Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst ... 678910 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 145
  1. #106
    News
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.



    Alan Baker wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>
    >>>There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    >>>deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    >>>
    >>>And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    >>>should be on him or her to do so.

    >>
    >>
    >>Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.

    >
    >
    > Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >


    Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.

    How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    desired connection?

    Dumb luck?



    See More: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.




  2. #107
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Alan Baker wrote:
    > > > There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    > > > deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    > > >
    > > > And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    > > > should be on him or her to do so.

    > >
    > >
    > > Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.

    >
    > Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >
    > Put a no trespassing sign at the front of your property but leave the
    > back unsigned and unfenced and you can't expect people to know your
    > wishes.


    But neither can they come on the property and start putting up a tent
    or start a fire merely because you did not put up a sign.



  3. #108
    G.T.
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    News wrote:
    >
    >
    > Alan Baker wrote:
    >
    >> In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left
    >>>> open deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use
    >>>> them.
    >>>>
    >>>> And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    >>>> should be on him or her to do so.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.

    >>
    >>
    >> Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >>

    >
    > Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    >
    > How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    > desired connection?
    >
    > Dumb luck?


    I would probably avoid a network whose SSID had "private" in it. But
    since I have yet to see someone do that the point is moot.

    Greg
    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org



  4. #109
    G.T.
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    Kurt Ullman wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>> There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    >>>> deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    >>>>
    >>>> And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    >>>> should be on him or her to do so.
    >>>
    >>> Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.

    >> Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >>
    >> Put a no trespassing sign at the front of your property but leave the
    >> back unsigned and unfenced and you can't expect people to know your
    >> wishes.

    >
    > But neither can they come on the property and start putting up a tent
    > or start a fire merely because you did not put up a sign.


    How does one know where the property line is if there is no sign??? For
    all I know the property owner only owns the 10 meters behind his place
    even if he as improved the land beyond that 10 meters.

    Greg
    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org



  5. #110
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article <290620071153339417%[email protected]>,
    nospam <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article
    > <[email protected].net.mx>
    > , Kurt Ullman <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    > if there is no password, then one could argue it *is* deliberate. the
    > only way to disprove that is find the owner and ask (or as someone
    > mentioned, the ssid says 'private network - keep out' or somesuch).
    > furthermore, in new york, unless the owner explicitly prohibits you
    > from using it by verbal or written means, you legally *can* use it.


    IF there was a password that was default and they changed it yeah.
    Otherwise, and many have made this statement in regard to why they
    should be allowed to set up shop on someone else's network, it is also
    possibly stupidity or otherwise. Again, just because I am dumb enough to
    leave my door unlocked doesn't give you the right to come and cook
    yourself lunch.


    >
    > > > If you feel that way, why would you broadcast it to your neighbors
    > > > without
    > > > securing it? Don't forget that the mechanism that you are using to
    > > > deliver
    > > > those photons to your neighbors with is public spectrum. Again, I do not
    > > > agree this is like criminal trespass on real property.
    > > >

    > > Stupidity, laziness, any number of other reasons that don't make
    > > it less of a crime the way the law seems to be written.

    >
    > quite the contrary. in at least two states, not securing the network
    > puts the burden onto the owner of the network for any intrustion.


    Fine with that. Unless the Fed Act supersedes it. Most of this deals
    with the originator of this thread saying that it could never happen. I
    am merely discussing some scenarios where it could happen. Again, most
    of my discussions have been prefaced with how the laws (even for
    trespass, etc.) are written. Also that YMMV depending on the state rules
    (without a Fed Statute taking jurisdiction.

    >
    > > BTW: Cell phones also use the public spectrum and it is not legal
    > > to own equipment (admittedly manufactured after a certain date) that
    > > picks it up even if in the clear.

    >
    > entirely different. up until the cellphone industry lobbied for a
    > change to the communications act, it *was* perfectly legal to pick up
    > cell phone calls (and any other non-encrypted transmission for that
    > matter). the airwaves are public. if you don't want anyone to listen,
    > then don't transmit it, or at least encrypt it.



    The person I was responding to said if it was on the public
    airwaves it was public property. I was illustrating an instance where
    that doesn't hold.

