >Do you have any insight into or opinion about why Microsoft hasn't still
    >been able to transfer their strength in development tools to gaining
    >significant market share in mobile devices?


    Unfortunately these are orthogonal items. Microsoft bet on Lot's of
    functionality over and above the basic PDA capabilities of the Palm Devices
    at the time. The systems were bulkier and more expensive at first and people
    laughed saying "who needs all that extra stuff" but lo and behold - it's
    just what people wanted and developers were able to take advantage of it
    all. Same transition is happening in the phone markets. It's getting to the
    point where calling someone is almost a secondary feature of a more capable
    "Portable Device" Windows CE was designed to support that kind of system
    from the start. Other OSs were not, so it's a longer reach for them to make
    that happen. So why is WM behind? Because it's still more expensive to make
    the more feature capable devices, the technology is changing literally on a
    weekly basis, and device vendors are refusing to deal with software and OS
    updates. All of that makes people skittish about buying the new feature rich
    devices. Then there is the usability. So long as these things are sold as
    phones with the basic number keypad as the primary input mechanism they will
    continue to be overpowered phones. A new UI model is needed, so far the
    Pocket PC phone edition type devices look the best for that, but they've got
    limits as well.

    --
    Steve Maillet
    EmbeddedFusion
    www.EmbeddedFusion.com
    smaillet at EmbeddedFusion dot com





    See More: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux




  2. #17
    Steve Maillet \(eMVP\)
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    >This is a must for palm and
    >microsoft based interfaces since their OS is not able to do hard real time.

    This is FALSE, it astounds me how anyone can continue to make this claim
    after it's been shown false on many occasions over many versions of the OS.
    Windows CE (The underlying OS for Windows Mobile) IS able to support hard
    real-time systems, See the analysis performed by dedicated systems for
    details of independent tests. I've built many a real time system based on
    Windows CE.

    Linux does not have real time natively, it was never designed for that.
    There are some additions and add-ons that deal with the issue in a variety
    of different ways some commercial others GPL with varying levels of success.
    (Usually targeted for a specific industry or solution type)

    The biggest reason why the phones run with 2 processors is that the radio
    vendors want to tightly control the radio interface code and to standardize
    throughout the industry on the "AT command Set'. The radio vendors want to
    control the "stack" to protect their IP AND to protect the carriers. It's
    possible to wreak havoc on the network with the low level radio stacks. By
    having radio modules with hardened, tested and certified stacks built-in
    that a device OEM can't mess with in any way, the carriers and device
    vendors can get devices onto the network faster while maintaining network
    integrity. The OS and CPUs are perfectly capable of doing it all. But the
    security concerns keep it separate. Not a bad design really.

    --
    Steve Maillet
    EmbeddedFusion
    www.EmbeddedFusion.com
    smaillet at EmbeddedFusion dot com





  3. #18
    RobR
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    I avoided chiming in because I wasn't sure how closely related WM still is
    to CE, but yes, we built realtime high speed memory testers for Teradyne
    based on CE because of its RTOS capabilities (which NT was not
    capable of).

    "Steve Maillet (eMVP)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]
    > >This is a must for palm and
    >>microsoft based interfaces since their OS is not able to do hard real
    >>time.

    > This is FALSE, it astounds me how anyone can continue to make this claim
    > after it's been shown false on many occasions over many versions of the
    > OS. Windows CE (The underlying OS for Windows Mobile) IS able to support
    > hard real-time systems, See the analysis performed by dedicated systems
    > for details of independent tests. I've built many a real time system based
    > on Windows CE.
    >


    <stuff deleted>

    > Steve Maillet
    > EmbeddedFusion
    > www.EmbeddedFusion.com
    > smaillet at EmbeddedFusion dot com
    >
    >






  4. #19
    Sander van der Wal
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux


    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >I have a couple questions for the group.
    >
    > 1) What are the pros and cons of each of these operating systems?


    Who cares.

    > 2) Which of these PDA/Smartphone operating systems is the most likely
    > to be the dominant player in the portable computing market 3 years from
    > now and why?


    Symbian. Phone manufactures like Nokia, SonyEricsson et al don't intend to
    be commoditized by the OS vendor in the same way Microsoft commoditized the
    PC market.

    Whether that is relevant to ISV's is a different matter. For them, it is
    which phones sell software.


    --

    Sander van der Wal
    www.mBrainSoftware.com







  5. #20
    Tero Lehto
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    RobR wrote:
    > I avoided chiming in because I wasn't sure how closely related WM
    > still is to CE ....


    Is there something unclear in this? Windows Mobile is just a brand name
    which means a device based on Windows CE operating system and Pocket PC or
    Smartphone user interface (UI) that has to match different kinds of hardware
    and software requirements.

    Pocket PC and Smartphone 2003 ("Windows Mobile 2003") are based on Windows
    CE 4.2.x and Pocket PC / Smartphone 5.0 ("Windows Mobile 5.0") are based on
    Windows CE 5.0.

    The difference between Windows CE and Windows Mobile is that there are also
    other kinds of embedded Windows CE devices than Windows Mobile specified
    devices.

    A nice tour to different kinds of embedded Windows CE devices is available
    at MSDN Channel 9 archives:

    http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.as...ID=10924#10924

    Or even this is a Windows CE device: http://www.14mz.com/

    --
    Tero Lehto
    http://lehto.net/tero/





  6. #21
    Tero Lehto
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    Sander van der Wal wrote:
    > Symbian. Phone manufactures like Nokia, SonyEricsson et al don't
    > intend to be commoditized by the OS vendor in the same way Microsoft
    > commoditized the PC market.


    Do hardware manufacturers actually have the power to choose this? If large
    operators like O2, T-Mobile and Vodafone want Linux or Windows Mobile
    devices, I bet there are manufacturers who are willing to offer them.

    At the moment it seems Symbian has been the most powerful in the consumer
    smartphone segment when it comes to tempting applications and services.

    --
    Tero Lehto
    http://lehto.net/tero/





  7. #22
    Christopher Browne
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    > On 29 Oct 2005 12:46:09 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >>I have a couple questions for the group.
    >>
    >>1) What are the pros and cons of each of these operating systems?
    >>
    >>2) Which of these PDA/Smartphone operating systems is the most likely
    >>to be the dominant player in the portable computing market 3 years from
    >>now and why?

    >
    > The biggest threat to Palm and its future as an OS, in my opinion, is
    > the fact that an increasing number of devices that use it, such as the
    > Treo smartphones, are just plain crap when it comes to quality.
    >
    > I just converted to a Blackberry after having 2 Treo 600 handhelds
    > go dead on me within a year. I love the functionality of the Palm
    > OS, and the Blackberry's not as slick as I'd like it to me, but at
    > the end of the day, if a device is not reliable, what good is its
    > functionality?


    Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

    I bought my last phone based purely on considerations of battery life;
    it came with a spare cell, and had a pretty long life battery to begin
    with. It's not that I kill off battery quick; it's that the batteries
    just tend to tail off and die, even under a pretty *low* usage
    pattern.

    (My mother has a cell phone that she almost *never* uses; if often
    hasn't worked when she wanted it to because she doesn't regularly
    charge it.)

    I would certainly get pretty exorcised if I paid the huge bucks for a
    Treo phone and then watched it go dead in a year.

    We use Blackberries for oncall stuff at work; one thing that *really*
    pleases me about the model we have is that the batteries are generic
    and we can buy replacements for about $30, eminently reasonable for a
    cell battery.

    Nothing Palm offers today compares to that, simply evaluating based on
    battery handling. Forget about whether or not the Treo's are
    more/less robust; that's a separate issue.

    Actually, I get the sense that Apple has a *most* fascinating take on
    things with the iPod that may be a potent step forward.

    - You can take iCal calendar files (in a "standard" vCal format) and
    shove them in an iPod directory, and it'll turn that into an
    on-the-iPod calendar.

    - You shove pictures into a directory, and it'll display 'em.

    - You shove vCard address information into a directory and there's a
    local phonebook.

    - Shove text documents in the "Notes" directory, and you can read
    documents

    - And of course, it plays MP3s ;-).

    As far as "conversion/SYNCing" user interface is concerned, that's as
    simple a scheme as I can imagine. It's not two-way, but updating
    information on PDAs always sucked pretty bad. (And I say that as
    someone who has used Graffiti with reasonable success since the Palm
    1000.)

    The iPod approach to these "PDA" features would have the possibility
    of getting us out of the horrid interface lock-in that PDAs and cell
    phones alike have so often suffered from.

    A phone that lets you plug in SD cards with iPod style directories of
    data would be most sweet. A sort of shocking form of simplicity...
    --
    (reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc"))
    http://cbbrowne.com/info/
    If we were meant to fly, we wouldn't keep losing our luggage.



  8. #23
    Steve Maillet \(eMVP\)
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux

    >> I avoided chiming in because I wasn't sure how closely related WM
    >> still is to CE ....


    >Is there something unclear in this?

    Apparently so, a quick scan of the newsgroups indicates that's close to the
    #1 most frequently asked question. (E.g what's the difference between
    Windows Mobile/Pocket PC/Smartphone and Windows CE. Sometimes it's phrased
    differently but there's a lot of confusion as the branding for Windows
    Mobile makes little or no mention of Windows CE as the core.)

    --
    Steve Maillet
    EmbeddedFusion
    www.EmbeddedFusion.com
    smaillet at EmbeddedFusion dot com





  9. #24
    Jim Burks
    Guest

    Re: PalmOS, Symbian, Windows Mobile, Linux


    "Sander van der Wal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >>I have a couple questions for the group.


    >> 2) Which of these PDA/Smartphone operating systems is the most likely
    >> to be the dominant player in the portable computing market 3 years from
    >> now and why?

    >
    > Symbian. Phone manufactures like Nokia, SonyEricsson et al don't intend to
    > be commoditized by the OS vendor in the same way Microsoft commoditized
    > the
    > PC market.


    I wouldn't bet my company on it. Microsoft has an annoying tendency to keep
    plugging away at a market, coupled with an almost unlimited basket of cash.

    Also, the US handset market is a captive of the carriers. A
    Microsoft<->Cingular or Microsoft <->VerizonWireless alliance could catapult
    a 2nd or 3rd tier handset maker into a large position.

    Also, as more people start running apps on handhelds, and developing small
    line-of-business (custom) apps, the development platform and tools will have
    an influence.

    Don't get me wrong - I carry a Symbian handset, and it's better than the
    other smartphone offerings. But, I wouldn't place a large bet against
    Microsoft.

    Jim Burks





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