    >
    > one could also argue that the network owner is sending the signals into
    > someone elses property and into a computer that is known to
    > automatically connect to open networks (standard configuration for mac
    > & windows machines). thus, the network owner is at fault. don't
    > underestimate what a clever attorney can do.


    Which is why I have stated many times that the interpretation from
    the courts was even more important that what the law seems to say.



  6. #111
    Alan Baker
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Alan Baker wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>Alan Baker wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    > >>>deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    > >>>
    > >>>And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    > >>>should be on him or her to do so.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.

    > >
    > >
    > > Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    > >

    >
    > Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    >
    > How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    > desired connection?
    >
    > Dumb luck?



    "Connect automatically to open networks".

    --
    Alan Baker
    Vancouver, British Columbia
    "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
    to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
    sit in the bottom of that cupboard."



  7. #112
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    > How does one know where the property line is if there is no sign??? For
    > all I know the property owner only owns the 10 meters behind his place
    > even if he as improved the land beyond that 10 meters.
    >

    Try it and let me know how it works out, okay (g)?



  8. #113
    Alan Baker
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article
    <[email protected].net.mx
    >,

    Kurt Ullman <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Alan Baker wrote:
    > > > > There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left
    > > > > open
    > > > > deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    > > > >
    > > > > And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    > > > > should be on him or her to do so.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.

    > >
    > > Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    > >
    > > Put a no trespassing sign at the front of your property but leave the
    > > back unsigned and unfenced and you can't expect people to know your
    > > wishes.

    >
    > But neither can they come on the property and start putting up a tent
    > or start a fire merely because you did not put up a sign.


    Even if I accepted that that was correct, it's not germane.

    --
    Alan Baker
    Vancouver, British Columbia
    "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
    to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
    sit in the bottom of that cupboard."



  9. #114
    News
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.



    Alan Baker wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    >>>>>deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    >>>>>should be on him or her to do so.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >>>

    >>
    >>Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    >>
    >>How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    >>desired connection?
    >>
    >>Dumb luck?

    >
    >
    >
    > "Connect automatically to open networks".
    >


    Aha. Which would preclude connection to any WPA/WEP secured network
    whose SSID indicated "PRIVATE".



  10. #115
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >>>Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    > >>
    > >>How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    > >>desired connection?
    > >>
    > >>Dumb luck?

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Connect automatically to open networks".
    > >

    >
    > Aha. Which would preclude connection to any WPA/WEP secured network
    > whose SSID indicated "PRIVATE".


    Right, but I think his point is that merely putting the word
    private in SSID, which was the original suggestion, would not
    automatically mean that the person connecting would see the ONLY
    indication of privacy.



  11. #116
    nospam
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article
    <[email protected].net.mx>
    , Kurt Ullman <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > if there is no password, then one could argue it *is* deliberate. the
    > > only way to disprove that is find the owner and ask (or as someone
    > > mentioned, the ssid says 'private network - keep out' or somesuch).
    > > furthermore, in new york, unless the owner explicitly prohibits you
    > > from using it by verbal or written means, you legally *can* use it.

    >
    > IF there was a password that was default and they changed it yeah.
    > Otherwise, and many have made this statement in regard to why they
    > should be allowed to set up shop on someone else's network, it is also
    > possibly stupidity or otherwise. Again, just because I am dumb enough to
    > leave my door unlocked doesn't give you the right to come and cook
    > yourself lunch.


    that analagy does not apply since there is an expectation of privacy
    regardless of the door being locked or unlocked (or even open). people
    don't regularly just walk into other people's houses.

    a better analagy is if you are running a sprinkler to water your lawn
    and some of it oversprays the sidewalk and street. suppose it is a
    blistering hot summer day - is it illegal for someone to stand on the
    public sidewalk (not on your property) and cool off, benefitting from
    your water?

    > > > BTW: Cell phones also use the public spectrum and it is not legal
    > > > to own equipment (admittedly manufactured after a certain date) that
    > > > picks it up even if in the clear.

    > >
    > > entirely different. up until the cellphone industry lobbied for a
    > > change to the communications act, it *was* perfectly legal to pick up
    > > cell phone calls (and any other non-encrypted transmission for that
    > > matter). the airwaves are public. if you don't want anyone to listen,
    > > then don't transmit it, or at least encrypt it.

    >
    > The person I was responding to said if it was on the public
    > airwaves it was public property. I was illustrating an instance where
    > that doesn't hold.


    unlike cellphones, as far as i know, there are no laws that explicity
    prohibit using public wifi networks. there is some debate as to what a
    public wifi network *is*, however.

    > > one could also argue that the network owner is sending the signals into
    > > someone elses property and into a computer that is known to
    > > automatically connect to open networks (standard configuration for mac
    > > & windows machines). thus, the network owner is at fault. don't
    > > underestimate what a clever attorney can do.

    >
    > Which is why I have stated many times that the interpretation from
    > the courts was even more important that what the law seems to say.


    true. and there haven't been any test cases yet. so far, the
    perpetrators have committed something else, like credit card fraud,
    child porn, etc.



  12. #117
    News
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.



    Kurt Ullman wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>>>Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    >>>>
    >>>>How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    >>>>desired connection?
    >>>>
    >>>>Dumb luck?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>"Connect automatically to open networks".
    >>>

    >>
    >>Aha. Which would preclude connection to any WPA/WEP secured network
    >>whose SSID indicated "PRIVATE".

    >
    >
    > Right, but I think his point is that merely putting the word
    > private in SSID, which was the original suggestion, would not
    > automatically mean that the person connecting would see the ONLY
    > indication of privacy.


    If purely blindly connecting, perhaps.

    Why would anyone do that, with honeypots galore.



  13. #118
    Alan Baker
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.

    In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Alan Baker wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>Alan Baker wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    > >>>>>deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    > >>>>>should be on him or her to do so.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    > >>
    > >>How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    > >>desired connection?
    > >>
    > >>Dumb luck?

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Connect automatically to open networks".
    > >

    >
    > Aha. Which would preclude connection to any WPA/WEP secured network
    > whose SSID indicated "PRIVATE".


    Yes.

    If a network isn't open, it isn't open.

    That's very good.

    --
    Alan Baker
    Vancouver, British Columbia
    "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
    to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
    sit in the bottom of that cupboard."



  14. #119
    News
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.



    Alan Baker wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    >>>>>>>deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    >>>>>>>should be on him or her to do so.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    >>>>
    >>>>How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    >>>>desired connection?
    >>>>
    >>>>Dumb luck?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>"Connect automatically to open networks".
    >>>

    >>
    >>Aha. Which would preclude connection to any WPA/WEP secured network
    >>whose SSID indicated "PRIVATE".

    >
    >
    > Yes.
    >
    > If a network isn't open, it isn't open.
    >
    > That's very good.
    >



    Right. So anyone attempting to access a closed network is -- what?



  15. #120
    News
    Guest

    Re: Activating an iPhone - Made SIMPLE by Apple.



    Alan Baker wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>In article <[email protected]>, News <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Alan Baker wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left
    >>>>>>>>>open
    >>>>>>>>>deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>And since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus
    >>>>>>>>>should be on him or her to do so.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>Which is why the word "PRIVATE" appears in SSIDs.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Sorry, but SSIDs aren't read by humans most of the time.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Really? You must have the only setup that doesn't indicate SSID.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>How do you know to what you are connecting, and whether it is the
    >>>>>>desired connection?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Dumb luck?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>"Connect automatically to open networks".
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Aha. Which would preclude connection to any WPA/WEP secured network
    >>>>whose SSID indicated "PRIVATE".
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Yes.
    >>>
    >>>If a network isn't open, it isn't open.
    >>>
    >>>That's very good.
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>Right. So anyone attempting to access a closed network is -- what?

    >
    >
    > But we haven't been discussing closed networks.
    >



    I guess I must have misinterpreted your earlier comment:

    "Alan Baker wrote:

    There is nothing to differentiate Wi-Fi access points that are left open
    deliberately from ones where the owner doesn't want you to use them. And
    since the owner can easily provide such an indication, the onus should
    be on him or her to do so."



Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst ... 678910 LastLast